Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

so it's women's fault for confusing men by making rape culture unacceptable?

This. Plus, I think the OP hasn’t ever seen the comments and photos women on dating apps receive unsolicited. Utterly vile and sometimes threatening. It’s as if simply signing up means you must be interested in seeing any random guy’s junk and hearing how he’s like to use it on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

so it's women's fault for confusing men by making rape culture unacceptable?

This. Plus, I think the OP hasn’t ever seen the comments and photos women on dating apps receive unsolicited. Utterly vile and sometimes threatening. It’s as if simply signing up means you must be interested in seeing any random guy’s junk and hearing how he’s like to use it on you.

Seriously. If I had a dollar for every woman I've known who had to shut down an online dating app after receiving a torrent of dick pics followed by vile misogynist insults and threats, I'd be rich.

[Anonymous]

Since rape or rape culture or sending unsolicited dick pics was not the topic being discussed, one or two women here are being liars. Being spoken to in a coffee shop is not assault; don't be stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since rape or rape culture or sending unsolicited dick pics was not the topic being discussed, one or two women here are being liars. Being spoken to in a coffee shop is not assault; don't be stupid.

I have definitely dealt with harassment from male coffee shop patrons who think that if I’m sitting alone in a public place, I must want or at least welcome their attentions. This includes continuing to keep talking to me despite my monosyllabic or nonverbal responses, repeatedly offering to buy me coffee or even actually buying it, though I said no, sitting down at my table without asking when there are empty seats, and giving me unneeded info about my laptop, the novel I’m reading, or my appearance. Wedding ring not a deterrent.

These things make women feel unsafe. More than once, I’ve asked a manager to let me slip out the back or called DH to pick me up.

[Anonymous]

Hearing women complain about men hitting on them all the time is like hearing a rich kid complaining that people are constantly asking him for money or that he feels unsafe walking through poor parts of town because he dresses in expensive suits and he constantly has people coming up to him, sometimes in a vaguely threatening manner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hearing women complain about men hitting on them all the time is like hearing a rich kid complaining that people are constantly asking him for money or that he feels unsafe walking through poor parts of town because he dresses in expensive suits and he constantly has people coming up to him, sometimes in a vaguely threatening manner.

so women deserve to be harassed???

[Anonymous]

My DH has a wonderful sense of humor and he took it over the top last night. Early in the evening he started dropping hints that sex would be nice and I did not discourage him. We get into bed and he suddenly whips out a clip board with a detailed consent agreement requiring me to initial my consent for everything we were going to do. The highlight was places for me to initial where the act was blank. I said what's that for and he said its for I might like that he hadn't considered and that he didn't want to exclude. We've been married a long time and he continues to make things fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

I think this is spot on. I'm married now, but I never liked "chasing." I had no interest in wasting time or bothering someone who isn't interested. But, you just don't know if that cat is dead or alive unless you open the box.

The intensity of negative responses you got for this post really caught me by surprise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

#1 is so not clear. I love to read, write and draw in public -- coffee shop, bar, park, etc. Sometimes, I want to focus without talking with random people, and I will say so, but I have met the most interesting people that way. It is a great way to meet people outside the usual circle. Sometime I just like feeling the energy of a place. The difference is like watching a game/performance on TV versus watching a game/performance in person.

I am the pp (and have responded a few other times). So, you would be ok with me saying I asking about what you are drawing? I am not going to hit on you. I just find people interesting. Or at least most people interesting. The bigger issue is people not taking no for an answer. I do not care what circumstance, no is no.

I am absolutely ok with people asking what I'm reading/drawing/writing or something unrelated. If I need to concentrate, I make that clear. Sometimes, I go places to eat or drink without do any of those things. Once on a solo trip to San Fran I was at popular restaurant for lunch. I was on vacation, but I could see some business people were there for lunch. Very crowded. I told the wait staff if there was another solo customer, I was open to sharing my table. The person who sat with me turned out to be another tourist about 15-20 years older than me, and she was so interesting. I had similar experiences without staff intervention. Sometimes other solo people are looking for a place to sit and work/read or just sit, and we say nearly nothing between us.

It makes me sad that people on this board are bent in making the world a colder place. Sure, there are some odd/awkward people out there. People need to be aware and go with their instincts. Sad that people blur the line between harassment and polite invitation to conversation. So, so sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

I think this is spot on. I'm married now, but I never liked "chasing." I had no interest in wasting time or bothering someone who isn't interested. But, you just don't know if that cat is dead or alive unless you open the box.

The intensity of negative responses you got for this post really caught me by surprise.

Most of the negativity is from the same poster. Her writing style is basically "if Joffrey Lannister was a feminist."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

I think this is spot on. I'm married now, but I never liked "chasing." I had no interest in wasting time or bothering someone who isn't interested. But, you just don't know if that cat is dead or alive unless you open the box.

The intensity of negative responses you got for this post really caught me by surprise.

Most of the negativity is from the same poster. Her writing style is basically "if Joffrey Lannister was a feminist."

You're sadly mistaken. There are many of us here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

#1 is so not clear. I love to read, write and draw in public -- coffee shop, bar, park, etc. Sometimes, I want to focus without talking with random people, and I will say so, but I have met the most interesting people that way. It is a great way to meet people outside the usual circle. Sometime I just like feeling the energy of a place. The difference is like watching a game/performance on TV versus watching a game/performance in person.

I am the pp (and have responded a few other times). So, you would be ok with me saying I asking about what you are drawing? I am not going to hit on you. I just find people interesting. Or at least most people interesting. The bigger issue is people not taking no for an answer. I do not care what circumstance, no is no.

I am absolutely ok with people asking what I'm reading/drawing/writing or something unrelated. If I need to concentrate, I make that clear. Sometimes, I go places to eat or drink without do any of those things. Once on a solo trip to San Fran I was at popular restaurant for lunch. I was on vacation, but I could see some business people were there for lunch. Very crowded. I told the wait staff if there was another solo customer, I was open to sharing my table. The person who sat with me turned out to be another tourist about 15-20 years older than me, and she was so interesting. I had similar experiences without staff intervention. Sometimes other solo people are looking for a place to sit and work/read or just sit, and we say nearly nothing between us.

It makes me sad that people on this board are bent in making the world a colder place. Sure, there are some odd/awkward people out there. People need to be aware and go with their instincts. Sad that people blur the line between harassment and polite invitation to conversation. So, so sad.

You can't see the difference between harassing a woman, and asking a waiter to offer the empty seat at your table to someone who agreed to it?

There's a reason the line between polite conversation and harassment has been blurred, and it's not because women are too uptight or whatever ...

[Anonymous]

Most men I know met their SO or wives through real life social networks or dating websites rather than hitting on coworkers or random strange women.

If your already partnered up male friends aren’t introducing you to single women they know (maybe with a prod from their wife), this is telling about your character.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

I mentioned this several pages ago and got no responses, so I'm gonna say it again.

For most of history, women have been property. We were not allowed to say no to male advances or attention. There were no rules against sexual harassment in the workplace, in addition to the many other extremely misogynistic policies associated with paid outside-the-home work for women. "The rule" for generations was that men got to choose who they were interested in and pursue that woman. They had to ask her father's permission to do so in many if not most instances. Her interest in their attention was completely irrelevant. I am not unsympathetic to the damage that the patriarchy has done to men, and I think it's truly unfortunate that many of y'all have felt uncomfortable approaching women in any context. But don't sit here and pretend that any of this is the fault of women. We didn't make the rules, and insofar as we are "shifting the goalposts" it is in the direction of actually being able to control who we speak to and how we engage with the world.

And for the other PP, no one is saying that unwanted attention in a coffee shop is the same as rape. Literally no one is saying that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

I mentioned this several pages ago and got no responses, so I'm gonna say it again.

For most of history, women have been property. We were not allowed to say no to male advances or attention. There were no rules against sexual harassment in the workplace, in addition to the many other extremely misogynistic policies associated with paid outside-the-home work for women. "The rule" for generations was that men got to choose who they were interested in and pursue that woman. They had to ask her father's permission to do so in many if not most instances. Her interest in their attention was completely irrelevant. I am not unsympathetic to the damage that the patriarchy has done to men, and I think it's truly unfortunate that many of y'all have felt uncomfortable approaching women in any context. But don't sit here and pretend that any of this is the fault of women. We didn't make the rules, and insofar as we are "shifting the goalposts" it is in the direction of actually being able to control who we speak to and how we engage with the world.

And for the other PP, no one is saying that unwanted attention in a coffee shop is the same as rape. Literally no one is saying that.

I didn't see blame in PPs post about the goal posts moving. Expectations are changing, and they're changing at varying rates. Some women view men as unmanly if they don't pursue. Some women still think playing hard-to-get is a good idea. Some men will lose respect in the eyes of other men if they aren't pursuing and being successful with women. Other groups have the more progressive view that men and women ought to be forthright about their interest or disinterest and that one's worth as a person ought not have anything to do with their interactions with the other sex.

It's not a surprise that people are going to get it wrong sometimes. And, just to complicate things, some men whose intentions are malicious are more than happy to use this ambiguity as a smoke screen to give them cover for predatory behavior.