Stopping caring saved my marriage

[Anonymous]

It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know that I really agree with this line of thinking. Maybe my husband is more..malleable than many men? I wouldn't have thought so but my take on this kind of thing is that bottom line, I don't take crap. I deserve to be treated a certain way and I am going to get that treatment.

When we were first married, he did that thing many men do where they go to the grocery store and came back with a bunch of junk. Unh uh, sorry, your ass is going back to the store to get the real food we need. And yes I will ridicule you because you deserve to be. Thirty years old and you can't scan the cupboards to see what we need? Fucking no. He leaves his dirty dishes by the sink for me to clean or whiskers in the sink? I'm not your fucking maid, this is unacceptable, clean them now before you go to work. You thought I was going to do all the night wakings and take care of the kid by myself while you "baby sit" some times? No fucking way, I will divorce your ass over this. You're going to tell me you'll do some house project so we don't have to waste money on hiring it out but then not do it? Yeah I will inform you how childish and irresponsible that type of behavior. I'm not going to play nice about bullshit like that. Point blank, if you want to be with me, you will treat me the way I want.

We've been married over ten years, together for 15, and I've basically turned him into the husband and father I wanted for myself and my children. Don't take crap, ladies. You're better than that.

I just found this thread and got to your post at the top of Page 8 and had to agree!

My marriage is only four years old, but this is what I did.

I should not have to tell you when the garbage is full and needs to be taken out.
You should pick up toilet paper when you notice we are low without being told.
The grocery list is on the fridge, do not call me from the store asking what we need. If you forgot the list, guess, just like you would if you were single.

Sometimes I had to lay down the law and sometimes I could raise and resolve the issue jokingly, but no way in hell was I just going to acquiesce to DH deciding he could abdicate all adult responsibilities once he had me.

Our marriage has been strong from the beginning, I suppose since we lived together and fought those battles prior to marriage, and there is no need to be apathetic or detached because we don't criticize each other. We are equal and loving partners in making our lives into what we want.

I would be inclined to cut a partner some more slack than that (and expect the same in return), but other than that, you and the other PP are my new heroes. This is what I aspire to in my next relationship. It's about knowing you have other good options (including being single), and the other person knowing that you know you have other good options and are willing to exercise them, and not daring to call your bluff.

As negotiation expert William Ury writes: "The purpose of negotiation is to explore whether you can satisfy your interests better through an agreement than you could by pursuing your Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement (BATNA). Your BATNA is your walkaway alternative. It's your best course of action for satisfying your interests without the other's agrement. ... Your power depends ... on how good your BATNA is. If you have a viable alternative, then you have power in the negotiation."

Trust me when I say I cut him a lot of slack for a long time!

I think most women do! And lo, most men will seize upon that opportunity to revert to their laziest possible manifestation. Even good men like my husband! I also come from a background of teaching where you start out with the strictest expectations and then ease up as appropriate because if you don't, the kids will walk all over you. So that probably (definitely) affected how I dealt with it...when I finally did! It's always easier to do more for him later than to revisit the fact that you've ended up with 98% of the household chores.

And that is an excellent quote from an excellent source - and you've touched on something DH and I have said since we met: one of the reasons we are so excellent together is that we were both happily single for several years before dating. If I hadn't improved his life, and vice versa, we wouldn't have stayed together. I strongly encourage people in their 20s (or early 30s if someone's just gotten out of a LT relationship) to really enjoy being single. Enjoy that your time is your own, enjoy the feeling of self-sufficiency when you build that desk yourself, try new social activities. Then you'll never end up with someone who expects superhuman things from you, because your life is better without a bad relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

Hey smarty pants, I included that so I wouldn't sound like a sanctimonious ass. We are still new to this. I could have just lied you know

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

There were a number of posts about people asking how to apply it in exactly those kinds of situations.

As someone else alluded to, there are two themes running through this thread:

-- not caring in the sense of not being dependent on your spouse to validate you or soothe you (in the words of the Passionate Marriage book, which I too would recommend to anyone interested in this thread), and not doing for them those things that they can do for themselves. This is always a good thing, whether it's applied to spouses or children or friends or anyone else. It's not actually about not caring about the spouse though; I would instead call it becoming more differentiated/mature and self reliant, and expecting the same from them. If BOTH spouses still care enough about each other and having a relationship together, and both take care of themselves when appropriate, then this can be a springboard to greater emotional connection.

-- not caring, or trying not to care, what the other person does or doesn't do, in general. Maybe just one person becomes more differentiated/mature and self reliant, and the other person doesn't. Or they both do but find that without the emotional fusion (that enmeshed, co-dependent state) there is nothing holding them together. It doesn't lead to greater emotional connection, and instead leads to emotionally checking out of the marraige. Maybe they each take care of themselves and become two ships that pass in the night, just sharing a house and children. Then they might really not care what the other's doing, as it's no hair off their back. But if they don't both take care of themselves, and one underfunctions and the other overfunctions (here's where the man-baby part comes in), then it's not surprising that the overfunctioning spouses are having trouble not caring. They DO care that they don't like what they have going, but feel stuck -- they consider the alternatives to doing all the extra work worse, because they consider the alternatives to their marriage to be worse, or are not confident enough that they'd be better off without it to end it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want specifics on how husbands have reacted. Have they said anything? Specific changes? Questions?

Mine never said anything but after about six months he wondered why I so happy. Yup I leaned to give fewer fucks. I stop needed validation from him. Now I travel, see plays, go to concerts without caring if he wants to join me or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to incorporate elements of this but am buckling a little under the weight of I guess mourning what I thought was possible, realizing there is contempt from him towards me, missing sex and missing having interest in each other and our lives. He's also having a minor emotional affair and ...I want so badly to not care anymore. I can some days.

I am working on keeping myself busy and cultivating my own interests and networks. I know I can't change any of his actions or emotions and I don't try. Did you have a mourning period before not caring?

I don't think it is not caring. It is prioritizing yourself while including/being nice to spouse. Like the PP said, I'm making XX for dinner. Oh, you don't want it? I'm sorry, make yourself ZZ. But this isn't about not caring entirely. I'll make DH's favorites, too. This is about caring for yourself, doing the things you want, inviting your spouse, and allowing them the space to partake. He/she could do this to you, too. DH: I'd like to go bowling, do you want to come? Regardless of what my answer is, he gets to do what he wants. If I want to go, great, we have a good time. If I don't, that's OK, he can STILL have a good time.

You need to lean not to give a fu#k what he thinks about your cooking. I felt this way for a long time but I learned to just not care. Don't like it, I don't care.
If you made dinner though, it's just rude to say you don't like it or don't want it. That is disrespectful. That actually would hurt my feelings quite a bit. Not that he doesn't like the food but he can't even care enough about me to pretend in order to be courteous and polite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

Hey smarty pants, I included that so I wouldn't sound like a sanctimonious ass. We are still new to this. I could have just lied you know

Yea just some men don't respond well to feeling they are being told how things are going to be - things were 50/50 for us until we had kids - have you had kids yet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

Hey smarty pants, I included that so I wouldn't sound like a sanctimonious ass. We are still new to this. I could have just lied you know

Yea just some men don't respond well to feeling they are being told how things are going to be - things were 50/50 for us until we had kids - have you had kids yet?

Yeah, that is the thing. The imbalance doesn't manifest until there are major situational changes. You move from an apt or townhouse rented into the house you bought, and now there is yard and lawn work, things break and you have to fix them, etc. And then you have kids and he just does whatever he wants to do, despite what you, the house or the kids need.

And I can either chose to get angry again about the fact that he screwed my long standing plans and left me with DD when he agreed to take her so I could do something, or I can just pay for a last minute babysitter. It is exactly as if I were a single mom.

The chain on the toilet broke in his bathroom no one else uses. That was 3 months ago and he is still sticking his hand in the water to lift the flapper. I can chose to not deal with it, not get angry he is lazy. If it bothers him, he can fix it. DD used the little potty in his bathroom (which I do check for pee when I walk in there, because she doesn't always tell us) and I noticed a few days ago it had pee in it. He could clearly see the pee every day. I chose not to do anything about it and let DH deal, she is hardly up there anyway. Then yesterday, I saw it was molding. I didn't know pee could mold. So, I dealt with it, because gross. Mentioning either of these things to him, he would just act like I was a jerk for bringing them up, that he "forgot" or he planned to do it eventually.

My DH is one of the lazy ones. I get no sorries, no excuses and no credit. I just stopped giving a fuck because of recent encounters. He made me coffee a couple of times this week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know that I really agree with this line of thinking. Maybe my husband is more..malleable than many men? I wouldn't have thought so but my take on this kind of thing is that bottom line, I don't take crap. I deserve to be treated a certain way and I am going to get that treatment.

When we were first married, he did that thing many men do where they go to the grocery store and came back with a bunch of junk. Unh uh, sorry, your ass is going back to the store to get the real food we need. And yes I will ridicule you because you deserve to be. Thirty years old and you can't scan the cupboards to see what we need? Fucking no. He leaves his dirty dishes by the sink for me to clean or whiskers in the sink? I'm not your fucking maid, this is unacceptable, clean them now before you go to work. You thought I was going to do all the night wakings and take care of the kid by myself while you "baby sit" some times? No fucking way, I will divorce your ass over this. You're going to tell me you'll do some house project so we don't have to waste money on hiring it out but then not do it? Yeah I will inform you how childish and irresponsible that type of behavior. I'm not going to play nice about bullshit like that. Point blank, if you want to be with me, you will treat me the way I want.

We've been married over ten years, together for 15, and I've basically turned him into the husband and father I wanted for myself and my children. Don't take crap, ladies. You're better than that.

I just found this thread and got to your post at the top of Page 8 and had to agree!

My marriage is only four years old, but this is what I did.

I should not have to tell you when the garbage is full and needs to be taken out.
You should pick up toilet paper when you notice we are low without being told.
The grocery list is on the fridge, do not call me from the store asking what we need. If you forgot the list, guess, just like you would if you were single.

Sometimes I had to lay down the law and sometimes I could raise and resolve the issue jokingly, but no way in hell was I just going to acquiesce to DH deciding he could abdicate all adult responsibilities once he had me.

Our marriage has been strong from the beginning, I suppose since we lived together and fought those battles prior to marriage, and there is no need to be apathetic or detached because we don't criticize each other. We are equal and loving partners in making our lives into what we want.

This is pretty harsh/critical stuff. You might think your marriage is strong but what does DH really think?
4 years though - you have it figured out.

[Anonymous]

Op here. I think my point wasn't that I completely give up any requirement that my husband actually be responsible or Kinda. In fact, I have an extremely strong views that being cordial and polite is incredibly important. But I think the bigger point about space and detachment from a Buddhist perspective really kind of what I was trying to say in it an inartful way. I have found myself in my marriage that was really really difficult and I found the stool that really made me not only enjoy my marriage but it works really better. I don't think my face is universal and I don't think everyone even needs it but I think there are a lot of people that could really benefit from what I realized. I love that we are staying ideas and experiences and I really hope that this is a real thing and you can really make it work.

[Anonymous]

Op here apologies for the typos. I am talking on my phone to post. Obviously stool meant tool, etc. apologies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

Hey smarty pants, I included that so I wouldn't sound like a sanctimonious ass. We are still new to this. I could have just lied you know

Yea just some men don't respond well to feeling they are being told how things are going to be - things were 50/50 for us until we had kids - have you had kids yet?

Yeah, that is the thing. The imbalance doesn't manifest until there are major situational changes. You move from an apt or townhouse rented into the house you bought, and now there is yard and lawn work, things break and you have to fix them, etc. And then you have kids and he just does whatever he wants to do, despite what you, the house or the kids need.

And I can either chose to get angry again about the fact that he screwed my long standing plans and left me with DD when he agreed to take her so I could do something, or I can just pay for a last minute babysitter. It is exactly as if I were a single mom.

The chain on the toilet broke in his bathroom no one else uses. That was 3 months ago and he is still sticking his hand in the water to lift the flapper. I can chose to not deal with it, not get angry he is lazy. If it bothers him, he can fix it. DD used the little potty in his bathroom (which I do check for pee when I walk in there, because she doesn't always tell us) and I noticed a few days ago it had pee in it. He could clearly see the pee every day. I chose not to do anything about it and let DH deal, she is hardly up there anyway. Then yesterday, I saw it was molding. I didn't know pee could mold. So, I dealt with it, because gross. Mentioning either of these things to him, he would just act like I was a jerk for bringing them up, that he "forgot" or he planned to do it eventually.

My DH is one of the lazy ones. I get no sorries, no excuses and no credit. I just stopped giving a fuck because of recent encounters. He made me coffee a couple of times this week.

As someone who is a single mom now, I can tell you that that was pretty accurate in my experience. When some friends asked how DS adjusted to his parents living in separate houses, I told them that it's really not that different. Except the day to day is a lot less stressful, because I know what to expect and don't have resentment and tension.

However, I will also add that some people really do have a much higher threshold for mess and putting up with things being broken or not noticing mold, etc. One person's laziness is just another person's version of prioritizing different things. That said, his response seems hostile -- but maybe the way you brought it up was also hostile. By now you may expect him to react badly and therefore bring up your frustrations harshly. It's a vicious cycle. You could try to suggest that both people express their underlying needs (e.g. "I need to feel comfortable in my own home, and cleanliness makes me comfortable," etc.) rather than casting blame or focusing just on their positions on an issue, and really listen and respect that his needs may differ from yours, but that doesn't make them "wrong." And if you or he doesn't respect the other enough to try to find a way forward that meets everyone's needs, or if you try but just can't find a good solution, then you have to decide how important it is to you, and if you want to just put up with it or move out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

There were a number of posts about people asking how to apply it in exactly those kinds of situations.

As someone else alluded to, there are two themes running through this thread:

-- not caring in the sense of not being dependent on your spouse to validate you or soothe you (in the words of the Passionate Marriage book, which I too would recommend to anyone interested in this thread), and not doing for them those things that they can do for themselves. This is always a good thing, whether it's applied to spouses or children or friends or anyone else. It's not actually about not caring about the spouse though; I would instead call it becoming more differentiated/mature and self reliant, and expecting the same from them. If BOTH spouses still care enough about each other and having a relationship together, and both take care of themselves when appropriate, then this can be a springboard to greater emotional connection.

-- not caring, or trying not to care, what the other person does or doesn't do, in general. Maybe just one person becomes more differentiated/mature and self reliant, and the other person doesn't. Or they both do but find that without the emotional fusion (that enmeshed, co-dependent state) there is nothing holding them together. It doesn't lead to greater emotional connection, and instead leads to emotionally checking out of the marraige. Maybe they each take care of themselves and become two ships that pass in the night, just sharing a house and children. Then they might really not care what the other's doing, as it's no hair off their back. But if they don't both take care of themselves, and one underfunctions and the other overfunctions (here's where the man-baby part comes in), then it's not surprising that the overfunctioning spouses are having trouble not caring. They DO care that they don't like what they have going, but feel stuck -- they consider the alternatives to doing all the extra work worse, because they consider the alternatives to their marriage to be worse, or are not confident enough that they'd be better off without it to end it.

This is a very smart post.

[Anonymous]

This reminds me of the Law of Attraction, which as I understand it, says that happy people attract good things into their lives, and unhappy people attract more unhappy things.

If you grow up and take responsibility for your own happiness, you will start enjoying your life more in general. If your spouse is also able to do the same, he'll be more attracted to you (maybe after some initial resistance), and you'll grow closer. If not, he'll just feel threatened, and try to force you to go back to being the unhappy person he is comfortable with, who doesn't challenge him to grow. And then you have some hard decisions to make. Or maybe they're not that hard at that point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's fascinating to me that the people who are responding in disagreement think this is about letting the husband off the hook and letting him act like a man-baby.

To the poster who's got it all figured out 4 years in, congrats! Talk to me in 16. . .

Hey smarty pants, I included that so I wouldn't sound like a sanctimonious ass. We are still new to this. I could have just lied you know

Yea just some men don't respond well to feeling they are being told how things are going to be - things were 50/50 for us until we had kids - have you had kids yet?

I had a neighbor who seemed to have a perfect relationship with her DH - they were always doing sweet things together, and speaking so highly of each other. She would have said things like PP, and demanded her way or the highway - her DH was very acquiescent. I used to feel really badly about my own relationship in comparison - my DH worked really long hours (until 11 p.m. or midnight was very common) and our DD was an extremely difficult baby/toddler - we were both exhausted all the time. DH is very stubborn and has to come to things as if they were his idea, or he feels controlled and resists (He has plenty of great qualities, I'm just trying to point out that he didn't easily go along with things) I was home with DD and starting a small business at the time. Then my neighbor and I were both pregnant at the same time - her with their first, me with our second. After our babies were born, it was like a switch was thrown in their marriage - suddenly they were arguing a lot, not doing sweet things, complaining about each other. It was really helpful for me to see that - I realized that a lot of our struggles were entirely situational. Until kids come along, resources are quite abundant. After that, you have to learn an entirely new navigation/negotiation of resources (time, money, energy, love, etc).

I agree with another PP who pointed out that sometimes people just have different priorities, and that doesn't necessarily make them lazy. Taking a step back can sometimes make that more clear.