Daughter's Behavior Toward Parent/Family and Attitude vs Gratitude

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the Op...

Anonymous wrote:OP- you are fine. You are doing the best you can.
She is 17, almost 18, almost an adult.

Sit her down and say,
"Honey, I love you and am proud of you. You have accomplished a lot and I'm sure will get into a great college.
College is expensive. Mom and I will help pay for half of it. You will be an adult soon. You have responsibility to pay for the other half, which will require taking out loans and getting a part-time job, probably starting now to start saving up. It will be a big responsibility, but it's part of becoming an adult and I know you can handle it."

Once she starts taking on some adult responsibilities, the gratitude will follow as she begins to understand all you've given her.

Thanks for this, it makes sense. Although, I don't think the "mom and I" part will be possible or is a good idea. It has become clear to me that, while we are civil and generally get along, my ex cannot be trusted when it comes to money. Her attitude is: "My contribution too college is how little I make and that have no money, so that will generate the highest possible aid package". Meh...

I have a feeling I can meet the EFC for the top Ivy in the nation. It will be difficult, but I'm willing to do it for a kid who treats me decently. Again, I would have the same position if I had Bill Gates' money. I found an interesting post on another forum and will include it below. I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts. Thanks again!

Was there an agreement in the divorce about college? My guess is that they will get a mostly full scholarship based off mom and aren't including you on the application which is why they don't want to include you in any of the college planning. They want a blank check so mom can replace child support and claim she is paying when she isn't. That's what happened with my husband's ex. Make it clear that the behavior will discontinue, that you will be involved and review all the paperwork submitted and the Dad scholarship will be available for good behavior, ongoing relationship and define it, good grades (with proof), etc. If she fails to comply, she can take loans or get a job and you can help pay back the loans if the behavior toward you changes.

Mom is probably setting child up to behave this way, especially if child support is ending.

[Anonymous]

I am the OP...[b]

Anonymous wrote:At seventeen, I would pay for college as planned because she's your daughter. Focus on launching her out of the house. She's almost an adult who is currently an unpleasant person- the hands on parenting to teach respect and kindness is over and the chips will fall where they may.

She may learn lessons after a boyfriend dumps her or friends desert her. She may get to college and be humbled by a strict professor. She may really need someone and have to rely on the relationships she's built vs. family obligation. She may grow up, and there's plenty of time, but at this stage the lessons aren't going to come from you.

You make excellent points and I appreciate your input. I am generally feeling like I will carry the cost, but I just can't get to a place where I will do it blindly with no conditions. I truly think conditions on something like this are reasonable because it says something about your self respect.

At this point I'm not really talking about the outbursts and anger, it's the ignoring and excluding me and comments (from my OP) like:

“You don’t need to know anything about my college because this is my thing, and mom and I already have it handled. You don’t need to be part of the process because it’s more work for me to tell you what’s going on. All I need from you is to tell me how much money you make, how much you have, and how much you’re willing to pay”.

The underlying attitude and meaning behind that is what troubles me most. Thanks again and I really appreciate all the responses - this is very helpful.

[Anonymous]

I am the Op...

Anonymous wrote:

Was there an agreement in the divorce about college? My guess is that they will get a mostly full scholarship based off mom and aren't including you on the application which is why they don't want to include you in any of the college planning. They want a blank check so mom can replace child support and claim she is paying when she isn't. That's what happened with my husband's ex. Make it clear that the behavior will discontinue, that you will be involved and review all the paperwork submitted and the Dad scholarship will be available for good behavior, ongoing relationship and define it, good grades (with proof), etc. If she fails to comply, she can take loans or get a job and you can help pay back the loans if the behavior toward you changes.

Mom is probably setting child up to behave this way, especially if child support is ending.

I generally agree with you and this has really been my position from my first post (all frustrations aside). But I was surprised at how many here seemed to make it solely "my fault". Oh well...

It's funny you mention the Dad Scholarship and terms. Someone sent me something like that from somewhere and I am posting it below. I'd be curios on your thoughts. Thanks again!

[Anonymous]

I am the OP...

I can't thank you all enough for your responses. This has been very helpful and I will do my best to "pay it forward" by offering what I can on other people's threads. I think when at it's best, this DCUM Forum is a valuable resource for us parents. Anyways...

A friend sent me an interesting item from somewhere about the "Parent(s) Scholarship". Basically, if you have a kid headed toward college who is not showing respect, acting entitled, or lazy and just getting by, then in order to have Mom & Dad, or Mom, or Dad pay for school, it comes with conditions. Here's what I was sent:

=========

The "Parent(s) Scholarship"

Assuming the Parents will equally share the college contribution, the following terms apply to both Parents. If the parents are divorced, then the following terms apply to the Parent paying the majority share of the education costs, and are a condition of receiving the "Parent(s) Scholarship":

(1) Kid shows Parent(s) respect and kindness;
(2) Kid stays in and initiates weekly contact with Parent(s) & responds w/ in 3 days to emails, calls, or texts;
(3) Kid maintains B average;
(4) Kid signs any docs needed so that Parent(s) can access grade reports directly from school;
(5) Kid pays for any classes where he/she screws up and has to drop;
(6) If a split family, Kid spends 50% of holiday break time at the Parent(s) place who is funding the education (understanding that some breaks may be with friends or bf/gf).
(7) If a split family, Parent paying the majority share gets the dependent tax deduction, and Kid signs paper work (driver licenses, voter registration, using that Parent’s place as official primary abode, anything else), to support Parent getting it.

Without full acceptance of the above terms, please see your student loan officer.

=========

I found it interesting and may post it in a separate thread on the College forum. Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

I think you really have two separate things to discuss with your DD and would probably try to address them at separate times. The college conversation can be completely separate from the behavior/kindness/respect conversation. Both are important, but approaching them together makes it seem like one is dependent on the other and allows a teen to tune out and/or focus on just one part of what you are saying.

As a step-parent I have some advice to help with the college conversations. You need to recognize your DDs feelings that it is overwhelming and exhausting to have the "same" conversation with both your ex and you. Figure out some ways together to limit the repeat conversations for her. My DH and his ex had a weekly 20 minute call where they caught up on where things stood in the process, this helped avoid both parents asking her for updates, other families I know had the call with all three. Also, you and your ex need to come to some agreements about how things regarding college will be handled and clearly communicate these to DD. Do not put DD in the middle, do not ask her what her mom said- clearly decide how things that need parental support will be handled. Our system was that DD asked for support with apps/essays when she wanted. Both parents attended any college conversations at the HS or met with the school counselor.

We also found we had to limit college conversations initiated by us. So try not to ask, maybe establish a regular check in with your DD see what she needs, if there are schools she wants to visit, if she needs money for applications, if she's registered for SAT. Again- only ask what you don't already know from talking to mom. Be present and available to help with out nagging (a REALLY tall order).

As far as the other pieces, I personally would try have the conversations about what she means to you, being there for her and your expectations for kindness and respect in your house first. Bring up the desire for doing counseling together but don't insist on it, just put the offer out there for when she is ready.

Then, once this is out of the way, the college conversations may be easier to have. Plus, it may give you and your ex a chance to come up with a beginning strategy for supporting DD through the process as a united team as opposed to working against each other. You two really have to be the adults here and put your differences aside.

Good luck, parenting a teen applying to colleges isn't easy for anyone and it's especially difficult with shared custody. Summary-- work on relationships first, college second...

[Anonymous]

OP, given the problems in your relationship with your kid, maybe you could try "time in" type punishments instead of taking away privileges. So that if you're saying no to a sleepover, phone time, friend time because of her behavior, you use that time to do something together - you and her. Play a sport, go to a movie, go out for ice cream, go for a hike, do something you used to do when she was little before the divorce, etc. Basically, her punishment is that she has to spend time with you and you do what you can to make it actually fun/connected time rather than unpleasant.

This is a little kid example of "time in" but maybe it could help flesh out the idea. https://www.positiveparentingconnection.net/time-out-vs-time-in-whats-the-difference/

[Anonymous]

I also think it can be helpful for your DD for you to continue to have faith that this angry/vicious/mean version of her is not some kind of core part of "who she is" but is her reacting immaturely to a lot of stress and/or pain/problems that she doesn't know how to deal with. She is a teenager. She doesn't really know who she is and may even worry that this angry/mean person is fundamentally who she is. You don't want her concluding that's just who she is. You want to take the position that you are worried about her because she is acting this way, which you KNOW is not fundamentally who she is, and so seeing this behavior has you concerned that there is something or multiple things going on in her life that are overwhelming her and that she needs help dealing with. And that you want to be there to help with those things. Whether it's college applications, worries about moving away from home, anger or frustration from the divorce, problems with her friends, or something else (drugs, sex, mental health, etc.).

Have you told her you're worried about her? That these behaviors seem extreme and that you want to help her problem-solve and handle her stresses better/differently?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP...[b]

Anonymous wrote:At seventeen, I would pay for college as planned because she's your daughter. Focus on launching her out of the house. She's almost an adult who is currently an unpleasant person- the hands on parenting to teach respect and kindness is over and the chips will fall where they may.

She may learn lessons after a boyfriend dumps her or friends desert her. She may get to college and be humbled by a strict professor. She may really need someone and have to rely on the relationships she's built vs. family obligation. She may grow up, and there's plenty of time, but at this stage the lessons aren't going to come from you.

You make excellent points and I appreciate your input. I am generally feeling like I will carry the cost, but I just can't get to a place where I will do it blindly with no conditions. I truly think conditions on something like this are reasonable because it says something about your self respect.

At this point I'm not really talking about the outbursts and anger, it's the ignoring and excluding me and comments (from my OP) like:

“You don’t need to know anything about my college because this is my thing, and mom and I already have it handled. You don’t need to be part of the process because it’s more work for me to tell you what’s going on. All I need from you is to tell me how much money you make, how much you have, and how much you’re willing to pay”.

The underlying attitude and meaning behind that is what troubles me most. Thanks again and I really appreciate all the responses - this is very helpful.

OP, pp here-- you're kind of a day late and a dollar short on this one. Either your DD does not naturally tend toward kind/respectful behavior, in which case serious consequences should have been implemented years ago, so matters never reached this point-- or she requires some outside help for emotional regulation or personal trauma that she's having, which should have been addressed years ago.

Withholding college support now only helps you to deal with your own feelings--I can't see where it's anything but harmful to your DD and it probably destroy any chance of a relationship that you can build later.

[Anonymous]

I think she already knows that your relationship is transactional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP...[b]

Anonymous wrote:At seventeen, I would pay for college as planned because she's your daughter. Focus on launching her out of the house. She's almost an adult who is currently an unpleasant person- the hands on parenting to teach respect and kindness is over and the chips will fall where they may.

She may learn lessons after a boyfriend dumps her or friends desert her. She may get to college and be humbled by a strict professor. She may really need someone and have to rely on the relationships she's built vs. family obligation. She may grow up, and there's plenty of time, but at this stage the lessons aren't going to come from you.

You make excellent points and I appreciate your input. I am generally feeling like I will carry the cost, but I just can't get to a place where I will do it blindly with no conditions. I truly think conditions on something like this are reasonable because it says something about your self respect.

At this point I'm not really talking about the outbursts and anger, it's the ignoring and excluding me and comments (from my OP) like:

“You don’t need to know anything about my college because this is my thing, and mom and I already have it handled. You don’t need to be part of the process because it’s more work for me to tell you what’s going on. All I need from you is to tell me how much money you make, how much you have, and how much you’re willing to pay”.

The underlying attitude and meaning behind that is what troubles me most. Thanks again and I really appreciate all the responses - this is very helpful.

That is probably coming from MOM and not daughter. My husband's kids did the same thing. We suspect they got full rides based off mom's income and basically just wanted him to send mom an additional check. Tell her that if she wants the money, that she will show you all the documents, you will also sign off on them if it needs a parent's signature and how much you will help with depends on the actual need. A child doesn't need to know what you make or how much you have. That sounds more like mom. There is more behind this. If child support is stopping, Mom may be looking for a way to continue to get her payments. If she needs money, you can set her up with a bank account or prepaid credit card in your name and her name.

[Anonymous]

I’ve had so many friends and lovers whose fathers blew up their families when they were kids and later demand to be loved to some standard and use financial support as leverage.

OP I’m hopeful for your daughter that she’ll get to financial independence quickly so you don’t have this over her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the Op...

Anonymous wrote:

Was there an agreement in the divorce about college? My guess is that they will get a mostly full scholarship based off mom and aren't including you on the application which is why they don't want to include you in any of the college planning. They want a blank check so mom can replace child support and claim she is paying when she isn't. That's what happened with my husband's ex. Make it clear that the behavior will discontinue, that you will be involved and review all the paperwork submitted and the Dad scholarship will be available for good behavior, ongoing relationship and define it, good grades (with proof), etc. If she fails to comply, she can take loans or get a job and you can help pay back the loans if the behavior toward you changes.

Mom is probably setting child up to behave this way, especially if child support is ending.

I generally agree with you and this has really been my position from my first post (all frustrations aside). But I was surprised at how many here seemed to make it solely "my fault". Oh well...

It's funny you mention the Dad Scholarship and terms. Someone sent me something like that from somewhere and I am posting it below. I'd be curios on your thoughts. Thanks again!

If you look on the Dad divorce forums there is lots of information on it. My husband said that to his kids as same exact situation and they refused to provide him with any information so he didn't pay (they probably got a full ride) and he had continued to pay child support so mom could have used that money to pay his portion. I suspect this is more from Mom than child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve had so many friends and lovers whose fathers blew up their families when they were kids and later demand to be loved to some standard and use financial support as leverage.

OP I’m hopeful for your daughter that she’ll get to financial independence quickly so you don’t have this over her.

Or, maybe mom had the affair and blew up the family choosing the AP. I did suspect from his post he had an affair, but I know with my husband's case Mom did and tried to hide the affair from the kids with all sorts of lies about Dad. Usually this is coming from Mom when child support is about to end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP...[b]

Anonymous wrote:At seventeen, I would pay for college as planned because she's your daughter. Focus on launching her out of the house. She's almost an adult who is currently an unpleasant person- the hands on parenting to teach respect and kindness is over and the chips will fall where they may.

She may learn lessons after a boyfriend dumps her or friends desert her. She may get to college and be humbled by a strict professor. She may really need someone and have to rely on the relationships she's built vs. family obligation. She may grow up, and there's plenty of time, but at this stage the lessons aren't going to come from you.

You make excellent points and I appreciate your input. I am generally feeling like I will carry the cost, but I just can't get to a place where I will do it blindly with no conditions. I truly think conditions on something like this are reasonable because it says something about your self respect.

At this point I'm not really talking about the outbursts and anger, it's the ignoring and excluding me and comments (from my OP) like:

“You don’t need to know anything about my college because this is my thing, and mom and I already have it handled. You don’t need to be part of the process because it’s more work for me to tell you what’s going on. All I need from you is to tell me how much money you make, how much you have, and how much you’re willing to pay”.

The underlying attitude and meaning behind that is what troubles me most. Thanks again and I really appreciate all the responses - this is very helpful.

OP, pp here-- you're kind of a day late and a dollar short on this one. Either your DD does not naturally tend toward kind/respectful behavior, in which case serious consequences should have been implemented years ago, so matters never reached this point-- or she requires some outside help for emotional regulation or personal trauma that she's having, which should have been addressed years ago.

Withholding college support now only helps you to deal with your own feelings--I can't see where it's anything but harmful to your DD and it probably destroy any chance of a relationship that you can build later.

He isn't withholding college. She can go on financial aide or loans or go to community college or work at a job where the employer helps. There are lots of options BUT he has a right to know what is going on if he's paying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the OP...[b]

Anonymous wrote:At seventeen, I would pay for college as planned because she's your daughter. Focus on launching her out of the house. She's almost an adult who is currently an unpleasant person- the hands on parenting to teach respect and kindness is over and the chips will fall where they may.

She may learn lessons after a boyfriend dumps her or friends desert her. She may get to college and be humbled by a strict professor. She may really need someone and have to rely on the relationships she's built vs. family obligation. She may grow up, and there's plenty of time, but at this stage the lessons aren't going to come from you.

You make excellent points and I appreciate your input. I am generally feeling like I will carry the cost, but I just can't get to a place where I will do it blindly with no conditions. I truly think conditions on something like this are reasonable because it says something about your self respect.

At this point I'm not really talking about the outbursts and anger, it's the ignoring and excluding me and comments (from my OP) like:

“You don’t need to know anything about my college because this is my thing, and mom and I already have it handled. You don’t need to be part of the process because it’s more work for me to tell you what’s going on. All I need from you is to tell me how much money you make, how much you have, and how much you’re willing to pay”.

The underlying attitude and meaning behind that is what troubles me most. Thanks again and I really appreciate all the responses - this is very helpful.

OP, pp here-- you're kind of a day late and a dollar short on this one. Either your DD does not naturally tend toward kind/respectful behavior, in which case serious consequences should have been implemented years ago, so matters never reached this point-- or she requires some outside help for emotional regulation or personal trauma that she's having, which should have been addressed years ago.

Withholding college support now only helps you to deal with your own feelings--I can't see where it's anything but harmful to your DD and it probably destroy any chance of a relationship that you can build later.

He isn't withholding college. She can go on financial aide or loans or go to community college or work at a job where the employer helps. There are lots of options BUT he has a right to know what is going on if he's paying.

No, the way I read it, he's putting conditions on college payment that have nothing to do with performance. Listen, I'm a strict parent (not perfect) parent when it comes to behavioral standards- the key is to start young, be consistent, and seek outside help if it's not working. He's got a DD who worked her butt off to be competitive for Ivy-- not a community college or job at Starbucks where they might help with tuition.

Her behavior is appalling, but it has never (as far as I can tell in the thread) been tied to college support until she reaches the end zone? That's not how you parent-- nope.

I have this happen with my much younger DS- he gets his screen time if he does his homework, so he drags his feet, acts terrible (he also has emotional regulation issues) and generally makes it a miserable experience for our household -- but I've learned. If I expect him to be cooperative and nice, I have to set that expectation in advance-- otherwise he gets his screen time.