Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the obtuse poster.

It costs you nothing to either 1. Listen to what many of us are trying to tell you, or 2. Just come out and say what you’re really getting at.

Either
1. “Yes, it does seem pretty obvious where the line is. Thanks for pointing out a few situations I’d never thought of before. I care about making people comfortable, especially when I’m trying to meet women.”
Or.
2. You all are bulls***. I specifically have the right to go around and lightly harass women.

Costs you nothing. It’s anonymous. Why pretend like you’re just not getting it?!?!

Believe it or not, the "lightly harassing women constantly" IS actually courtship to men with poor social skills (or just an usually aggressive approach). I actually have met men who justify catcalling on the street, being really persistant, etc, on the grounds that 1 out of 100 women will actually be responsive. the other 99 are just collateral damage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the obtuse poster.

It costs you nothing to either 1. Listen to what many of us are trying to tell you, or 2. Just come out and say what you’re really getting at.

Either
1. “Yes, it does seem pretty obvious where the line is. Thanks for pointing out a few situations I’d never thought of before. I care about making people comfortable, especially when I’m trying to meet women.”
Or.
2. You all are bulls***. I specifically have the right to go around and lightly harass women.

Costs you nothing. It’s anonymous. Why pretend like you’re just not getting it?!?!

None of the above.

3. You're full of shit. You have different standards for men and women, and quite frankly different standards depending on the context. What you really want is for people to pay attention to you when you find them attractive, and to leave you alone when you don't find them attractive. You refuse to communicate directly because you've been socialized to be afraid of anything resembling confrontation. You are too insecure to acknowledge that you are part of the problem, and so you refuse to take obvious steps to solve the problem. You'd rather whine about your plight than take easy steps to improve your situation.

You don't know me. I'm happily married and haven't hit on anyone for well over a decade now. I'm pretty careful about making people feel comfortable. If I feel like striking up a conversation with a stranger in a coffeeshop (maybe because that person is reading a book I'm also reading), I'll still do it. If s/he doesn't want to talk, I assume s/he can communicate that clearly. If I notice a co-worker has a new haircut, I'm still going to compliment him/her, because that's what friendly and considerate people do in the real world. If you really consider those type of normal social interactions to be "light harassment," then I can't help you. I suppose we'll have to disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the obtuse poster.

It costs you nothing to either 1. Listen to what many of us are trying to tell you, or 2. Just come out and say what you’re really getting at.

Either
1. “Yes, it does seem pretty obvious where the line is. Thanks for pointing out a few situations I’d never thought of before. I care about making people comfortable, especially when I’m trying to meet women.”
Or.
2. You all are bulls***. I specifically have the right to go around and lightly harass women.

Costs you nothing. It’s anonymous. Why pretend like you’re just not getting it?!?!

None of the above.

3. You're full of shit. You have different standards for men and women, and quite frankly different standards depending on the context. What you really want is for people to pay attention to you when you find them attractive, and to leave you alone when you don't find them attractive. You refuse to communicate directly because you've been socialized to be afraid of anything resembling confrontation. You are too insecure to acknowledge that you are part of the problem, and so you refuse to take obvious steps to solve the problem. You'd rather whine about your plight than take easy steps to improve your situation.

You don't know me. I'm happily married and haven't hit on anyone for well over a decade now. I'm pretty careful about making people feel comfortable. If I feel like striking up a conversation with a stranger in a coffeeshop (maybe because that person is reading a book I'm also reading), I'll still do it. If s/he doesn't want to talk, I assume s/he can communicate that clearly. If I notice a co-worker has a new haircut, I'm still going to compliment him/her, because that's what friendly and considerate people do in the real world. If you really consider those type of normal social interactions to be "light harassment," then I can't help you. I suppose we'll have to disagree.

You seem to have some kind of particular resentment against attractive women. What's that all about?

Also the WHOLE POINT is that MEN generally DO NOT get harassed or bugged the same way women do. This is an area where 95% of the perpetrators are men. But you REFUSE to see that women in fact are communicating directly (and you just don't see it because you have no social skills/feel entitled); or women have very good reasons not to communicate directly (they're worried about a hostile reaction, or their jobs); or you're just being rude and feel like you're entitled to do it.

Basically my friend, you have a new set of manners to learn. I'm sorry it bugs you so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your post strikes a chord with me because I was just thinking this morning about how lucky I am to have ended up married to my wife. I had to ask her out 3 times before we actually went out on our first date. The first time, she gave me a "sure sounds great, maybe some other time" response, and the second time she said yes but then canceled a couple days later. After the send failed attempt, I assumed she was telling me no. But both male and female friends encouraged me to try again. To this day, I joke that she was trying to give me the brush off, and she insists she had legitimate conflicts.

Do you think I was harassing my wife? Should I have waited for her to ask me out on a date? Is my whole marriage a sham of the patriarchy?

I think you have an unrealistic view of how people communicate. You seem to believe that either (1) women are always crystal clear in understanding male intentions and in the messages they are sending, or (2) men are always crystal clear in understanding female intentions and in the messages they are hearing. I think most people are very poor at understanding each other and at making themselves understood.

If you really don't want to be asked out, then why wouldn't you say "No, I'm not interested in anything romantic with you"? No absolutely means no, but "sure sounds like fun, maybe some other time" doesn't always mean no.

Dude, she said yes on the second try, by the third you were just rescheduling - so that's different than a guy repeatedly asking someone out who doesn't commit.

I think the guys who said to me on the job site yesterday were very clear: "Oh, I had a pleasure working with such pretty ladies today." Or, when I got into a part of the site that was physically small, "You really fit well in there." And, on.

I was NOT clear because I didn't say what I wanted to: "Uh, have you been buried under a rock? It's not cool to say that to women!" They were doing us a favor and I don't want to ruin work relations. I'm also just tired; I'm middle aged and these interactions go back decades. It's not my job to explain to men that I enjoyed working with them until they made that stupid, ignorant, unnecessary comment. Why couldn't they have said, "thanks for making my job easier" or "it looks great" or "I can see how much time and creativity you put into this project" -- really!

Also, in my 20s and 30s men often tried to pick me up in a coffee shop (and I'm average attractiveness) and it is tiring. So often, men don't take the hint that I wasn't interested and that's likely what the woman was complaining about.

Yes, should women be more direct? Then, we are bitches and men get angry. It's been a no-win.

[Anonymous]

Did you mistakenly reply to the wrong post. Yours doesn't make any sense.

You seem to have some kind of particular resentment against attractive women. What's that all about?

My post never mentioned attractive women at all. I certainly do not resent them, and I consider my wife quite attractive. Are you confused?

Also the WHOLE POINT is that MEN generally DO NOT get harassed or bugged the same way women do. This is an area where 95% of the perpetrators are men. But you REFUSE to see that women in fact are communicating directly (and you just don't see it because you have no social skills/feel entitled); or women have very good reasons not to communicate directly (they're worried about a hostile reaction, or their jobs); or you're just being rude and feel like you're entitled to do it.

Again, this has nothing to do with my post. I think many women - including apparently you - do not communicate clearly. You shift the blame for your poor communication over to men, by saying the men "have no social skills" to properly intuit your unspoken desires. When you refuse to communicate, you are part of the problem.

Basically my friend, you have a new set of manners to learn. I'm sorry it bugs you so much.

We have to disagree here. If you'd like to give a coherent explanation for how striking up a conversation at a coffeeshop or complimenting a co-worker's haircut is bad manners, I'm happy to read it. But until then, you have not convinced me to change my behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the obtuse poster.

It costs you nothing to either 1. Listen to what many of us are trying to tell you, or 2. Just come out and say what you’re really getting at.

Either
1. “Yes, it does seem pretty obvious where the line is. Thanks for pointing out a few situations I’d never thought of before. I care about making people comfortable, especially when I’m trying to meet women.”
Or.
2. You all are bulls***. I specifically have the right to go around and lightly harass women.

Costs you nothing. It’s anonymous. Why pretend like you’re just not getting it?!?!

None of the above.

3. You're full of shit. You have different standards for men and women, and quite frankly different standards depending on the context. What you really want is for people to pay attention to you when you find them attractive, and to leave you alone when you don't find them attractive. You refuse to communicate directly because you've been socialized to be afraid of anything resembling confrontation. You are too insecure to acknowledge that you are part of the problem, and so you refuse to take obvious steps to solve the problem. You'd rather whine about your plight than take easy steps to improve your situation.

You don't know me. I'm happily married and haven't hit on anyone for well over a decade now. I'm pretty careful about making people feel comfortable. If I feel like striking up a conversation with a stranger in a coffeeshop (maybe because that person is reading a book I'm also reading), I'll still do it. If s/he doesn't want to talk, I assume s/he can communicate that clearly. If I notice a co-worker has a new haircut, I'm still going to compliment him/her, because that's what friendly and considerate people do in the real world. If you really consider those type of normal social interactions to be "light harassment," then I can't help you. I suppose we'll have to disagree.

I'm not the person you've been arguing with.

It seems like you are having a hard time understanding the experiences that women on this thread are relating to you of how regularly they experience unwanted attention in public. If you are not comfortable with the term harassment, that's fine, but I do think that you should appreciate that when you strike up a conversation with a woman who is reading the same thing you're reading, it may be the first time today that you've done that, but for that woman, it's entirely possible that she's been fending off "friendly" approaches about the book she's reading, the shirt she's wearing, whether the empty chair at her table is taken, what strange weather we're having lately, etc. all morning. That's not your fault or your responsibility, but if you cannot understand why women sometimes seem to get easily upset by what you believe are routine interactions, consider that their experience is likely a lot different than yours.

Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation. The reality is that if you want to be respectful, it's truly better to mind your own business. By your own statement, you're happily married, so you don't need to be chatting up women in Starbucks who are reading the same book as you. You don't need to compliment your colleague on her haircut. None of those things are essential to your life or happiness. When someone tells you that this thing you are doing makes them uncomfortable, and it costs you nothing to stop doing that thing, and instead of stopping that thing, you choose to argue self righteously that you disagree that they should feel uncomfortable and will continue to do the thing that is causing discomfort, that tells me that you are not a person who cares at all about the experiences of other people. You are attached to your own experience and screw what anyone else thinks or feels.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks for the responses. It seems that the line is clear enough. And, where it's somewhat ambiguous, it sounds like erring on the side of caution isn't that burdensome.

The people who want to endlessly complain about close cases, seem to be going out of their way to do so. I don't get the sense that this is a huge problem for people who actively want to be courteous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dude, she said yes on the second try, by the third you were just rescheduling - so that's different than a guy repeatedly asking someone out who doesn't commit.

Yeah, but you're ignoring the PP I was responding to. Here's what she wrote: "The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch." If I'd followed her advice, I would have never called again after the first effort.

Anonymous wrote:I think the guys who said to me on the job site yesterday were very clear: "Oh, I had a pleasure working with such pretty ladies today." ... I was NOT clear because I didn't say what I wanted to: "Uh, have you been buried under a rock? It's not cool to say that to women!"

Surely you're smart and reasonable enough to see there's a middle ground between passively accepting that comment and telling the job site guy he's an asshole? How about "Watch out fella, the only guy who gets to call me 'pretty' is my husband!" or "Yeah, I was just planning to tell the people back at the office how pretty you guys are too!"

Anonymous wrote:Or, when I got into a part of the site that was physically small, "You really fit well in there." And, on.

I don't understand what's offensive about this. I gather you're small, and so you fit into a small part of the site.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the guys who said to me on the job site yesterday were very clear: "Oh, I had a pleasure working with such pretty ladies today." ... I was NOT clear because I didn't say what I wanted to: "Uh, have you been buried under a rock? It's not cool to say that to women!"

Surely you're smart and reasonable enough to see there's a middle ground between passively accepting that comment and telling the job site guy he's an asshole? How about "Watch out fella, the only guy who gets to call me 'pretty' is my husband!" or "Yeah, I was just planning to tell the people back at the office how pretty you guys are too!"

I'm not that PP, but I think it's worth pointing out that while she COULD do those things, why does it have to be her responsibility to correct inappropriate behavior? Why can it not be the responsibility of the males behaving inappropriately to not do that? Why should she confront this person directly rather than reporting this person to the appropriate human resources department so that they can address the inappropriate behavior?

You are not my child. It is not my job to teach you how to behave appropriately.

[Anonymous]

But you REFUSE to see that women in fact are communicating directly

Other obtuse guy here. No, not refusing to see anything. I do not do subtle though. That's me. And as the other guy mentioned, if you're too subtle for a large number of people, you are failing to communicate.

Also, if you consider yourself "collateral damage" for being spoken to politely (not catcalling), you've got issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dude, she said yes on the second try, by the third you were just rescheduling - so that's different than a guy repeatedly asking someone out who doesn't commit.

Yeah, but you're ignoring the PP I was responding to. Here's what she wrote: "The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch." If I'd followed her advice, I would have never called again after the first effort.

Anonymous wrote:I think the guys who said to me on the job site yesterday were very clear: "Oh, I had a pleasure working with such pretty ladies today." ... I was NOT clear because I didn't say what I wanted to: "Uh, have you been buried under a rock? It's not cool to say that to women!"

Surely you're smart and reasonable enough to see there's a middle ground between passively accepting that comment and telling the job site guy he's an asshole? How about "Watch out fella, the only guy who gets to call me 'pretty' is my husband!" or "Yeah, I was just planning to tell the people back at the office how pretty you guys are too!"

Anonymous wrote:Or, when I got into a part of the site that was physically small, "You really fit well in there." And, on.

I don't understand what's offensive about this. I gather you're small, and so you fit into a small part of the site.

So, I am smart enough to have to play a cat and mouse game with them!? I can't say FU, I must be coy. That is not my job and does nothing to encourage them to stop. You really are missing the point. Can you dis-engage a bit and read through this thread again?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did you mistakenly reply to the wrong post. Yours doesn't make any sense.

You seem to have some kind of particular resentment against attractive women. What's that all about?

My post never mentioned attractive women at all. I certainly do not resent them, and I consider my wife quite attractive. Are you confused?

Also the WHOLE POINT is that MEN generally DO NOT get harassed or bugged the same way women do. This is an area where 95% of the perpetrators are men. But you REFUSE to see that women in fact are communicating directly (and you just don't see it because you have no social skills/feel entitled); or women have very good reasons not to communicate directly (they're worried about a hostile reaction, or their jobs); or you're just being rude and feel like you're entitled to do it.

Again, this has nothing to do with my post. I think many women - including apparently you - do not communicate clearly. You shift the blame for your poor communication over to men, by saying the men "have no social skills" to properly intuit your unspoken desires. When you refuse to communicate, you are part of the problem.

Basically my friend, you have a new set of manners to learn. I'm sorry it bugs you so much.

We have to disagree here. If you'd like to give a coherent explanation for how striking up a conversation at a coffeeshop or complimenting a co-worker's haircut is bad manners, I'm happy to read it. But until then, you have not convinced me to change my behavior.

When you refuse to listen, you're a bigger part of the problem. Women ARE communicating. If you had the social skills and manners to grasp that, you would know. Not all communication is verbal. When a woman many years your junior gives a pained wincing smile when you tell her (every single morning) "Nice skirt, Jocelyn!" she's telling you you're bugging her. When a woman barely glances up and says hi and looks back at her book in a cafe, she's telling you she doesn't want to talk. It's BAD MANNERS to force yourself on someone in a situation where you should understand they don't want to talk to you; and it's rude for you to force someone in essence to be rude to you to terminate an interaction, when you should have figured it out yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the person you've been arguing with.

It seems like you are having a hard time understanding the experiences that women on this thread are relating to you of how regularly they experience unwanted attention in public. If you are not comfortable with the term harassment, that's fine, but I do think that you should appreciate that when you strike up a conversation with a woman who is reading the same thing you're reading, it may be the first time today that you've done that, but for that woman, it's entirely possible that she's been fending off "friendly" approaches about the book she's reading, the shirt she's wearing, whether the empty chair at her table is taken, what strange weather we're having lately, etc. all morning. That's not your fault or your responsibility, but if you cannot understand why women sometimes seem to get easily upset by what you believe are routine interactions, consider that their experience is likely a lot different than yours.

Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation. The reality is that if you want to be respectful, it's truly better to mind your own business. By your own statement, you're happily married, so you don't need to be chatting up women in Starbucks who are reading the same book as you. You don't need to compliment your colleague on her haircut. None of those things are essential to your life or happiness. When someone tells you that this thing you are doing makes them uncomfortable, and it costs you nothing to stop doing that thing, and instead of stopping that thing, you choose to argue self righteously that you disagree that they should feel uncomfortable and will continue to do the thing that is causing discomfort, that tells me that you are not a person who cares at all about the experiences of other people. You are attached to your own experience and screw what anyone else thinks or feels.

Thank you for your (mostly) thoughtful response.

I appreciate your point about how a woman sitting in a coffeeshop might've been chatted up by others, so she might not want to talk to me when I comment that I'm reading the same book. But there are only two choices: (1) I just refuse to talk to women in coffeeshops and only talk to men, for fear that I might inadvertently offend a woman who doesn't want to talk, or (2) I make my book comment, and then only continue the conversation if she wants to. If those are my two choices, I would rather choose option 2, because I'm a social person. I trust if she doesn't want to talk, she'll just say" Yes, it's good," and go back to her pages. I'm not going to be offended, and contrary to what some people on this thread seem to suggest, I'm not going to get violent.

I don't understand why you'd go to a bar to read a book, especially during happy hour. Of course someone's going to talk to you at happy hour, whether you're a man or woman. So maybe that's a bad example. But I take your point that women probably get talked to more than men.

I hear your point that no one needs to comment on a stranger's book, or compliment anyone's appearance. No communication at all is essential. But it's part of being social. I choose to live in a world where people can talk to one another.

If I had some indication that my co-workers (male or female) do not want to be complimented when they get new haircuts, I'd stop. But quite frankly, the response is usually something like "Thanks so much!" and then a few minutes of the person telling me about it. People are usually pretty excited to talk about it when they get a new and different haircut. Don't you ever compliment people you don't know well? Maybe you should try it sometime. Believe it or not, some people (both men and women) consider it flattering.

As for the people on this thread saying personal interactions (conversations in public or hairstyle compliments) make them uncomfortable, I'd certainly take that into consideration if I considered their viewpoints accurate reflections of the world. FWIW though, I consider most of the posters on this thread unreliable narrators who have messed up views of the world.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But you REFUSE to see that women in fact are communicating directly

Other obtuse guy here. No, not refusing to see anything. I do not do subtle though. That's me. And as the other guy mentioned, if you're too subtle for a large number of people, you are failing to communicate.

Also, if you consider yourself "collateral damage" for being spoken to politely (not catcalling), you've got issues.

Guess what. MOST people (including men) in fact do understand it. A substantial portion of men need to be re-educated. Consider yourself among the latter. For people without natural social skills, sometimes you just have to follow black and white rules. So, no speaking to women unless they speak to you first. Find your dates on match.com.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.