Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

#1 is so not clear. I love to read, write and draw in public -- coffee shop, bar, park, etc. Sometimes, I want to focus without talking with random people, and I will say so, but I have met the most interesting people that way. It is a great way to meet people outside the usual circle. Sometime I just like feeling the energy of a place. The difference is like watching a game/performance on TV versus watching a game/performance in person.

I am the pp (and have responded a few other times). So, you would be ok with me saying I asking about what you are drawing? I am not going to hit on you. I just find people interesting. Or at least most people interesting. The bigger issue is people not taking no for an answer. I do not care what circumstance, no is no.

I am absolutely ok with people asking what I'm reading/drawing/writing or something unrelated. If I need to concentrate, I make that clear. Sometimes, I go places to eat or drink without do any of those things. Once on a solo trip to San Fran I was at popular restaurant for lunch. I was on vacation, but I could see some business people were there for lunch. Very crowded. I told the wait staff if there was another solo customer, I was open to sharing my table. The person who sat with me turned out to be another tourist about 15-20 years older than me, and she was so interesting. I had similar experiences without staff intervention. Sometimes other solo people are looking for a place to sit and work/read or just sit, and we say nearly nothing between us.

It makes me sad that people on this board are bent in making the world a colder place. Sure, there are some odd/awkward people out there. People need to be aware and go with their instincts. Sad that people blur the line between harassment and polite invitation to conversation. So, so sad.

You can't see the difference between harassing a woman, and asking a waiter to offer the empty seat at your table to someone who agreed to it?

There's a reason the line between polite conversation and harassment has been blurred, and it's not because women are too uptight or whatever ...

I'm objecting to people who take someone talking to them eg in line at Starbucks as harassment. See posters above. And I don't always initiate the invitation. And yes, there are people here blurring the lines, sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

You could more simply and honestly say: “unattractive guys need not apply”.

Just stop with the "unattractive guys" whining. Most people (men and women) are not super attractive, most people are average. And most people fall in love with someone because they are attracted to the person. I've dated people of all different types but I only wanted to marry one of them, and I couldn't tell you why but it wasn't his looks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

You could more simply and honestly say: “unattractive guys need not apply”.

Just stop with the "unattractive guys" whining. Most people (men and women) are not super attractive, most people are average. And most people fall in love with someone because they are attracted to the person. I've dated people of all different types but I only wanted to marry one of them, and I couldn't tell you why but it wasn't his looks.

I am a pp in the thread, mid 50's male, not attractive...("does this look like the body of someone who shares food"). I talk to random people in the coffee line. I find people interesting (more so than my phone), and I will chat, and maybe even joke. In no way am I suggesting there is potential for anything between us, and I am not leering. I do not think I have ever run into people that were bothered by that, and I have made friends this way.

[Anonymous]

One day my secretary came to work with curly hair. I asked her if she had just got a perm, she replied no her hair is curly and so straitens it before work but today she was running late.

Another time I commented on if she changed the color of her hair, she said yes I had highlights a week ago.

She has told me before she likes a particular shirt I am wearing.

A man that works for me today asked where I got a sweater and that it looked warm.

I will say good morning to any person I walk pass unless they are looking at the ground to avoid eye contact.

I went out with a girl I sort of knew from a mutual friend. She was bored and said we should hang out, so I took her to a dive bar to play pool and have a couple drinks out in the car I reached over and kissed her. She told me afterwards it was a huge turn on that I would take control like that.

The girl I kissed I could see that as possible harassment, but I had a feeling since she asked me to hang out she was interested.

What about the other instances?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One day my secretary came to work with curly hair. I asked her if she had just got a perm, she replied no her hair is curly and so straitens it before work but today she was running late.

Another time I commented on if she changed the color of her hair, she said yes I had highlights a week ago.

She has told me before she likes a particular shirt I am wearing.

A man that works for me today asked where I got a sweater and that it looked warm.

I will say good morning to any person I walk pass unless they are looking at the ground to avoid eye contact.

I went out with a girl I sort of knew from a mutual friend. She was bored and said we should hang out, so I took her to a dive bar to play pool and have a couple drinks out in the car I reached over and kissed her. She told me afterwards it was a huge turn on that I would take control like that.

The girl I kissed I could see that as possible harassment, but I had a feeling since she asked me to hang out she was interested.

What about the other instances?

There is no need to comment on your secretary's appearance. She also does not need to comment on your appearance. It's unprofessional. The sweater thing is fine. Saying good morning is fine as long as you aren't abrasive about it.

The situation with the girl is clearly not a problem since she affirmatively told you that she liked it and had given you indications that she was interested in you.

This is really not that complicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One day my secretary came to work with curly hair. I asked her if she had just got a perm, she replied no her hair is curly and so straitens it before work but today she was running late.

Another time I commented on if she changed the color of her hair, she said yes I had highlights a week ago.

She has told me before she likes a particular shirt I am wearing.

A man that works for me today asked where I got a sweater and that it looked warm.

I will say good morning to any person I walk pass unless they are looking at the ground to avoid eye contact.

I went out with a girl I sort of knew from a mutual friend. She was bored and said we should hang out, so I took her to a dive bar to play pool and have a couple drinks out in the car I reached over and kissed her. She told me afterwards it was a huge turn on that I would take control like that.

The girl I kissed I could see that as possible harassment, but I had a feeling since she asked me to hang out she was interested.

What about the other instances?

There is no need to comment on your secretary's appearance. She also does not need to comment on your appearance. It's unprofessional. The sweater thing is fine. Saying good morning is fine as long as you aren't abrasive about it.

The situation with the girl is clearly not a problem since she affirmatively told you that she liked it and had given you indications that she was interested in you.

This is really not that complicated.

You are out with a member of the appropriate sex, who knows they are a member of the appropriate sex. Unless there is reason to believe the purpose is not romatic (e.g., she works for you), either person going in for a kiss is ok. What is not ok is to corner her so she does not have an option to say no. Or, if her rejecting you could have negative repercussions (e.g., boss), then she may feel like she can't say no -- she needs the job. (even if you would be ok with it).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Here are two recent scenarios that I consider somewhat gray ...

1. Andy Dick. He's a C-level, has-been comedian. He was fired for lewd and inappropriate behavior, namely groping, licking people on set, and hitting on people. I'm guessing he really got fired because he's a PITA and a bad actor, but let's focus on the claims against him. He denies the groping, admits licking a face, and admits he propositioned people. "I didn't grope anybody. I might have kissed somebody on the cheek to say goodbye and then licked them. That's my thing — I licked Carrie Fisher at a roast. It's me being funny. I'm not trying to sexually harass people," he said. "I didn't grab anybody's genitals," he continued, but he did not deny that he propositioned others. "Of course I'm going to proposition people. I'm single, depressed, lonely and trying to get a date. They can just say no, and they probably did and then I was done." https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/rambling-reporter/andy-dick-fired-movie-sexual-harassment-claims-1053162

Inappropriate, or not?

2. Garrison Keillor. Over-the-hill comedian & host. Career was on the downswing anyway. “I put my hand on a woman’s bare back. I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled,” Keillor told The Minneapolis Star Tribune in an email. “I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called,” he added. Who knows if he's telling the truth or not, but if this is really all that happened, but let's accept his explanation at face value for now. http://thehill.com/homenews/media/362389-garrison-keillor-on-firing-i-put-my-hand-on-a-womans-bare-back

Inappropriate or not?

Andy Dick is the worst example of a "gray area" ever! The guy is living personal boundary violation machine.

Of course his whole schtick is based on violating boundaries. As Dick himself said: "My middle name is ‘misconduct.’ They know what they signed up for."' But if what he really did was proposition 4 people on set, and didn't grope anyone, is that inappropriate or not?

I mean I don't know what you're into but yes, someone licking me at work would be innapropriate. Without question. I don't like to have my face or arms or whatever licked by a stranger or a friend and shouldn't encounter the possibility in a professional environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean I don't know what you're into but yes, someone licking me at work would be innapropriate. Without question. I don't like to have my face or arms or whatever licked by a stranger or a friend and shouldn't encounter the possibility in a professional environment.

Um, I don't even like being licked by my toddler, which happens more often than I care to think about...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

The answer is to return to the traditional matchmaker practice. That will eliminate all speculations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One day my secretary came to work with curly hair. I asked her if she had just got a perm, she replied no her hair is curly and so straitens it before work but today she was running late.

Another time I commented on if she changed the color of her hair, she said yes I had highlights a week ago.

She has told me before she likes a particular shirt I am wearing.

A man that works for me today asked where I got a sweater and that it looked warm.

I will say good morning to any person I walk pass unless they are looking at the ground to avoid eye contact.

I went out with a girl I sort of knew from a mutual friend. She was bored and said we should hang out, so I took her to a dive bar to play pool and have a couple drinks out in the car I reached over and kissed her. She told me afterwards it was a huge turn on that I would take control like that.

The girl I kissed I could see that as possible harassment, but I had a feeling since she asked me to hang out she was interested.

What about the other instances?

There is no need to comment on your secretary's appearance. She also does not need to comment on your appearance. It's unprofessional. The sweater thing is fine. Saying good morning is fine as long as you aren't abrasive about it.

The situation with the girl is clearly not a problem since she affirmatively told you that she liked it and had given you indications that she was interested in you.

This is really not that complicated.

That's funny. I've actually got into trouble with women at the office because I did *not* complement them on their new hair style ("You don't like my new hair??"/"You didn't say anything. Is it that bad?").

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One day my secretary came to work with curly hair. I asked her if she had just got a perm, she replied no her hair is curly and so straitens it before work but today she was running late.

Another time I commented on if she changed the color of her hair, she said yes I had highlights a week ago.

She has told me before she likes a particular shirt I am wearing.

A man that works for me today asked where I got a sweater and that it looked warm.

I will say good morning to any person I walk pass unless they are looking at the ground to avoid eye contact.

I went out with a girl I sort of knew from a mutual friend. She was bored and said we should hang out, so I took her to a dive bar to play pool and have a couple drinks out in the car I reached over and kissed her. She told me afterwards it was a huge turn on that I would take control like that.

The girl I kissed I could see that as possible harassment, but I had a feeling since she asked me to hang out she was interested.

What about the other instances?

There is no need to comment on your secretary's appearance. She also does not need to comment on your appearance. It's unprofessional. The sweater thing is fine. Saying good morning is fine as long as you aren't abrasive about it.

The situation with the girl is clearly not a problem since she affirmatively told you that she liked it and had given you indications that she was interested in you.

This is really not that complicated.

That's funny. I've actually got into trouble with women at the office because I did *not* complement them on their new hair style ("You don't like my new hair??"/"You didn't say anything. Is it that bad?").

You have not "gotten into trouble." The appropriate response to those questions is, "I did notice, but I try not to comment on people's personal appearance at work. I'm sorry you felt slighted." and then move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A smart man will not engage in any sort of flirting ( a normal way men and women had interacted for centuries) or romance (mutually agreed upon sexual relationship) at all in today's America, especially not in a workplace. It's not worth risking one's reputation, employment, and life. There are plenty of options for American males outside of the urban, leftist American female.

Sure, buy a woman from Russia. Worked for Richard Spencer. Oh, wait . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One day my secretary came to work with curly hair. I asked her if she had just got a perm, she replied no her hair is curly and so straitens it before work but today she was running late.

Another time I commented on if she changed the color of her hair, she said yes I had highlights a week ago.

She has told me before she likes a particular shirt I am wearing.

A man that works for me today asked where I got a sweater and that it looked warm.

I will say good morning to any person I walk pass unless they are looking at the ground to avoid eye contact.

I went out with a girl I sort of knew from a mutual friend. She was bored and said we should hang out, so I took her to a dive bar to play pool and have a couple drinks out in the car I reached over and kissed her. She told me afterwards it was a huge turn on that I would take control like that.

The girl I kissed I could see that as possible harassment, but I had a feeling since she asked me to hang out she was interested.

What about the other instances?

There is no need to comment on your secretary's appearance. She also does not need to comment on your appearance. It's unprofessional. The sweater thing is fine. Saying good morning is fine as long as you aren't abrasive about it.

The situation with the girl is clearly not a problem since she affirmatively told you that she liked it and had given you indications that she was interested in you.

This is really not that complicated.

That's funny. I've actually got into trouble with women at the office because I did *not* complement them on their new hair style ("You don't like my new hair??"/"You didn't say anything. Is it that bad?").

You have not "gotten into trouble." The appropriate response to those questions is, "I did notice, but I try not to comment on people's personal appearance at work. I'm sorry you felt slighted." and then move on.

The point is that some women actually appreciate and sometimes expect men to compliment them on their appearance. Yes, we can stop doing that, but it is revisionist history to claim that women have always hated this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That's funny. I've actually got into trouble with women at the office because I did *not* complement them on their new hair style ("You don't like my new hair??"/"You didn't say anything. Is it that bad?").

You have not "gotten into trouble." The appropriate response to those questions is, "I did notice, but I try not to comment on people's personal appearance at work. I'm sorry you felt slighted." and then move on.

The point is that some women actually appreciate and sometimes expect men to compliment them on their appearance. Yes, we can stop doing that, but it is revisionist history to claim that women have always hated this.

I think there was a PP that made the point that context matters. It was a different time even 30 years ago so to say “women haven’t always hated this” could depend on what else was going on at the time. Maybe they were raised to behave x way to get a husband because they wouldn’t be able to support themselves. Maybe they didn’t like it then but would get in trouble for speaking up.

I know that I would be uncomfortable if my boss was complimenting my appearance at work. I also think there is difference between saying “oh, where did you get the sweater, I want to get one for myself or to observe “wow, everyone is wearing yellow shirts today I guess I missed the memo” versus “ that sweater looks good on you” or “that green shirt brings out your eyes”. There are certain things in life that when you are in doubt, you are better to not say it. It’s like I go with, oh is that your daughter versus granddaughter when striking up a conversation with a fellow adult at Gymboree. Or I never ask a woman “are you pregnant” and let her say something about the pregnancy first ...again err on the side of caution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One day my secretary came to work with curly hair. I asked her if she had just got a perm, she replied no her hair is curly and so straitens it before work but today she was running late.

Another time I commented on if she changed the color of her hair, she said yes I had highlights a week ago.

She has told me before she likes a particular shirt I am wearing.

A man that works for me today asked where I got a sweater and that it looked warm.

I will say good morning to any person I walk pass unless they are looking at the ground to avoid eye contact.

I went out with a girl I sort of knew from a mutual friend. She was bored and said we should hang out, so I took her to a dive bar to play pool and have a couple drinks out in the car I reached over and kissed her. She told me afterwards it was a huge turn on that I would take control like that.

The girl I kissed I could see that as possible harassment, but I had a feeling since she asked me to hang out she was interested.

What about the other instances?

There is no need to comment on your secretary's appearance. She also does not need to comment on your appearance. It's unprofessional. The sweater thing is fine. Saying good morning is fine as long as you aren't abrasive about it.

The situation with the girl is clearly not a problem since she affirmatively told you that she liked it and had given you indications that she was interested in you.

This is really not that complicated.

That's funny. I've actually got into trouble with women at the office because I did *not* complement them on their new hair style ("You don't like my new hair??"/"You didn't say anything. Is it that bad?").

You have not "gotten into trouble." The appropriate response to those questions is, "I did notice, but I try not to comment on people's personal appearance at work. I'm sorry you felt slighted." and then move on.

DP -- Its feeling chilly again. when in doubt, the advice is treat people as unfeeling, non-human machines they are meant to be in this brave new world.