Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. Here are two recent scenarios that I consider somewhat gray ...

1. Andy Dick. He's a C-level, has-been comedian. He was fired for lewd and inappropriate behavior, namely groping, licking people on set, and hitting on people. I'm guessing he really got fired because he's a PITA and a bad actor, but let's focus on the claims against him. He denies the groping, admits licking a face, and admits he propositioned people. "I didn't grope anybody. I might have kissed somebody on the cheek to say goodbye and then licked them. That's my thing — I licked Carrie Fisher at a roast. It's me being funny. I'm not trying to sexually harass people," he said. "I didn't grab anybody's genitals," he continued, but he did not deny that he propositioned others. "Of course I'm going to proposition people. I'm single, depressed, lonely and trying to get a date. They can just say no, and they probably did and then I was done." https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/rambling-reporter/andy-dick-fired-movie-sexual-harassment-claims-1053162

Inappropriate, or not?

2. Garrison Keillor. Over-the-hill comedian & host. Career was on the downswing anyway. “I put my hand on a woman’s bare back. I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled,” Keillor told The Minneapolis Star Tribune in an email. “I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called,” he added. Who knows if he's telling the truth or not, but if this is really all that happened, but let's accept his explanation at face value for now. http://thehill.com/homenews/media/362389-garrison-keillor-on-firing-i-put-my-hand-on-a-womans-bare-back

Inappropriate or not?

Andy Dick is the worst example of a "gray area" ever! The guy is living personal boundary violation machine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Here are two recent scenarios that I consider somewhat gray ...

1. Andy Dick. He's a C-level, has-been comedian. He was fired for lewd and inappropriate behavior, namely groping, licking people on set, and hitting on people. I'm guessing he really got fired because he's a PITA and a bad actor, but let's focus on the claims against him. He denies the groping, admits licking a face, and admits he propositioned people. "I didn't grope anybody. I might have kissed somebody on the cheek to say goodbye and then licked them. That's my thing — I licked Carrie Fisher at a roast. It's me being funny. I'm not trying to sexually harass people," he said. "I didn't grab anybody's genitals," he continued, but he did not deny that he propositioned others. "Of course I'm going to proposition people. I'm single, depressed, lonely and trying to get a date. They can just say no, and they probably did and then I was done." https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/rambling-reporter/andy-dick-fired-movie-sexual-harassment-claims-1053162

Inappropriate, or not?

2. Garrison Keillor. Over-the-hill comedian & host. Career was on the downswing anyway. “I put my hand on a woman’s bare back. I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled,” Keillor told The Minneapolis Star Tribune in an email. “I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called,” he added. Who knows if he's telling the truth or not, but if this is really all that happened, but let's accept his explanation at face value for now. http://thehill.com/homenews/media/362389-garrison-keillor-on-firing-i-put-my-hand-on-a-womans-bare-back

Inappropriate or not?

Andy Dick is the worst example of a "gray area" ever! The guy is living personal boundary violation machine.

Of course his whole schtick is based on violating boundaries. As Dick himself said: "My middle name is ‘misconduct.’ They know what they signed up for."' But if what he really did was proposition 4 people on set, and didn't grope anyone, is that inappropriate or not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

But masturbating into plants? Is that still cool?

How about pubic hairs in coffee?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

Different poster - I think there is more leeway for men to joke with other men about sexual content because it's not the norm for men to be seeking sex from other men. There's less likelihood that: a) the joke will be misperceived as being serious; and/or b) the "just joking" will be used as a pretext to cover up what was really harassment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

But masturbating into plants? Is that still cool?

How about pubic hairs in coffee?

Do that, and the only job you'll be able to get is Supreme Court Justice -- much like U.S. Senator is one of the few job opportunities for child molesters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

Yes, but if I made the same joking sexualized comments to a female co-worker (“hey Mary, I see you’re wearing those tight slacks again to show off your toned ass!”), it would be a problem.

And if I told my male co-worker that I like his new haircut, it would also be weird. But the same comment to a female co-worker would not.

I’m not trying to excuse inappropriate behavior or comments. I’m just saying there isn’t a one to one comparison between what comments are appropriate or not between same sex and opposite sex conversations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

Yes, but if I made the same joking sexualized comments to a female co-worker (“hey Mary, I see you’re wearing those tight slacks again to show off your toned ass!”), it would be a problem.

And if I told my male co-worker that I like his new haircut, it would also be weird. But the same comment to a female co-worker would not.

I’m not trying to excuse inappropriate behavior or comments. I’m just saying there isn’t a one to one comparison between what comments are appropriate or not between same sex and opposite sex conversations.

You shouldn’t be commenting on your female coworkers haircut either, actually. That’s the whole point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Can’t agree with you on rule 1. I’m a married late 30s guy and before meeting my wife, I dated five women at three different jobs. They were there, willing, and available. Stuff happens.

[Anonymous]

1645 again. I also think it’s easy to say “no personal relations with co workers” but that’s not terribly realistic. It’s an easy rule for me to follow because I’m married for a long time and not interested in anyone else. But many of my friends married, and previously dated, co workers. Many of my single co workers date each other. It’s simply unavoidable that some co workers will have personal relations and some of those will involve sex. Navigating what’s appropriate and inappropriate can be difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

Yes, but if I made the same joking sexualized comments to a female co-worker (“hey Mary, I see you’re wearing those tight slacks again to show off your toned ass!”), it would be a problem.

And if I told my male co-worker that I like his new haircut, it would also be weird. But the same comment to a female co-worker would not.

I’m not trying to excuse inappropriate behavior or comments. I’m just saying there isn’t a one to one comparison between what comments are appropriate or not between same sex and opposite sex conversations.

You shouldn’t be commenting on your female coworkers haircut either, actually. That’s the whole point.

Really? You never compliment another person who you work with?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

Yes, but if I made the same joking sexualized comments to a female co-worker (“hey Mary, I see you’re wearing those tight slacks again to show off your toned ass!”), it would be a problem.

And if I told my male co-worker that I like his new haircut, it would also be weird. But the same comment to a female co-worker would not.

I’m not trying to excuse inappropriate behavior or comments. I’m just saying there isn’t a one to one comparison between what comments are appropriate or not between same sex and opposite sex conversations.

You shouldn’t be commenting on your female coworkers haircut either, actually. That’s the whole point.

Really? You never compliment another person who you work with?

NP here, and female. I have been thinking about this lately because obviously this stuff is all over the news and coming up everywhere. But I can honestly say that I have never felt constrained by not telling a coworker "you look nice/attractive/fit" or whatever. I compliment my coworkers all the time on their work performance, thank them for how they handle things in my absence, etc. I have commented to male coworkers "I see you got new glasses" and left it at that. This has not made me feel like I am not developing rapport with them, and I think it's odd that some men seem to feel like they have to comment on appearance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You shouldn’t be commenting on your female coworkers haircut either, actually. That’s the whole point.

Really? You never compliment another person who you work with?

NP here, and female. I have been thinking about this lately because obviously this stuff is all over the news and coming up everywhere. But I can honestly say that I have never felt constrained by not telling a coworker "you look nice/attractive/fit" or whatever. I compliment my coworkers all the time on their work performance, thank them for how they handle things in my absence, etc. I have commented to male coworkers "I see you got new glasses" and left it at that. This has not made me feel like I am not developing rapport with them, and I think it's odd that some men seem to feel like they have to comment on appearance.

I can't imagine telling a co-worker "you look fit" - that seems too body-related. I absolutely will comment to a male co-worker if I think he's lost weight; but I'd never comment at all on weight to a female co-worker. If a female (or male) co-worker shows up with a new haircut ...



... then I'm absolutely going to compliment the new look (even if it's a bad haircut).

I don't see a problem with any of that. Do you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You shouldn’t be commenting on your female coworkers haircut either, actually. That’s the whole point.

Really? You never compliment another person who you work with?

NP here, and female. I have been thinking about this lately because obviously this stuff is all over the news and coming up everywhere. But I can honestly say that I have never felt constrained by not telling a coworker "you look nice/attractive/fit" or whatever. I compliment my coworkers all the time on their work performance, thank them for how they handle things in my absence, etc. I have commented to male coworkers "I see you got new glasses" and left it at that. This has not made me feel like I am not developing rapport with them, and I think it's odd that some men seem to feel like they have to comment on appearance.

I can't imagine telling a co-worker "you look fit" - that seems too body-related. I absolutely will comment to a male co-worker if I think he's lost weight; but I'd never comment at all on weight to a female co-worker. If a female (or male) co-worker shows up with a new haircut ...



... then I'm absolutely going to compliment the new look (even if it's a bad haircut).

I don't see a problem with any of that. Do you?

DP, but why only women? Do you compliment men's haircuts? People (and I use the term advisedly, women do this too) really don't realize how often they default to talking about appearance with women. It's culturally ingrained. Clothes, "have you lost weight?!", hair, even just "you look nice today"; it's constant. Men don't get these comments so they think of it as a rare but appreciated compliment. Women get it all the time and the cumulative effect is that it's just a way that society defaults us to not serious or decorative, while men are considered substantive and vital.