Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the person you've been arguing with.

It seems like you are having a hard time understanding the experiences that women on this thread are relating to you of how regularly they experience unwanted attention in public. If you are not comfortable with the term harassment, that's fine, but I do think that you should appreciate that when you strike up a conversation with a woman who is reading the same thing you're reading, it may be the first time today that you've done that, but for that woman, it's entirely possible that she's been fending off "friendly" approaches about the book she's reading, the shirt she's wearing, whether the empty chair at her table is taken, what strange weather we're having lately, etc. all morning. That's not your fault or your responsibility, but if you cannot understand why women sometimes seem to get easily upset by what you believe are routine interactions, consider that their experience is likely a lot different than yours.

Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation. The reality is that if you want to be respectful, it's truly better to mind your own business. By your own statement, you're happily married, so you don't need to be chatting up women in Starbucks who are reading the same book as you. You don't need to compliment your colleague on her haircut. None of those things are essential to your life or happiness. When someone tells you that this thing you are doing makes them uncomfortable, and it costs you nothing to stop doing that thing, and instead of stopping that thing, you choose to argue self righteously that you disagree that they should feel uncomfortable and will continue to do the thing that is causing discomfort, that tells me that you are not a person who cares at all about the experiences of other people. You are attached to your own experience and screw what anyone else thinks or feels.

Thank you for your (mostly) thoughtful response.

I appreciate your point about how a woman sitting in a coffeeshop might've been chatted up by others, so she might not want to talk to me when I comment that I'm reading the same book. But there are only two choices: (1) I just refuse to talk to women in coffeeshops and only talk to men, for fear that I might inadvertently offend a woman who doesn't want to talk, or (2) I make my book comment, and then only continue the conversation if she wants to. If those are my two choices, I would rather choose option 2, because I'm a social person. I trust if she doesn't want to talk, she'll just say" Yes, it's good," and go back to her pages. I'm not going to be offended, and contrary to what some people on this thread seem to suggest, I'm not going to get violent.

I don't understand why you'd go to a bar to read a book, especially during happy hour. Of course someone's going to talk to you at happy hour, whether you're a man or woman. So maybe that's a bad example. But I take your point that women probably get talked to more than men.

I hear your point that no one needs to comment on a stranger's book, or compliment anyone's appearance. No communication at all is essential. But it's part of being social. I choose to live in a world where people can talk to one another.

If I had some indication that my co-workers (male or female) do not want to be complimented when they get new haircuts, I'd stop. But quite frankly, the response is usually something like "Thanks so much!" and then a few minutes of the person telling me about it. People are usually pretty excited to talk about it when they get a new and different haircut. Don't you ever compliment people you don't know well? Maybe you should try it sometime. Believe it or not, some people (both men and women) consider it flattering.

As for the people on this thread saying personal interactions (conversations in public or hairstyle compliments) make them uncomfortable, I'd certainly take that into consideration if I considered their viewpoints accurate reflections of the world. FWIW though, I consider most of the posters on this thread unreliable narrators who have messed up views of the world.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments.

Dude, you are the worst. Do whatever you want, but know that you're bugging the "cute chicks" in the coffee shop, and you just don't care that you are. I don't believe for a hot minute that you're chatting equally with young and old, male and female, white and black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

You can't understand why women think they have a right to be in public without being obliged to talk to everyone who thinks she should talk to them?

That's very, very sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

I'm the poster you're responding to.

Fine, you don't like the coffee shop or bar example. I personally find sitting in such a place and enjoying a drink of some kind while reading to be relaxing and mellow. Your mileage may vary, obviously. In my experience, however, a woman sitting alone somewhere - anywhere - is an open invitation in a way that a man sitting alone just isn't. This has happened to me at airports, while sitting by myself near the gate waiting to board. It's happened to me in line at the grocery store. It's happened to me in the elevator of my office building. In my observation, that sort of thing doesn't happen to men. The last time I was at a bar alone with a book (which in your view means I should expect to be talked to) waiting for a friend to join me for happy hour, there was a man sitting a few seats away, also by himself. In the 30 minutes I was waiting for my friend, two men approached me. Zero people of any sex approached the man sitting alone.

As for complaining about people talking to them, I guess we will just have to disagree. Being in public doesn't mean that you are open to all public interactions. Yes, you can just shut it down, and it's not a difficult concept to pick up. I learned the same lessons you did as a teenager. My point is that if the men of the world would consider that maybe that woman sitting alone or that teenage girl on the bus or whoever does not want to talk to them and then decided NOT to try to strike up a conversation with a strange woman, that would also address the problem.

At the end of the day, because we live in a social environment, yes, I expect people to talk to other people in public. But the attitude of a lot of men is that women should be flattered that they are getting attention, that women who are uncomfortable with strangers talking to them in public are damaged or overly sensitive, etc. is pretty entitled imho.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the person you've been arguing with.

It seems like you are having a hard time understanding the experiences that women on this thread are relating to you of how regularly they experience unwanted attention in public. If you are not comfortable with the term harassment, that's fine, but I do think that you should appreciate that when you strike up a conversation with a woman who is reading the same thing you're reading, it may be the first time today that you've done that, but for that woman, it's entirely possible that she's been fending off "friendly" approaches about the book she's reading, the shirt she's wearing, whether the empty chair at her table is taken, what strange weather we're having lately, etc. all morning. That's not your fault or your responsibility, but if you cannot understand why women sometimes seem to get easily upset by what you believe are routine interactions, consider that their experience is likely a lot different than yours.

Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation. The reality is that if you want to be respectful, it's truly better to mind your own business. By your own statement, you're happily married, so you don't need to be chatting up women in Starbucks who are reading the same book as you. You don't need to compliment your colleague on her haircut. None of those things are essential to your life or happiness. When someone tells you that this thing you are doing makes them uncomfortable, and it costs you nothing to stop doing that thing, and instead of stopping that thing, you choose to argue self righteously that you disagree that they should feel uncomfortable and will continue to do the thing that is causing discomfort, that tells me that you are not a person who cares at all about the experiences of other people. You are attached to your own experience and screw what anyone else thinks or feels.

Thank you for your (mostly) thoughtful response.

I appreciate your point about how a woman sitting in a coffeeshop might've been chatted up by others, so she might not want to talk to me when I comment that I'm reading the same book. But there are only two choices: (1) I just refuse to talk to women in coffeeshops and only talk to men, for fear that I might inadvertently offend a woman who doesn't want to talk, or (2) I make my book comment, and then only continue the conversation if she wants to. If those are my two choices, I would rather choose option 2, because I'm a social person. I trust if she doesn't want to talk, she'll just say" Yes, it's good," and go back to her pages. I'm not going to be offended, and contrary to what some people on this thread seem to suggest, I'm not going to get violent.

I don't understand why you'd go to a bar to read a book, especially during happy hour. Of course someone's going to talk to you at happy hour, whether you're a man or woman. So maybe that's a bad example. But I take your point that women probably get talked to more than men.

I hear your point that no one needs to comment on a stranger's book, or compliment anyone's appearance. No communication at all is essential. But it's part of being social. I choose to live in a world where people can talk to one another.

If I had some indication that my co-workers (male or female) do not want to be complimented when they get new haircuts, I'd stop. But quite frankly, the response is usually something like "Thanks so much!" and then a few minutes of the person telling me about it. People are usually pretty excited to talk about it when they get a new and different haircut. Don't you ever compliment people you don't know well? Maybe you should try it sometime. Believe it or not, some people (both men and women) consider it flattering.

As for the people on this thread saying personal interactions (conversations in public or hairstyle compliments) make them uncomfortable, I'd certainly take that into consideration if I considered their viewpoints accurate reflections of the world. FWIW though, I consider most of the posters on this thread unreliable narrators who have messed up views of the world.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments.

Dude, you are the worst. Do whatever you want, but know that you're bugging the "cute chicks" in the coffee shop, and you just don't care that you are. I don't believe for a hot minute that you're chatting equally with young and old, male and female, white and black.

I'm the original PP, and for the record, I do not see this happening to men. The PP can try to frame his behavior as platonic and friendly, just him being a social guy, but when it disproportionately happens to women, I'm skeptical overall. The PP knows what's going on in his head, and my intention with my post was simply to point out that women's experience of "friendly attention" is different and likely skewed by how often that attention is persistent and unwanted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

You can't understand why women think they have a right to be in public without being obliged to talk to everyone who thinks she should talk to them?

That's very, very sad.

It’s ego. What a lot of men can’t understand is how they aren’t god’s biggest gift to the world to absolutely everyone under the sun.
Who raised these people??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

You can't understand why women think they have a right to be in public without being obliged to talk to everyone who thinks she should talk to them?

That's very, very sad.

It’s ego. What a lot of men can’t understand is how they aren’t god’s biggest gift to the world to absolutely everyone under the sun.
Who raised these people??

My DH can go anywhere he wants, public place or not, with his book and his thoughts, and no women will pester him, despite his being handsome.
When he was young sometimes gay men would pester him - and here we are back to men not getting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

You have basically hijacked a discussion about sexual harassment and turned it into your "right" to not be spoken to by men in bars and coffeehouses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

You have basically hijacked a discussion about sexual harassment and turned it into your "right" to not be spoken to by men in bars and coffeehouses.

As was discussed several pages ago, there are a variety of people posting here.

I am the original PP who offered the experience that women alone in public receive a lot of attention, such that even things that are intended to be "friendly" make some of us feel uncomfortable. I would apply this same logic to conversation at work. Just because you think that your comment to a stranger is nice and friendly does not mean that it will be taken in that manner. I would encourage the males in this conversation to think about how often women's appearances are commented on - even in a way that is intended to be friendly - and then consider whether those comments are necessary, particularly given that those comments may make someone uncomfortable. If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

[Anonymous]

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Actually, many of us women have stopped commenting on appearances at least a few years ago. I’ve learned to try to compliment people on things other than their appearance. Even if it’s positive, my complimenting their appearance just shows I’m judging them in that way. On at least a few ocassionally I realize I’ve stuck my foot in my mouth by doing that.

There are more interesting things to comment on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Actually, many of us women have stopped commenting on appearances at least a few years ago. I’ve learned to try to compliment people on things other than their appearance. Even if it’s positive, my complimenting their appearance just shows I’m judging them in that way. On at least a few ocassionally I realize I’ve stuck my foot in my mouth by doing that.

There are more interesting things to comment on.

+1. Some of the most hurtful comments I’ve received, and while pregnant, were men and women commenting on my size or shape. You cannot imagine, if you’ve never been hugely pregnant at 6 months, how MUCH IT HURTS. And dreading going out into public every time. Even dreading going to a sanctuary such as church, because of the little comments.

^^so what does this have to do with this conversation?
It’s a tangent to *relate my experience that i don’t believe everyone has had**

Please listen to the feeling I’m sharing now.
Realize that other people are sharing what it’s like to be asked out again and again. Realize that not everyone experiences the same. And be *open to changing your behavior* instead of trying to win the World Cup of stubborn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Yes, I think it's a good rule of thumb not to comment on your colleague's appearance unless you are absolutely certain they won't mind. How hard is that? There's a huge range of other small talk you can make. And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut. Commenting on appearance is something between intimates, not coworkers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Yes, I think it's a good rule of thumb not to comment on your colleague's appearance unless you are absolutely certain they won't mind. How hard is that? There's a huge range of other small talk you can make. And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut. Commenting on appearance is something between intimates, not coworkers.

Let's be crystal clear though - your post did not limit it to colleagues, but rather encompassed everyone in the "world." If you view really is that no appearance-related comments should ever be made, I want you to say that directly and clearly. The only limitation I hear from you is for "intimates" which I take to mean family or very close friends. Is that really what you're saying?

Also, I'm curious if you think the same "rule" applies to women commenting on men's appearance, or women commenting on women's appearance. I pretty routinely hear female colleagues compliment one another's appearance. My wife will pretty routinely compliment both women and men at the market or at restaurants if she likes their hair/jewelry/clothes. People always appear to respond positively, but maybe they secretly loathe us both. Should I tell my wife many people on DCUM think her comments are inappropriate?

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.