Daughter's Behavior Toward Parent/Family and Attitude vs Gratitude
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}
Anonymous
| I just read op post again. He is not talking about paying really. He is just talking about paying what FA does not cover and he is still complaining. Wow now I really see why this kid hates him. He is angling to get out if anything. He sounds like a real peach. |
Anonymous
|
You need deep and serious therapy. You sound like a emotionally abusive control freak.
If you want any relationship with your daughter you need to do weekly therapy with an individual therapist for a year or two, fix yourself. Once you are no longer an abusive person you can figure out how to repair your relationship with your daughter. |
Anonymous
It sounds like OP doesn't even have any custody. Why not talk to her when they are together. Why not have her on his birthday. It sounds like OP cut and run when the divorced happened and never wanted any custody. |
Anonymous
|
OP, don't kid yourself that you love your dd unconditionally. You don't have to be the Bank of Dad (or Stepmom), but you are absolutely tying your financial support of your dd to the fact that you don't like her behavior and you want to punish her for it.
FYI, it's entirely possible for kids to divorce their parents. I've been estranged by my "loves me unconditionally but is an emotionally abusive alcoholic and narcissist" father for 22 years. He was not invited to my wedding and has never -- and will never -- meet his grandchildren. Same holds true for my siblings and their kids. If he weren't on his third wife (my mom was the first), he'd likely die friendless and alone. Your dd's situation and mine are different, obviously, but it may not be too late for you to fix your relationship with your dd. And not by threatening her by withdrawing financial support, but by taking a good, hard look at yourself and the parenting -- or lack thereof -- that has gotten you to the place you are with her. You can't fix everything by yourself, but I see nothing in your original post about how you've even tried. You're up on your moral high horse right now, but you'd better get off and decide whether you want to have a relationship with your daughter and if so what you're going to do to accomplish that. |
Anonymous
| Hello OP, I'm sorry you are dealing with this. It made me sad to read you post. I don't really have much advice since my children are 13 and 12. I do wish you would have tried to tackle your DD's behaviour at when she was younger. My DD started last year to answer us in a derogatory, annoyed, spiteful tone. My husband and I have sat her down a few times and spoken with her about how hurtful it is to be spoken that way. She is slowly understanding, we point it out as soon as she does it, in a patient, kind way. Sometimes she she screams, "no I didn't", others she adjusts her tone. Sometimes we get an apology. I am terrified that the way she speaks to us will get out of control so we are trying to deal with it early on. I don't know if it will work, I can only hope. I also hope that your and your daughter mend your relationship. |
Anonymous
|
OP, I’m sorry that you have raised your child nearly to adulthood only to be hurt by her behaviors. I can see why it’s a huge issue for you. The incidents you describe are unacceptable. When I read your post, I interpreted it as a father at wit’s end desperately trying to find ways to horrid tantrums stop. I agree with others that leaping right to cutting off tuition money is probably not appropriate. I do, however, think that you are on the right track in thinking about setting limits and consequences.
Put your daughter on an allowance. Now. Work with your ex wife on this, particularly if you’re still paying child support. Don’t give any more handouts. She gets a flat amount per month for clothes, gifts, etc. If she wants more, offer help finding a job. (And do be earnest about helping her write cover letters and check ads.) When tantrums happen in real time, such as the incident with your daughter and her aunt, the adults need to walk away. If you are at a restaurant, get the check and go. Dinner’s over, and your daughter can understand that she ruined it. If you are at home, leave the room silently. Leave the house and take a walk if she comes ranting after you. Don’t let her have the satisfaction of her drama. It’s fine not to go to fancy dinners or elaborate vacations with your daughter if they’re not fun any longer. Tell her you’re taking a break because it hasn’t been going well recently. Meanwhile the adults in the family should continue to enjoy themselves. Warn her in advance that next summer she should plan to have a job. Make your daughter responsible for her interactions with other relatives. She can return their calls and thank them for gifts. If she fails to show gratitude, let them know that you understand if they no longer want to send gifts. Start talking about limits for college. If you’ll help pay for four years but not a fifth year, say so. Will you cover a cell phone bill? Cable? Dining out? Do you expect you daughter to have a job while at college? How often will you pay for travel home, and is that conditional on distance and cost? Spell it all out and stick to your plan. Make sure your ex knows of your plan. In the mean time, see if you can find ways to build a meaningful relationship with this girl. She seems hurt and angry. Is there just one thing you can do together that’s pleasant? |
Anonymous
|
I am the OP of this thread.
I truly want to thank everyone for your input. I read every single response and definitely got something valuable from each. I REALLY appreciate your time and input and I have learned a lot that I think will go a long way in helping my situation. When I checked back in yesterday, there were over 50 responses and I read through all of them. I considered responding right away but I had a busy Sunday and went about my day while I digested and thought about everything. I woke up this morning and, after reading again, chose to respond because I see a lot of other parents who also deal with a shocking level of disrespect and/or entitlement (from our otherwise wonderful kids, who we all love more than anything), and I think the dialogue is valuable. First of all, though others have speculated that I have replied above as “OP-pretending-to-be-NP”, or am another poster on the board outed as a “single-not single” guy in another thread, neither is the case. This is my first response since the original post. Also - I’m the DAD here (some people thought I was female). As I was writing the original post, I kind of expected a wide range of responses that skewed toward “You’re the problem and you are being completely unreasonable…” and “You’re a horrible person and I see why your kid hates you”. That’s fine, I am totally open to that and why I chose to post and ask for input. I wanted to check myself and learn how others (outside of my real-life circle) deal with this. After reading through the whole thread again this morning, I want to clarify a few things because the responses indicate I either didn’t communicate clearly, or people are making incorrect assumptions: This isn’t about money. This is about kindness and respect. If I had 10 Billion dollars in the bank my issues and feelings would be exactly the same (I am not wealthy and live below middle class). I believe it’s our duty as parents to teach kindness, respect, family connection, and empathy. Supporting disrespect teaches the opposite. Her behavior has been at times atrocious and almost unforgivable. Not always, but many times (see original post). I can’t even print the types of things she has said here. Trust me, this is not someone spun up emotionally and out of control on teenage hormones. These are things that sting two years later and were said to parents, grandparents, and extended relatives (several of whom now want little to do with her). And just when I may get to a place of forgetting and forgiveness, another bomb drops and everything comes back. I have always planned to pay for my daughter’s education. In fact I’ve been looking forward to it since becoming a parent. I am currently pursuing a much better paying career position to be able to pay and even willing to dip substantially into my retirement savings. This commitment applies even if my ex refuses to pay anything. I have done extensive personal work through therapy and support groups. This has been invaluable. I also begged to get my ex to do some sessions so we could be better co-parents, but she refused. I want to do some sessions with D17 (and have said this) which I hope happens before she leaves for school. My position applies to attitude toward her mother as well. I have taken the position that D17 is not allowed to talk to mom this way either. If I see or hear of her talking to or treating mom this way, I will impose consequences and punishment on my own, regardless of what her mom does. If this results in 2 punishments for one crime, so be it. When it comes to expenses for great opportunities I have always said yes. I have never denied her anything important (like school/summer trips and programs at Harvard, NYU, & Tufts), despite her disrespect or even refusal to talk to me. I have always paid the vast majority share and never said no, even though our decree states all expenses are EQUALLY shared. The divorce happened during her early teen years and I COMPLETELY understand this is a huge component here. I’ve done my best to be gentle and love her through it. I have NEVER turned my back on her and my door and heart have always been wide open. But it’s new territory to me because my parents were married to the end and there is barely any divorce in my family tree. I absolutely own my share of the responsibility for the marriage failing. I am not proud of this and the divorce is probably my single regret in life. But it takes two to make a marriage fail and while I will own 50% of the blame, I will not own 51%. Regardless what she says or thinks, my ex owns the other 50%. I have never EVER said one negative thing about her mom (my ex) in front of her. And I never ever will. However, my ex did the opposite; she involved and empowered her in the divorce by almost treating her like a friend instead of a parent. I fear I will spend the rest of my life dealing with this. I begged for divorce mediation but my ex insisted on lawyers and litigation. I was self represented (because I was terrified of the legal fees) while my ex got a large powerful firm to represent her. My ex wanted almost full custody of D and the ONE thing I said was non-negotiable was 50/50 - but she spent 100k of our money in legal fees fighting this. I stood my ground and guess what? We have 50/50 custody. Anyways… I felt these things were worth clarifying. ============== After thinking things through, this is probably how I’m going to proceed:(and I'm open to your thoughts) If I can get her to have a conversation where she will actually hear me, I’m going to say: “I love you more than anything and that will never change. I think you may have the wrong impression that I’m not going to contribute to your college, which is the farthest thing from the truth. I very much want to and have planned to all along.” “As you are applying to your schools, I am also going through the FAFSA/CSS process and that will indicate what you will need. I want to do everything I can to support you in every way possible in life and the next big thing is college. From all indications, I will be able to meet the needs you have and am even willing to take on more work to make sure you have no loans.” “I am excited and happy for you because I think you will get into your top choice and we can make your dream a reality. So to be clear: I will contribute substantially, and possibly pay fully for your college, even if I am the only one paying.” “But there are also a lot of things you and I need to work through, and I want us to try. I am asking you to put some effort into this because we have a lot of years ahead of us and I want them to be happy. We have a lot of years, but not unlimited years. I want all of us, mom included, to be able to share in your happiness and be there when you need help and support.” “I will put in effort as well; with open ears and an open heart. I will take responsibility for my part in everything, but I am not solely responsible for where we are today.” “You are incredibly smart and talented, no one can deny that. But your emotional control and kindness need some work. You have shown incredible disrespect and rudeness to me and the family and that needs to stop. I will not tolerate it for one more second. I, and our family, have been there for you, supported you, and given you pretty much everything you have ever asked for. Tell me one meaningful or substantial thing I have ever said no to. You can’t, because you won’t find one.” “So in the short term I am demanding that the rudeness, disrespect, and excluding me from your life stops. In the long term, I am asking you to please consider putting in some effort in working through our issues, because if left unchecked, they will fester and we may cross a line we can’t get back from. Sweeping things under the rug is no way to address problems and not something I want you to learn.” “So think about this; after your applications are in and things aren’t so stressful, maybe we should commit to 8 sessions with the counselor you went to. That way it will be someone you are comfortable with and kind of be on ‘your territory’. I am not tied to an outcome; if the result is that we conclude I am the problem and I am a complete dick, then I am open to that and am willing to learn from it. I want to commit to the EFFORT, not a result. This is not a trial.” “I love you more than anything and only want you to be happy in life. Now let’s get some dinner.” ============== My bottom line is this: I want to support my D in life as much as possible. But I believe that you can love someone unconditionally while expecting certain things (conditions?) when it comes to financial support of a young adult. I would rather have my child turn out to be a kind, respectful, and loving person living a small life in suburban MD or VA than a narcissistic zillionaire lobbyist/lawyer on the hill. The most valuable thing a parent can teach is respect and tolerating disrespect, rudeness, and entitlement teaches the opposite. Lastly: I was reminded of the scene from "Good Will Hunting" on the park bench when Robin Williams tells Will that he was pretty hurt by what he said and how he ripped his life apart, but then something occurred to him and he let it all go; that despite the the fact he's a genius, Will is just a cocky and scared kid and he doesn't have the first idea of what he's talking about. That while he may be intellectually brilliant, he doesn't have any life experience with people to understand the impact of his actions and how they might hurt someone more than he can comprehend. That's kind of how I feel. Anyways…. this got much longer than I intended but was basically stream of thought. This forum can really be a valuable resource for all of us parents who feel at times overwhelmed with everything from first diaper changes, to young adult-child challenges. I TRULY appreciate everyone's input. Thank you all VERY much for your time. |
Anonymous
|
Meh. You can be both scarred from a shitty parent AND an asshole using it as an excuse. It's not 1 or the other.
Everyone sounds like they could use some sessions with a communication counselor. Too much is getting lost in translation it seems to me |
Anonymous
|
OP, I like the way you’re thinking about this problem. I also like that you are open to family therapy and to including your daughter as a co-equal part of the conversation.
My gentle suggestion would be that any conversation about limits/boundaries be specific and near term. I would not recommend vague statements about behavior that may be tied to some significant financial impact and an indeterminate point in the future. She will probably doubt your sincerity about following through and may not have the self control to tie present actions to distant future consequences. Start you conversation about the here and now and what you expect around gratitude and current consequences. For you I recommend individual work around setting boundaries. You might read Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend or try individual therapy around this subject. |
Anonymous
| Did you have an affair? |
Anonymous
| He obviously did. |
Anonymous
Mom here. Could you specify in what way it is abusive to expect your young adult child to send thank you notes? To speak respectfully? To call grandparents occasionally? To be collaborative regarding decisions that will cost tens of thousands of dollars? The only way the OP's posts strike me as remotely abusive is that they suggest that OP and his ex were extremely neglectful of their responsibilities to have consequences for their daughter's unacceptable behavior in the past. NEVER wrote thank you notes? Then she shouldn't have gotten any presents after the age of 5 or 6. How did they let it go this long until age 17? But the expectations aren't out of line at all. |
Anonymous
OP, read what I have bolded. You need to see that THIS is the problem in your relationship more than anything caused by the divorce. You have NEVER said no to her? She treats you like complete shit but you say yes to every demand she has, never provide a consequence for her abhorrent behavior, never deny her an opportunity despite her ACTIVELY HURTING PEOPLE AROUND HER? Why on earth do you think she would ever go to therapy with you when you are already rehearsing a conversation where you promise to pay for her entire college, go above and beyond...? You have now completely backtracked from your original OP...becuase people are guilting you for an affair you had? The fact that you hurt your family in whatever way you contributed to your divorce (even if it's only 50%, or if it's 90%) does not mean you let your teenage kid treat people as badly as you have allowed. And while you have allowed her to behave like a monster in the past, that doesn't absolve you from holding her responsible now. I vehemently disagree with those who say you owe her to pay her college education now. What you owe to her, more than anything, is providing some limits to her unacceptable behavior. She can not be allowed to careen through life hurting people without some consequences. You can and should own up to what you did to blow up your family. But continuing to just give give give give give to her is simply continuing to reward her horrible behavior. That is not LOVE. |
Anonymous
|
From your post you clearly had an affair. This child is hurting. She is hurting a lot and what you and mom are doing isn't working. You and mom, since you say you have been an active parent, have not been meeting her needs. If you had an affair, you don't realize the trauma and hurt from it. Granted, you cheated on her mom, but the fallout is you destroyed your marriage which impacted every family member. And, if you cheated, which your post makes us suspicious of, you need to own 100% of that as there is no excuse for cheating and the other person, no matter what they do to piss you off is never the person to be blamed in less they cheated to. If they cheated, you getting revenge makes you an even worse person.
If you were both still married, how would you handle it. I would give her either a set amount, and that amount will continue each semester based off good grades and behavior. She can work summers or an internship (paid or unpaid) during the summer for spending money for books and you can reasonably supplement. If poor behavior continues, she can take loans and you can help pay them back. Make it clear she needs to involve you in the process, that you will NOT write a blank check and when the time comes both you and mom will first discuss finances and then all three of you will discuss finances. No one is owed college but as a parent, its a good idea for your child's future. However, poor behavior is a factor in paying. |
Anonymous
That is still paying. |