Daughter's Behavior Toward Parent/Family and Attitude vs Gratitude

[Anonymous]

I like most of your intended discussion with your DD. I would put it in writing, and probably online. This is because it is so much to digest; it needs to be reviewed; re-read...and probably bounced off her peers who will cool her off.

My DH needed to have a hard conversation with my SIL, years ago. He put it in an email. I didn't like that there would be a record, frozen in time. But he planned for that. He did this because he said, if he spoke with her, her memory of the conversation would be all twisted, and only parts of it would be retained. But in an email, she can read it 100 times, and every single time, it would say the same thing, nothing more, nothing less.

Now with respect to paying for her college, just pay it OP. You are choosing to put your foot down at the wrong time and it's too strong a punishment. Just get her fledged and on the road to living independently. If she's still horrible, after the teen hormones etc die down, then you can then withold financially and there will be no boomerang-to-your-basement effect.

And remember, teens push hard against their parents to make sure they are there for them, and she is pushing really hard, probably because she feels (rightly or wrongly) that you've abandoned her in the past. She is probably highly verbal, and the highly verbal girls are the worst. Because any skill or ability a teen has can be weaponized; in this case, she's weaponized her mouth. It can be rough. But she may not even know it--that she is testing you, daring you to abandon her again. Don't abandon her. Be her rock.

[Anonymous]

OP, it’s great that you are really thinking about this and open to ideas. I am confused reading what you proposed to say to your DD as to whether the college money is conditioned on improved behavior or not. And if I can’t tell what you mean it’s not likely she will be clear on it either. What does “I will not stand for this vicious behavior” actually mean? I like the condition of therapy, with her therapist if she wants, and the focus on process and trying to heal the relationship rather than results. But beyond going to therapy, what consequence do you envision for continued mean behavior? Aunt won’t want to be around her? You won’t want to be around her? Unfortunately, because of the divorce, any withdrawing on your end risks “confirming” the “he doesn’t really love me/want me/care about me” feelings from the divorce. That may be completely unfair, and between 25 and 40 she may figure out how many things you did to try to make the whole thing as easy as possible for her, but teen hormones and lack of long-term vision is ABSOLUTELY at play here. I love your reference to Good Will Hunting. That is really a perfect comparison to what you’re going through. And like Will she is, ultimately, a scared kid who doesn’t really know what the f she’s talking about. It’s good if you can maintain that perspective.

She may also be scared about going to college. Scared of failing to measure up at her “dream” school, scared of moving away from home, etc. A part of her might be trying to sabotage the college dream with the excuse of “can’t pay for it” rather than worry about whether she can really hack it. Again, like the divorce issues, these are possible unconscious motivations that may or may not actually be why this particular kid is acting out in this particular way. It’s also possible she was raped or suffered some other significant trauma she’s hiding from the family. Not necessarily likely, but there’s something she’s hiding/afraid to say that hurts. And it’s interfering with your relationship with her. And maybe it’s concrete like a rape or maybe she won’t even understand it until she’s 30 because it’s mixed up feelings left over from the divorce that she just doesn’t have the capacity to fully understand right now.

Good luck. I like to believe some day she will appreciate your perspective much better than she does right now and see what you tried to do for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP of this thread.

I truly want to thank everyone for your input. I read every single response and definitely got something valuable from each. I REALLY appreciate your time and input and I have learned a lot that I think will go a long way in helping my situation.

When I checked back in yesterday, there were over 50 responses and I read through all of them. I considered responding right away but I had a busy Sunday and went about my day while I digested and thought about everything.

I woke up this morning and, after reading again, chose to respond because I see a lot of other parents who also deal with a shocking level of disrespect and/or entitlement (from our otherwise wonderful kids, who we all love more than anything), and I think the dialogue is valuable.

First of all, though others have speculated that I have replied above as “OP-pretending-to-be-NP”, or am another poster on the board outed as a “single-not single” guy in another thread, neither is the case. This is my first response since the original post. Also - I’m the DAD here (some people thought I was female).

As I was writing the original post, I kind of expected a wide range of responses that skewed toward “You’re the problem and you are being completely unreasonable…” and “You’re a horrible person and I see why your kid hates you”.

That’s fine, I am totally open to that and why I chose to post and ask for input. I wanted to check myself and learn how others (outside of my real-life circle) deal with this.

After reading through the whole thread again this morning, I want to clarify a few things because the responses indicate I either didn’t communicate clearly, or people are making incorrect assumptions:

This isn’t about money. This is about kindness and respect. If I had 10 Billion dollars in the bank my issues and feelings would be exactly the same (I am not wealthy and live below middle class). I believe it’s our duty as parents to teach kindness, respect, family connection, and empathy. Supporting disrespect teaches the opposite.

Her behavior has been at times atrocious and almost unforgivable. Not always, but many times (see original post). I can’t even print the types of things she has said here. Trust me, this is not someone spun up emotionally and out of control on teenage hormones. These are things that sting two years later and were said to parents, grandparents, and extended relatives (several of whom now want little to do with her). And just when I may get to a place of forgetting and forgiveness, another bomb drops and everything comes back.

I have always planned to pay for my daughter’s education. In fact I’ve been looking forward to it since becoming a parent. I am currently pursuing a much better paying career position to be able to pay and even willing to dip substantially into my retirement savings. This commitment applies even if my ex refuses to pay anything.

I have done extensive personal work through therapy and support groups. This has been invaluable. I also begged to get my ex to do some sessions so we could be better co-parents, but she refused. I want to do some sessions with D17 (and have said this) which I hope happens before she leaves for school.

My position applies to attitude toward her mother as well. I have taken the position that D17 is not allowed to talk to mom this way either. If I see or hear of her talking to or treating mom this way, I will impose consequences and punishment on my own, regardless of what her mom does. If this results in 2 punishments for one crime, so be it.

When it comes to expenses for great opportunities I have always said yes. I have never denied her anything important (like school/summer trips and programs at Harvard, NYU, & Tufts), despite her disrespect or even refusal to talk to me. I have always paid the vast majority share and never said no, even though our decree states all expenses are EQUALLY shared.

The divorce happened during her early teen years and I COMPLETELY understand this is a huge component here. I’ve done my best to be gentle and love her through it. I have NEVER turned my back on her and my door and heart have always been wide open. But it’s new territory to me because my parents were married to the end and there is barely any divorce in my family tree.

I absolutely own my share of the responsibility for the marriage failing. I am not proud of this and the divorce is probably my single regret in life. But it takes two to make a marriage fail and while I will own 50% of the blame, I will not own 51%. Regardless what she says or thinks, my ex owns the other 50%.

I have never EVER said one negative thing about her mom (my ex) in front of her. And I never ever will. However, my ex did the opposite; she involved and empowered her in the divorce by almost treating her like a friend instead of a parent. I fear I will spend the rest of my life dealing with this.

I begged for divorce mediation but my ex insisted on lawyers and litigation. I was self represented (because I was terrified of the legal fees) while my ex got a large powerful firm to represent her. My ex wanted almost full custody of D and the ONE thing I said was non-negotiable was 50/50 - but she spent 100k of our money in legal fees fighting this. I stood my ground and guess what? We have 50/50 custody.

Anyways… I felt these things were worth clarifying.

==============

After thinking things through, this is probably how I’m going to proceed:(and I'm open to your thoughts)

If I can get her to have a conversation where she will actually hear me, I’m going to say:

“I love you more than anything and that will never change. I think you may have the wrong impression that I’m not going to contribute to your college, which is the farthest thing from the truth. I very much want to and have planned to all along.”

“As you are applying to your schools, I am also going through the FAFSA/CSS process and that will indicate what you will need. I want to do everything I can to support you in every way possible in life and the next big thing is college. From all indications, I will be able to meet the needs you have and am even willing to take on more work to make sure you have no loans.”

“I am excited and happy for you because I think you will get into your top choice and we can make your dream a reality. So to be clear: I will contribute substantially, and possibly pay fully for your college, even if I am the only one paying.”

“But there are also a lot of things you and I need to work through, and I want us to try. I am asking you to put some effort into this because we have a lot of years ahead of us and I want them to be happy. We have a lot of years, but not unlimited years. I want all of us, mom included, to be able to share in your happiness and be there when you need help and support.”

“I will put in effort as well; with open ears and an open heart. I will take responsibility for my part in everything, but I am not solely responsible for where we are today.”

“You are incredibly smart and talented, no one can deny that. But your emotional control and kindness need some work. You have shown incredible disrespect and rudeness to me and the family and that needs to stop. I will not tolerate it for one more second. I, and our family, have been there for you, supported you, and given you pretty much everything you have ever asked for. Tell me one meaningful or substantial thing I have ever said no to. You can’t, because you won’t find one.”

“So in the short term I am demanding that the rudeness, disrespect, and excluding me from your life stops. In the long term, I am asking you to please consider putting in some effort in working through our issues, because if left unchecked, they will fester and we may cross a line we can’t get back from. Sweeping things under the rug is no way to address problems and not something I want you to learn.”

“So think about this; after your applications are in and things aren’t so stressful, maybe we should commit to 8 sessions with the counselor you went to. That way it will be someone you are comfortable with and kind of be on ‘your territory’. I am not tied to an outcome; if the result is that we conclude I am the problem and I am a complete dick, then I am open to that and am willing to learn from it. I want to commit to the EFFORT, not a result. This is not a trial.”

“I love you more than anything and only want you to be happy in life. Now let’s get some dinner.”

==============

My bottom line is this:

I want to support my D in life as much as possible. But I believe that you can love someone unconditionally while expecting certain things (conditions?) when it comes to financial support of a young adult.

I would rather have my child turn out to be a kind, respectful, and loving person living a small life in suburban MD or VA than a narcissistic zillionaire lobbyist/lawyer on the hill.

The most valuable thing a parent can teach is respect and tolerating disrespect, rudeness, and entitlement teaches the opposite.

Lastly: I was reminded of the scene from "Good Will Hunting" on the park bench when Robin Williams tells Will that he was pretty hurt by what he said and how he ripped his life apart, but then something occurred to him and he let it all go; that despite the the fact he's a genius, Will is just a cocky and scared kid and he doesn't have the first idea of what he's talking about. That while he may be intellectually brilliant, he doesn't have any life experience with people to understand the impact of his actions and how they might hurt someone more than he can comprehend. That's kind of how I feel.

Anyways…. this got much longer than I intended but was basically stream of thought.

This forum can really be a valuable resource for all of us parents who feel at times overwhelmed with everything from first diaper changes, to young adult-child challenges.

I TRULY appreciate everyone's input. Thank you all VERY much for your time.

Hi OP - I haven’t read the whole thread, and I hate to be so harsh but frankly your daughter just sounds like a spoiled brat. Even high achievers can be entitled jerks, even more so because they think they are so smart. It’s sounds like neither you nor ex-wife enforce any type of consequences for her obnoxious behavior and by now it’s far too late.

The people blaming this on your divorce are just wrong. When my parents divorced my father was way more of a jerk than you and I never acted this way to him. You can have a relationship with her while not tolerating rude behaviors.

[Anonymous]

I'm the OP...

Anonymous wrote:Did you have an affair?

No, I did not. Neither of us did.

[Anonymous]

I'm the OP...

Anonymous wrote:He obviously did.

No, there were no affairs.

Wow, this thread sure went a different way than I expected!

[Anonymous]

I'm the OP. Please see my responses below...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I, and our family, have been there for you, supported you, and given you pretty much everything you have ever asked for. Tell me one meaningful or substantial thing I have ever said no to. You can’t, because you won’t find one.”

OP, read what I have bolded.

You need to see that THIS is the problem in your relationship more than anything caused by the divorce. You have NEVER said no to her? She treats you like complete shit but you say yes to every demand she has, never provide a consequence for her abhorrent behavior, never deny her an opportunity despite her ACTIVELY HURTING PEOPLE AROUND HER?

There have been PLENTY of times I have said no. There have also been plenty of times there were consequences or a punishment for bad behavior. Sometimes these were pretty serious consequences as well.

What I was referring to above were things like special academic programs and opportunities, school trips, travel for her team, etc. These were things that, while expensive, her mother and I felt were important and enriching experiences.

Anonymous wrote:Why on earth do you think she would ever go to therapy with you when you are already rehearsing a conversation where you promise to pay for her entire college, go above and beyond...? You have now completely backtracked from your original OP...becuase people are guilting you for an affair you had?

Again, there was no affair on either side. I'm really surprised people keep assuming this.

If you read my OP carefully, while I expressed frustration, I never said I was REFUSING to pay for college. I simply was asking for input on how to handle a disrespectful and at times incredibly rude teenager. To repeat: this isn't about money, it's about learning to show respect for those who love and support you.

And I am not "reversing my position". Instead, consider that it may not have been as extreme as you originally assumed, and that I took many of the comments here to heart and have been able to take a more compassionate position.

Anonymous wrote:The fact that you hurt your family in whatever way you contributed to your divorce (even if it's only 50%, or if it's 90%) does not mean you let your teenage kid treat people as badly as you have allowed. And while you have allowed her to behave like a monster in the past, that doesn't absolve you from holding her responsible now.

I agree. There are a lot of contributing factors here. And while I have desperately tried to work with her mother to effectively co-parent her, it hasn't always been received. The only times it HAS been received is when her mother is on the receiving end of the anger. THEN mom calls complaining and playing the victim. I have suggested more than once that my ex and I sit down TOGETHER, on the same side of the table, and present a united from of love and firm boundaries. I think my ex may be coming around but you should know that I am the one who is constantly extending the olive branch.

Anonymous wrote:I vehemently disagree with those who say you owe her to pay her college education now. What you owe to her, more than anything, is providing some limits to her unacceptable behavior. She can not be allowed to careen through life hurting people without some consequences. You can and should own up to what you did to blow up your family. But continuing to just give give give give give to her is simply continuing to reward her horrible behavior. That is not LOVE.

Thanks again for your input.

[Anonymous]

I am the OP. Please see my responses below...

Anonymous wrote:From your post you clearly had an affair.

I did not have an affair. Neither did my ex. It's dumbfounding to me that people are making this assumption.

Anonymous wrote:
This child is hurting. She is hurting a lot and what you and mom are doing isn't working. You and mom, since you say you have been an active parent, have not been meeting her needs. If you had an affair, you don't realize the trauma and hurt from it. Granted, you cheated on her mom, but the fallout is you destroyed your marriage which impacted every family member. And, if you cheated, which your post makes us suspicious of, you need to own 100% of that as there is no excuse for cheating and the other person, no matter what they do to piss you off is never the person to be blamed in less they cheated to. If they cheated, you getting revenge makes you an even worse person.

See above re: affair. I have made apologies to my daughter for the fact that the marriage failed and my part in it, and I very well may need to reiterate this as time goes on. As she matures, it will be easier to actually have rational conversations about our family.

Anonymous wrote:If you were both still married, how would you handle it. I would give her either a set amount, and that amount will continue each semester based off good grades and behavior. She can work summers or an internship (paid or unpaid) during the summer for spending money for books and you can reasonably supplement. If poor behavior continues, she can take loans and you can help pay them back. Make it clear she needs to involve you in the process, that you will NOT write a blank check and when the time comes both you and mom will first discuss finances and then all three of you will discuss finances.

Yes, this is pretty much how we would handle it. And this is how I plan to handle it as well. This is good advice and I really appreciate it. Thank you! The only part of your advice that it challenging is that she must involve me in the process. I learned long ago that you can't control people or force them to do something they don't want to do without pushing them farther away. But I think my second post with the thoughts on what I will say to her is getting closer to what may help.

Anonymous wrote:No one is owed college but as a parent, its a good idea for your child's future. However, poor behavior is a factor in paying.

Thank you for your thoughts and ideas!

[Anonymous]

I am the OP. Please see my responses below...

Anonymous wrote:I like most of your intended discussion with your DD. I would put it in writing, and probably online. This is because it is so much to digest; it needs to be reviewed; re-read...and probably bounced off her peers who will cool her off.

Wow, you make a great point and this is a good idea. Thank you!

Anonymous wrote:My DH needed to have a hard conversation with my SIL, years ago. He put it in an email. I didn't like that there would be a record, frozen in time. But he planned for that. He did this because he said, if he spoke with her, her memory of the conversation would be all twisted, and only parts of it would be retained. But in an email, she can read it 100 times, and every single time, it would say the same thing, nothing more, nothing less.

This is really good advice and I really appreciate it. I think I may have an abbreviated conversation with her and then hand her a letter, telling her that I'm giving it to her because it's really important to me to communicate this clearly to her and I didn't want anything to be lost or misunderstood in conversation.

I will write it in the most loving way possible while still being clear that this isn't about parental authority, it's about the fact that when you hurt someone through disrespect and unkindness, you can't expect their support when you're in need.

I think I'd do this on paper because knowing what I do about teenagers and technology, it may get forwarded to who knows how many people. I remember my dad once said "Don't write anything down that you wouldn't want the whole world to read."

I have a feeling she'd also run and show it to her mom/my ex, but I guess that's ok because I'm just being open, honest, and saying what's my heart. D17 would probably also treat it like a binding contract knowing her and throw it in my face when she felt the need! LOL. But if I make the commitment to pay for school in my heart and mind, then I guess who cares.

Anonymous wrote:Now with respect to paying for her college, just pay it OP. You are choosing to put your foot down at the wrong time and it's too strong a punishment. Just get her fledged and on the road to living independently. If she's still horrible, after the teen hormones etc die down, then you can then withold financially and there will be no boomerang-to-your-basement effect.

You are right and I came to this conclusion after speaking with some friends, as well as reading some of the more rational and non-attacking posts in this thread. But I know for a fact, there will be no "boomerang-to-my-basement effect"... this kid is the definition of ambition and independence.

Anonymous wrote:And remember, teens push hard against their parents to make sure they are there for them, and she is pushing really hard, probably because she feels (rightly or wrongly) that you've abandoned her in the past. She is probably highly verbal, and the highly verbal girls are the worst. Because any skill or ability a teen has can be weaponized; in this case, she's weaponized her mouth. It can be rough. But she may not even know it--that she is testing you, daring you to abandon her again. Don't abandon her. Be her rock.

You are 100% right. Thanks for pointing this out because it was good to hear again.

I have long said that no matter what she said or did to me, even when she refused to speak to me for months at a time: I would never turn my back on her, the door to our home and my heart would always be open, and no matter how hard the waves of anger crashed against me, I would be a rock and never stop loving her.

[Anonymous]

I am the OP. Please see my responses below...

Anonymous wrote:OP, it’s great that you are really thinking about this and open to ideas. I am confused reading what you proposed to say to your DD as to whether the college money is conditioned on improved behavior or not. And if I can’t tell what you mean it’s not likely she will be clear on it either. What does “I will not stand for this vicious behavior” actually mean? I like the condition of therapy, with her therapist if she wants, and the focus on process and trying to heal the relationship rather than results.

My thought was that I would promise to meet the EFC so that if accepted, she would be able to go to her top choice. I will make this more clear in the conversation and the letter I give her.

I wasn't going to make the 8 therapy sessions a "condition", but instead an "ask" which puts some responsibility on her to come to the table and be part of the CHOICE to heal whatever issues we have. Thoughts?

Anonymous wrote:
But beyond going to therapy, what consequence do you envision for continued mean behavior? Aunt won’t want to be around her? You won’t want to be around her?

The consequences would be there are no more "extras". Example - she treats me like a POS and shows disrespect or rudeness, then when asked for anything such as rides anywhere besides school, money for any non-school item, weekend night-out privileges, sleepovers, etc. The answer is no. I have already stopped the process of getting her drivers license due to the most recent episodes.

Extreme disrespect would result in a grounding and possibly shutting down of cellphone (which is tough because they are legitimately required for some of her academic extra circulars).

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately, because of the divorce, any withdrawing on your end risks “confirming” the “he doesn’t really love me/want me/care about me” feelings from the divorce.

I would never "withdraw" emotionally. I would just be a guy in the house who doesn't go out of his way to make her life easier and require more involvement in household chores.

Anonymous wrote:
That may be completely unfair, and between 25 and 40 she may figure out how many things you did to try to make the whole thing as easy as possible for her, but teen hormones and lack of long-term vision is ABSOLUTELY at play here. I love your reference to Good Will Hunting. That is really a perfect comparison to what you’re going through. And like Will she is, ultimately, a scared kid who doesn’t really know what the f she’s talking about. It’s good if you can maintain that perspective.

I'm trying. I keep watching that scene and it really helps.

Anonymous wrote:She may also be scared about going to college. Scared of failing to measure up at her “dream” school, scared of moving away from home, etc. A part of her might be trying to sabotage the college dream with the excuse of “can’t pay for it” rather than worry about whether she can really hack it. Again, like the divorce issues, these are possible unconscious motivations that may or may not actually be why this particular kid is acting out in this particular way.

I agree. She is often pretty buttoned up and this is a topic of discussion between her mother and I. I have really tried to create a space where she can talk to me, but I know most teenage girls don't want to share anything intimate with their dads, so I'm just quietly hanging in the kitchen whenever she needs me

Anonymous wrote:
It’s also possible she was raped or suffered some other significant trauma she’s hiding from the family. Not necessarily likely, but there’s something she’s hiding/afraid to say that hurts. And it’s interfering with your relationship with her. And maybe it’s concrete like a rape or maybe she won’t even understand it until she’s 30 because it’s mixed up feelings left over from the divorce that she just doesn’t have the capacity to fully understand right now.

Good luck. I like to believe some day she will appreciate your perspective much better than she does right now and see what you tried to do for her.

Thank you so much! This was really helpful.

[Anonymous]

I am the OP...

Anonymous wrote:Hi OP - I haven’t read the whole thread, and I hate to be so harsh but frankly your daughter just sounds like a spoiled brat. Even high achievers can be entitled jerks, even more so because they think they are so smart. It’s sounds like neither you nor ex-wife enforce any type of consequences for her obnoxious behavior and by now it’s far too late.

The people blaming this on your divorce are just wrong. When my parents divorced my father was way more of a jerk than you and I never acted this way to him. You can have a relationship with her while not tolerating rude behaviors.

You make good points and thanks so much for your reply. She has had plenty of consequences as I outlined in a response above. She's only spoiled in the sense that during the divorce, she "got away" with more than she might have, and that imnsho, my ex involved and empowered her in the process in such a way that she felt she had rights and authority she absolutely didn't. Long story, but something I will have to navigate for a long time I believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need deep and serious therapy. You sound like a emotionally abusive control freak.

If you want any relationship with your daughter you need to do weekly therapy with an individual therapist for a year or two, fix yourself.

Once you are no longer an abusive person you can figure out how to repair your relationship with your daughter.

LOL. Troll.

[Anonymous]

OP- you are fine. You are doing the best you can.
She is 17, almost 18, almost an adult.

Sit her down and say,
"Honey, I love you and am proud of you. You have accomplished a lot and I'm sure will get into a great college.
College is expensive. Mom and I will help pay for half of it. You will be an adult soon. You have responsibility to pay for the other half, which will require taking out loans and getting a part-time job, probably starting now to start saving up. It will be a big responsibility, but it's part of becoming an adult and I know you can handle it."

Once she starts taking on some adult responsibilities, the gratitude will follow as she begins to understand all you've given her.

[Anonymous]

Beyond the need to improve family relationships, your daughter needs to work on her emotional control and kindness for her own sake. How will she have healthy relationships as an adult without vast improvement in how she treats the people who are closest to her? Hopefully your daughter can ask herself this question, understand its importance, and recognize a need for improvement.

OP, how was your daughter's temperament as a young child? I wonder to what degree her behaviors are part of her inborn temperament. Understanding the various root causes will affect how you address these issues.

It is important to understand that the changes that you are seeking are fundamental and will take time to manifest. This model of the stages of change (precontemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance, and termination) touch on how complicated the process of change is.

http://sphweb.bumc.bu.edu/otlt/MPH-Modules/SB/BehavioralChangeTheories/BehavioralChangeTheories6.html


Sending you positive energy and best wishes, OP. You clearly have put an immense amount of consideration into your relationship with your daughter, and she is fortunate for that.

[Anonymous]

At seventeen, I would pay for college as planned because she's your daughter. Focus on launching her out of the house. She's almost an adult who is currently an unpleasant person- the hands on parenting to teach respect and kindness is over and the chips will fall where they may.

She may learn lessons after a boyfriend dumps her or friends desert her. She may get to college and be humbled by a strict professor. She may really need someone and have to rely on the relationships she's built vs. family obligation. She may grow up, and there's plenty of time, but at this stage the lessons aren't going to come from you.

[Anonymous]

I am the Op...

Anonymous wrote:OP- you are fine. You are doing the best you can.
She is 17, almost 18, almost an adult.

Sit her down and say,
"Honey, I love you and am proud of you. You have accomplished a lot and I'm sure will get into a great college.
College is expensive. Mom and I will help pay for half of it. You will be an adult soon. You have responsibility to pay for the other half, which will require taking out loans and getting a part-time job, probably starting now to start saving up. It will be a big responsibility, but it's part of becoming an adult and I know you can handle it."

Once she starts taking on some adult responsibilities, the gratitude will follow as she begins to understand all you've given her.

Thanks for this, it makes sense. Although, I don't think the "mom and I" part will be possible or is a good idea. It has become clear to me that, while we are civil and generally get along, my ex cannot be trusted when it comes to money. Her attitude is: "My contribution too college is how little I make and that have no money, so that will generate the highest possible aid package". Meh...

I have a feeling I can meet the EFC for the top Ivy in the nation. It will be difficult, but I'm willing to do it for a kid who treats me decently. Again, I would have the same position if I had Bill Gates' money. I found an interesting post on another forum and will include it below. I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts. Thanks again!