Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It is that easy to behave appropriately in the workplace, and no one gets fired for mildly flirting once. Cast a strong side-eye at any guy who says that, because chances are they are up to more than "courting."

+1. The guys I hear complaining about "how am I gonna find someone to date now" are pretty universally shitbirds.

Ding ding ding!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

It is that simple. Even simpler is to treat women the way you want other men to treat your sister.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

But masturbating into plants? Is that still cool?

Is it bad I laughed at that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

But masturbating into plants? Is that still cool?

Is it bad I laughed at that?

Feed me, Seymour.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

But masturbating into plants? Is that still cool?

Is it bad I laughed at that?

Feed me, Seymour.

[Anonymous]

Guys conjure up this parade of horribles where women are going to lie about them years after the fact or fret about worst case scenarios in how anti-harassment policies are written. But is this happening to men in the real world?

Even if men are catching some degree of unfair backlash as the pendulum swings toward more respectful treatment of women, I strongly doubt it compares to the level of unfair treatment women receive at the hands of men who are indifferent to whether they are treating women respectfully.

[Anonymous]

Here's a good rule of thumb: If you're thinking about doing something to a woman, ask yourself -- how might a guy friend react if I did that to him?

In other words, before you leer at Joanne and tell her you like her blouse, ask yourself how Joe would react if you did that to him. Before you send Joanne a 'toy' and a note about how you'd like to use it, ask yourself how Joe would respond if you did that to him. Before you lock joanne in your office and force yourself on her . .. . You get that picture.

We're just like your guy friends only prettier.

[Anonymous]

NP. Here are two recent scenarios that I consider somewhat gray ...

1. Andy Dick. He's a C-level, has-been comedian. He was fired for lewd and inappropriate behavior, namely groping, licking people on set, and hitting on people. I'm guessing he really got fired because he's a PITA and a bad actor, but let's focus on the claims against him. He denies the groping, admits licking a face, and admits he propositioned people. "I didn't grope anybody. I might have kissed somebody on the cheek to say goodbye and then licked them. That's my thing — I licked Carrie Fisher at a roast. It's me being funny. I'm not trying to sexually harass people," he said. "I didn't grab anybody's genitals," he continued, but he did not deny that he propositioned others. "Of course I'm going to proposition people. I'm single, depressed, lonely and trying to get a date. They can just say no, and they probably did and then I was done." https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/rambling-reporter/andy-dick-fired-movie-sexual-harassment-claims-1053162

Inappropriate, or not?

2. Garrison Keillor. Over-the-hill comedian & host. Career was on the downswing anyway. “I put my hand on a woman’s bare back. I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled,” Keillor told The Minneapolis Star Tribune in an email. “I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called,” he added. Who knows if he's telling the truth or not, but if this is really all that happened, but let's accept his explanation at face value for now. http://thehill.com/homenews/media/362389-garrison-keillor-on-firing-i-put-my-hand-on-a-womans-bare-back

Inappropriate or not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about this rule: if you're interested in someone at work or elsewhere, first ask them out (as long as it's not someone you supervise because then the power dynamic is off). Don't start by trying to touch their body or make lewd comments to them. And if they say no to going out, then drop it and look elsewhere.

Seems fairly simple to me.

But the movies say I'm just supposed to know when she's interested and sweep her off her feet. If Han Solo had waited for Leia to say "yes," we would never have had Kylo Ren. O.k., bad example. But you get my point.

1. Movies are not real life. Why are you comparing life to pieces of fiction? Just because Patrick Bateman killed hookers and Paul Allen doesn't mean you have permission to do so.

2. You obviously are on the spectrum. You can't tell when a woman is receptive to your flirtatious gestures? There's a lot of body language involved, her making time to talk to you one-on-one, etc. This isn't hard.

Sincerely,
Married Dude

Can we please stop suggesting men who do this are on the spectrum? This is about power and control, not difficulty reading social cues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's a good rule of thumb: If you're thinking about doing something to a woman, ask yourself -- how might a guy friend react if I did that to him?

In other words, before you leer at Joanne and tell her you like her blouse, ask yourself how Joe would react if you did that to him. Before you send Joanne a 'toy' and a note about how you'd like to use it, ask yourself how Joe would respond if you did that to him. Before you lock joanne in your office and force yourself on her . .. . You get that picture.

We're just like your guy friends only prettier.

Another good rule of thumb is: would you say or do that to someone who had the power to fire you?

Men figure out how to negotiate consent in all other areas of their lives. This is not rocket science. Instead of thinking how close you can get to the line without getting in trouble, start thinking about the women you work with as actual human beings.

[Anonymous]

How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

[Anonymous]

^about this**

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's a good rule of thumb: If you're thinking about doing something to a woman, ask yourself -- how might a guy friend react if I did that to him?

In other words, before you leer at Joanne and tell her you like her blouse, ask yourself how Joe would react if you did that to him. Before you send Joanne a 'toy' and a note about how you'd like to use it, ask yourself how Joe would respond if you did that to him. Before you lock joanne in your office and force yourself on her . .. . You get that picture.

We're just like your guy friends only prettier.

I'm pretty sure you don't want me talking to you the way I talk to my guy friends. It's pretty twisted. The occasional necrophilia joke isn't all that uncommon.

That said, I find it pretty easy to act respectfully around women without putting them on a pedestal or any of that weird, "I cherish women" b.s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

[Anonymous]

If you would not say it to or in front of your mother or daughter, you shouldn't say it at work. If you would not want another man saying it to your mother or daughter, you shouldn't say it at work.

As for "courtship" frankly I think that people should keep their personal lives separate from their professional lives. You don't need to date your colleagues. PEriod.