Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

[Anonymous]

Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

[Anonymous]

How about this rule: if you're interested in someone at work or elsewhere, first ask them out (as long as it's not someone you supervise because then the power dynamic is off). Don't start by trying to touch their body or make lewd comments to them. And if they say no to going out, then drop it and look elsewhere.

Seems fairly simple to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

[Anonymous]

No. It is that easy to behave appropriately in the workplace, and no one gets fired for mildly flirting once. Cast a strong side-eye at any guy who says that, because chances are they are up to more than "courting."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No. It is that easy to behave appropriately in the workplace, and no one gets fired for mildly flirting once. Cast a strong side-eye at any guy who says that, because chances are they are up to more than "courting."

+1. The guys I hear complaining about "how am I gonna find someone to date now" are pretty universally shitbirds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

But masturbating into plants? Is that still cool?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about this rule: if you're interested in someone at work or elsewhere, first ask them out (as long as it's not someone you supervise because then the power dynamic is off). Don't start by trying to touch their body or make lewd comments to them. And if they say no to going out, then drop it and look elsewhere.

Seems fairly simple to me.

But the movies say I'm just supposed to know when she's interested and sweep her off her feet. If Han Solo had waited for Leia to say "yes," we would never have had Kylo Ren. O.k., bad example. But you get my point.

[Anonymous]

A smart man will not engage in any sort of flirting ( a normal way men and women had interacted for centuries) or romance (mutually agreed upon sexual relationship) at all in today's America, especially not in a workplace. It's not worth risking one's reputation, employment, and life. There are plenty of options for American males outside of the urban, leftist American female.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about this rule: if you're interested in someone at work or elsewhere, first ask them out (as long as it's not someone you supervise because then the power dynamic is off). Don't start by trying to touch their body or make lewd comments to them. And if they say no to going out, then drop it and look elsewhere.

Seems fairly simple to me.

But the movies say I'm just supposed to know when she's interested and sweep her off her feet. If Han Solo had waited for Leia to say "yes," we would never have had Kylo Ren. O.k., bad example. But you get my point.

1. Movies are not real life. Why are you comparing life to pieces of fiction? Just because Patrick Bateman killed hookers and Paul Allen doesn't mean you have permission to do so.

2. You obviously are on the spectrum. You can't tell when a woman is receptive to your flirtatious gestures? There's a lot of body language involved, her making time to talk to you one-on-one, etc. This isn't hard.

Sincerely,
Married Dude

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A smart man will not engage in any sort of flirting ( a normal way men and women had interacted for centuries) or romance (mutually agreed upon sexual relationship) at all in today's America, especially not in a workplace. It's not worth risking one's reputation, employment, and life. There are plenty of options for American males outside of the urban, leftist American female.

Oh bullshit. No one making the news right now was in a grey area. Weinstein used force, Roy Moore pursued high schoolers, Al Franken patted or pinched women he wasn't dating, and others were doing equally inappropriate stuff. (Franken horsing around with the one sleeping gal in the photo is merely silly however.)

None of that is dating. And if you want to comment on a coworker's appearance, that's been dangerous for years now; you better know your audience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

[Anonymous]

I'm a guy and my flirting days are long past me. I think it's obvious not to touch women or expose yourself (ok, not that obvious to some men obviously) but I can see it being a grey area when it comes to verbal flirting. It seems like making any comment about one's clothing or physical appearance is off-limits. For example, if a colleague tells me she's been training for a marathon, I guess it's harrassment if I tell her she looks quite fit.

Then I attend some professional conferences and their policies are really broad. Anything the other party finds offensive that I say to them can get me kicked out. It could be non-sexual at all, like maybe we have different political views or in my case (technical conferences) different views on technical architecture. Maybe I say all people who like Apple products are mindless lemmings who will buy anything Apple has to offer. If the other person likes Apple, that's offensive to them.