What's the best elder model to unburden our own children

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All this makes one try to figure out what the best model may be to ensure our own children aren't burdened with our care.

Just talking out loud, curious on thoughts on:

- Move into a 55+ community that provides soups-to-nuts living arrangements...independent living when still capable, assisted living when the time comes, and nursing care when the time comes. Thinking that since elderly are resistant to change, it won't feel scary to just move a couple blocks up the street when the time comes, and perhaps these places have a more extensive network of elder care workers if in fact you wanted to stay in your home;

- Pick a community near where at least one of your kids live...or pick a community in a "vacation" type location...either a place that is convenient for kids to visit or they want to visit;

- Maybe not choose a 55+ commmunity...but maybe a community affiliated with an assisted living/nursing kind of facility, so no restrictions on who can live in the independent living area, but again, when the time comes you must move across the street (do these places exist?);

- Seems like once most people hit a certain age, their capability to make decisions freezes...so maybe make a pact to make the move no later than 70?

- Have honest conversations with your kids when say you are 60 and the kids are 30, about your plans for the above?

- Feels like burdening your heirs with real estate is a major pain-in-the-ass...perhaps best to plan to sell your house at some point and then rent? Or maybe, plan to have your house down to a minimalist kind of situation?

I guess it just seems like our parents are maybe the last generation (or maybe it's the boomers) where you either didn't have a plan, or you didn't include your children in a plan...and now things are mess.

Any other ideas so we don't make the mistakes of our parents?

Move into a CCRC when still healthy. Pay the large upfront entry fee so all "higher level care" is fully covered without a price increase (well okay, the only price increase is paying for 3 full meals a day versus 1-1.5 that's currently included).
My parents were LMC, frugal and saved as much as they could. We had to pay the $400K+ entry fee but they qualified for the smallest 2 bedroom/2 bath at a very nice facility. But now they have spent 5 years in independent living, are more social, no longer have yard work or home maintenance, and we know they are well cared for. If either needs nursing care/memory care/assisted living, the transition would happen within a day. The other would be able to visit them by walking inside the complex. If possible, the healthy one could bring them to the apartment for part of day and meals (sometime possible with even early memory care) but return them so they are safe the rest of the day.

IMO everyone should attempt to enter a CCRC by early 70s. Also, should they "run out of money" they will never have to pay anymore to the facility and still get to live there. They facility does not touch SS income. Currently there are 4 members who have "run out of money" all are women 95+ (spouses have passed already). 2 are still in independent living, the other 2 are in advanced care. And it's true, you don't pay anything else. THat's what the high entry fee is for---to cover advanced care and someone living well into their 90s (most people don't and they make more from the entry fee).

Do all these facilities run the same way, or is it really you need to read the fine print of all CCRCs?

What are the main reasons to pay the big up-front fee? Is it the guarantee of a place at all levels of care? Is it that they can't kick you out if you don't pay? Are all activities usually included with your monthly fee in independent living? Any level of meals usually part of the monthly independent living fee?

I assume there must be some NW test or other kind of vetting they perform, correct? I doubt they would accept someone who can only pay the up-front fee and a year of independent living as an example.

The ones I've looked at do require thorough financial disclosures, exactly because they don't want residents who managed to scrape together the entry fee but will have trouble making other payments.

My mother's will allow IL residents to move into a smaller unit if they experience a life event that reduces their income (usually the death of a spouse). A few residents run out of money, and they are allowed to stay, but the vast, vast majority outlive their money. These are prudent people.

Note that some CCRC’s are not now guaranteeing a place for life if you run out of money. Read the fine print. Have a lawyer read it. And some have just started doing this so different residents have different contracts, depending upon when they came in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All this makes one try to figure out what the best model may be to ensure our own children aren't burdened with our care.

Just talking out loud, curious on thoughts on:

- Move into a 55+ community that provides soups-to-nuts living arrangements...independent living when still capable, assisted living when the time comes, and nursing care when the time comes. Thinking that since elderly are resistant to change, it won't feel scary to just move a couple blocks up the street when the time comes, and perhaps these places have a more extensive network of elder care workers if in fact you wanted to stay in your home;

- Pick a community near where at least one of your kids live...or pick a community in a "vacation" type location...either a place that is convenient for kids to visit or they want to visit;

- Maybe not choose a 55+ commmunity...but maybe a community affiliated with an assisted living/nursing kind of facility, so no restrictions on who can live in the independent living area, but again, when the time comes you must move across the street (do these places exist?);

- Seems like once most people hit a certain age, their capability to make decisions freezes...so maybe make a pact to make the move no later than 70?

- Have honest conversations with your kids when say you are 60 and the kids are 30, about your plans for the above?

- Feels like burdening your heirs with real estate is a major pain-in-the-ass...perhaps best to plan to sell your house at some point and then rent? Or maybe, plan to have your house down to a minimalist kind of situation?

I guess it just seems like our parents are maybe the last generation (or maybe it's the boomers) where you either didn't have a plan, or you didn't include your children in a plan...and now things are mess.

Any other ideas so we don't make the mistakes of our parents?

Move into a CCRC when still healthy. Pay the large upfront entry fee so all "higher level care" is fully covered without a price increase (well okay, the only price increase is paying for 3 full meals a day versus 1-1.5 that's currently included).
My parents were LMC, frugal and saved as much as they could. We had to pay the $400K+ entry fee but they qualified for the smallest 2 bedroom/2 bath at a very nice facility. But now they have spent 5 years in independent living, are more social, no longer have yard work or home maintenance, and we know they are well cared for. If either needs nursing care/memory care/assisted living, the transition would happen within a day. The other would be able to visit them by walking inside the complex. If possible, the healthy one could bring them to the apartment for part of day and meals (sometime possible with even early memory care) but return them so they are safe the rest of the day.

IMO everyone should attempt to enter a CCRC by early 70s. Also, should they "run out of money" they will never have to pay anymore to the facility and still get to live there. They facility does not touch SS income. Currently there are 4 members who have "run out of money" all are women 95+ (spouses have passed already). 2 are still in independent living, the other 2 are in advanced care. And it's true, you don't pay anything else. THat's what the high entry fee is for---to cover advanced care and someone living well into their 90s (most people don't and they make more from the entry fee).

Do all these facilities run the same way, or is it really you need to read the fine print of all CCRCs?

What are the main reasons to pay the big up-front fee? Is it the guarantee of a place at all levels of care? Is it that they can't kick you out if you don't pay? Are all activities usually included with your monthly fee in independent living? Any level of meals usually part of the monthly independent living fee?

I assume there must be some NW test or other kind of vetting they perform, correct? I doubt they would accept someone who can only pay the up-front fee and a year of independent living as an example.

You need to read the fine print and make sure you know what you are purchasing.

For my parents, there were 3 paths: one with a really large upfront fee and you get at least 50% back guaranteed upon death of both, 2nd with a large entry fee ($425K for the smallest 2 bed/2bath my parents selected) with the guaranteed all healthcare/advanced care fully funded and you can never run out of money, 3rd for $300K entry fee, but you pay fee for the services beyond Independent living.

Number 2 is worth it if even one of your parents need advanced care for 1 year or more. If one requires it, the other can remain in the same 2bedroom (or downgrade for lower monthly fee but it's not worth it or required) for the same rates (with the currently monthly price). If they go to memory care, assisted living or nursing care, all they pay additional is for the extra meals for that person (or both if they both go) . Most facilities are 10-14K/month for that, hence my ~1Year break even point.
If my parents run out of money (they might around 90), they don't owe anything and get to keep living there the same way. This only includes their investments---not SS monthly. So they can still afford to pay for medicare, medical bills and medications and other basic living expenses (groceries, toiletries, cable, mobile phone, etc). Seems like a good deal to me. We are 3K miles away, parents want to stay in area they have lived for 45+ years. I want them to be well cared for and not have to worry about finding the next level care when one takes a fall or has medical issue. I like that they will always be in the same facility, so they can visit each other daily once one is not in independent living---IMO elderly start to decline rapidly when they cannot see their immediate family (as in spouse or whomever they are used to seeing daily/weekly/etc). Also I know for a fact that this financial stuff is all true--there are currently 4 residents who dont pay monthly anymore. Only a few make it to that---the actuarial process of calculating the entry fees obviously is setup for the CCRC to make money on most residents. But for peace of mind it's worth it.

Independent living monthly fees include all utilities(Ac and heat), all maintenance, all appliances (and maintenance), bi-weekly house cleaning, internet, cable tv, fitness center and swimming pool (indoor) along with tons of classes and activities, on campus shuttle service, shuttles to doctors for minimal fees (parents had to use it finally a few months ago---4 hours door to door was $31.26--they wait for you at your appts), and a dollar amount for dining each month and so much more. They have outdoor walking areas in nature, farm to table concept and the local garden to support it. Residents can help with it or have their own gardens.
They also have doctor/dentist/hairdresser/etc on site. Not included in your fees, but was very nice during covid to not have to venture out beyond the property.
The dining works out to one dinner daily at the buffet restaurant per person and enough left for probably 2-3 other meals each week (breakfast or lunch). They also have a fancier sit down restaurant and that is a bit pricier. There are also people who eat 3 meals a day with it---as an egg sandwich with meat and coffee is $3 from the Counter bar. And if you eat salad bar and soup bar (unlimited) for lunch or dinner it's cheaper than the full buffet. So there are a few elderly men (widowers) who manage to eat all 3 meals there daily without having to pay much more. In reality I think dinner at the buffet is only $9

If you go to care more than IL, you have to pay the cost for 3 meals per day (or rather the added 2 or so).

You have to do a full physical before being admitted. They are not going to admit someone who appears to not be able to do independent living for 4-5 years at that point. That is why you need to enter while still healthy. My parents have been there over 5 years---once we convinced them to sell the house and do this, we jumped on the opportunity before they could change their mind. They love it and are forever grateful we encouraged this.

Very helpful. Thank you.

A small point…but are guests allowed to stay in the IL part? If you have a 2BR, are guests allowed in the spare for a couple days?

yes of course! they also have 1 or 2 rentable guest suites if you want to stay on campus near a relative. I prefer to stay in a hotel when I visit but my parents always ask If I want to rent one of the suites (their 2nd bedroom is setup as an office/library and there is no bed)

I hear some CCRCs limit how many days out of the year you can have guests, but it’s an effort to ensure that you aren’t subletting a bedroom or providing free housing to a family member.

Someone my mom knows stayed with his parents for a month after he was released from inpatient treatment for depression. The CCRC didn’t make him move out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess it's like fraternity hazing...I had to deal with it with my parents, so guess what kids, you will deal with the same shit with me.

This is my mom’s philosophy, and I kind of hate her for it.

But this is life. My DH was very involved in his mother's care (she died at 100), and yes it was very burdensome even though she and FIL did all the right things: downsizing from house to 55+ community (in their 70s), to a second community closer to us, to assisted living, with lots of swedish death cleaning at every step. FIL was an attorney with absolutely every thing planned for, including a perfectly executed trust and enough money to cover costs (though it was close to running out when MIL died). It was still very burdensome, because caring for someone always is. MIL still needed someone to shop for her, help her with doctors appointments, and simply be there for her. She was bedridden and lonely and needed emotional support a good deal of the time.

Here's the thing that our cold, callous, self-centered culture seems to have forgotten: Elderly people need their families just like children do. There is no way around it, no matter how we try.

I agree. However, my parents refuse to move closer to us (and my sibling doesn't live near them and wouldn't be much help even if they did). So we did the next best thing and put them into a CCRC (Four Seasons level--top notch) that they love. Can't force them to move closer (we are 3K miles away and 2 flights). So we get them the best care we can without us being around constantly. I wish they would move near us, but I cannot force that. So I visit a few times a year and talk several times per week. our kids also have been making trips to visit them (they are in college and out on their own). But this way I know they will be getting the best quality care we can manage from afar

[Anonymous]

I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

Think of how lonely it is when you are elderly and you live with your child and their spouse. They leave home at 8 and come home in the evening. You are alone all day. When your child and spouse come home they have worked all day and want to relax, run errands, deal with kids. With two parent working families it is depressing for many elderly people. My mother had a stroke and first she tried living with my brother but was quite depressed then came to live with me and just slept all day and didn't eat. She moved to an independent/assisted living apartment in a community of about 200. She drastically improved. She went on day bus tours to museums, the movies, and other activities. She played bingo Tuesday and Saturdays and went to other classes the other days. She ate lunch and dinner in the restaurant with friends everyday.

Multi-generational homes work well if one parent doesn't work and you can afford help. My grandmother lived in another country with her daughter (my aunt) who doesn't work. They had a maid for the house and a part-time maid for my grandmother. My aunt's kids lived close -one next door, one a block away and the other one 5 miles away so there were always people popping in to eat and say hi. That set-up seems great but doesn't really happen in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

In addition to PP's excellent points, the fact that you live there doesn't mean you aren't ever allowed to leave. Plenty of people, especially in IL, are still traveling, volunteering, etc. Some are even still working, especially if they moved into the CCRC with an older spouse.

If you lived in one, you could take classes that would teach you to use "comprise" correctly. And then, filled with pride in your accomplishment, you could go through life with less self-loathing, even when you, too, get old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

Not when you are 75+. These people are active, many social events. My parents are more social now than when they lived in their house. Swim aerobic classes, chair yoga, etc---tons of classes to keep them active. Chorus groups, knitting, games, you name it they have it. I've seen 2 100+ yo with the Tuesday knitting group---would not know those ladies were 100+, most likely because of the social activities to keep them young (both still living in IL and very active for their age).
It's quiet after 8/9pm, not that it's ever very loud. Everyone eats by 6:30pm, so when you go to dinner at 5 everyone is there.

The Independent living part is very nice.

There is at least one family where the "parents" are in their 90s and in Ind Living in an apartment, and the "kid and her husband" just moved into a Duplex within last year (she is 68). Know them because my mom used to work for her and I worked summers for her. So they have all the services and activities available, but still live in a "house" (duplex) and a bit more away from it all feel at their "young age". But mom (dad has passed) is 5 mins away so they can see her daily.

Right now in my 50s, I wouldn't want to be in one. But I would definately consider one by mid 70s. However, we are UHNW so can/could afford to stay at home if we choose with full time care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

Think of how lonely it is when you are elderly and you live with your child and their spouse. They leave home at 8 and come home in the evening. You are alone all day. When your child and spouse come home they have worked all day and want to relax, run errands, deal with kids. With two parent working families it is depressing for many elderly people. My mother had a stroke and first she tried living with my brother but was quite depressed then came to live with me and just slept all day and didn't eat. She moved to an independent/assisted living apartment in a community of about 200. She drastically improved. She went on day bus tours to museums, the movies, and other activities. She played bingo Tuesday and Saturdays and went to other classes the other days. She ate lunch and dinner in the restaurant with friends everyday.

Multi-generational homes work well if one parent doesn't work and you can afford help. My grandmother lived in another country with her daughter (my aunt) who doesn't work. They had a maid for the house and a part-time maid for my grandmother. My aunt's kids lived close -one next door, one a block away and the other one 5 miles away so there were always people popping in to eat and say hi. That set-up seems great but doesn't really happen in the US.

Exactly! I see the 90+ and 100+ residents at my parent's CCRC and they are so active, relatively speaking. I attribute this to them socializing and having fun activities to do. There are onsite activities, as well as Field trips if you so desire (They go to shows, museums, and a variety of activities for an extra fee---but you get transported there with the group). You get to eat meals with others, sit and play games.

My parents were never social, only went to church activities and work. Never had people over. Now they have 4-6 people they routinely eat meals with, mom knits with others, dad has game groups and other activities with groups of 15+ people. It definately helps keep you young and mentally active (which is key to helping stave off dementia--can't prevent it, but certainly helps). They are much better off with all this than living alone (no family nearby).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

I thought this too till I took a tour with my parents. It was like a mini college campus. There were lots of activities, clubs, and social events. The dining options were quite good. It was not like a nursing home where people are just waiting to die.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

I thought this too till I took a tour with my parents. It was like a mini college campus. There were lots of activities, clubs, and social events. The dining options were quite good. It was not like a nursing home where people are just waiting to die.

And IMO the most important part is that you are guaranteed a Smooth transition (in a CCRC) to the higher level of care. Meaning, the IL living spouse can Walk (all inside) to see their spouse in higher level care. They can even (if appropriate) take them "out and back to IL" for the day under their own supervision (if at a lower level of memory care or assisted living). Being able to see your spouse daily is huge for both spouses wanting to stay alive and being content.

I've heard of too many friends whose parents end up at different facilities and you have to make an effort to transport them for a few hours on weekends to see each other.

Also even in the higher level care, it's more enjoyable when you likely already know some of your fellow residents from IL times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

I thought this too till I took a tour with my parents. It was like a mini college campus. There were lots of activities, clubs, and social events. The dining options were quite good. It was not like a nursing home where people are just waiting to die.

And IMO the most important part is that you are guaranteed a Smooth transition (in a CCRC) to the higher level of care. Meaning, the IL living spouse can Walk (all inside) to see their spouse in higher level care. They can even (if appropriate) take them "out and back to IL" for the day under their own supervision (if at a lower level of memory care or assisted living). Being able to see your spouse daily is huge for both spouses wanting to stay alive and being content.

I've heard of too many friends whose parents end up at different facilities and you have to make an effort to transport them for a few hours on weekends to see each other.

Also even in the higher level care, it's more enjoyable when you likely already know some of your fellow residents from IL times.

You just want to check, however, about the costs when one spouse moves to higher level care. The prices can change. My ILs waited too long to move into one of these places (e.g., into a a 1 or 2 BR unit) and now can’t do so as MiL does not qualify as independent living, even if they have FT help. They can’t afford to pay for one of them to be in IL and one to be in memory care.

That said, my mom thrived when she made the pivot from living alone to one of these residences. She simply needed more socialization than what she could get remaining in her house. Even the staff commented on it as that is not everyone’s experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

Not when you are 75+. These people are active, many social events. My parents are more social now than when they lived in their house. Swim aerobic classes, chair yoga, etc---tons of classes to keep them active. Chorus groups, knitting, games, you name it they have it. I've seen 2 100+ yo with the Tuesday knitting group---would not know those ladies were 100+, most likely because of the social activities to keep them young (both still living in IL and very active for their age).
It's quiet after 8/9pm, not that it's ever very loud. Everyone eats by 6:30pm, so when you go to dinner at 5 everyone is there.

The Independent living part is very nice.

There is at least one family where the "parents" are in their 90s and in Ind Living in an apartment, and the "kid and her husband" just moved into a Duplex within last year (she is 68). Know them because my mom used to work for her and I worked summers for her. So they have all the services and activities available, but still live in a "house" (duplex) and a bit more away from it all feel at their "young age". But mom (dad has passed) is 5 mins away so they can see her daily.

Right now in my 50s, I wouldn't want to be in one. But I would definately consider one by mid 70s. However, we are UHNW so can/could afford to stay at home if we choose with full time care.

Seems like that may be too late (I guess depending on your physical shape?). I appreciate that your financial situation allows you more flexibility...but I wonder is this something you seriously think about at 70? What would anyone guess is the average age?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

Why would being around your peers be depressing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are closing an estate right now and it's not something I don't want my kids to have to do. I will have as few possessions as possible except an investment account that will have a beneficiary.
I'm moving abroad where eldercare is much cheaper and social services are great. Not a punishment; I want to move there.
I will not burden my kids with real estate, burial, or anything else that takes their time and effort.
Before I disappear abroad in about 25 years, I want to be able to watch my grand-kids for free if parents need help.
Ofcourse updating my plans as time passes.
I'm not into 55+ communities. I want to see and meet people of all ages. I'm fine in a small condo.

How are you doing this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the idea of living in a community solely comprised of old people to be profoundly depressing.

I thought this too till I took a tour with my parents. It was like a mini college campus. There were lots of activities, clubs, and social events. The dining options were quite good. It was not like a nursing home where people are just waiting to die.

And IMO the most important part is that you are guaranteed a Smooth transition (in a CCRC) to the higher level of care. Meaning, the IL living spouse can Walk (all inside) to see their spouse in higher level care. They can even (if appropriate) take them "out and back to IL" for the day under their own supervision (if at a lower level of memory care or assisted living). Being able to see your spouse daily is huge for both spouses wanting to stay alive and being content.

I've heard of too many friends whose parents end up at different facilities and you have to make an effort to transport them for a few hours on weekends to see each other.

Also even in the higher level care, it's more enjoyable when you likely already know some of your fellow residents from IL times.

I wish my parents had enough savings for a CCRC for exactly this reason. My dad will be in memory care soon, and my mom will be driving every day to visit. I know that will take a toll on her. She will feel compelled to visit and spend lots of time there or else feel guilty, but what is she going to do when she visits? Sit there and listen to all the residents talk nonsense? It's going to be soul crushing. I wish they could be in a CCRC or some other facility with mixed care levels. She could instead visit a few times a day but for short visits just to make contact and check in. Or bring him back to her apartment to visit with the dog, but then return him to memory care if he gets agitated or overly confused.

There is a higher end CCRC near me that is like a college dorm or campus like a PP mentioned, and that is my retirement goal.