If you’re a two career fam

[Anonymous]

I'm 14:49 and I just saw your update. My husband was like yours and I was like you until I laid out everything I was doing alone while also doing my own rather inflexible job. That helped but in the end it was asking him whether he was going to put his job or his family first and telling him that his decision would determine the course of our marriage. He now helps equally and we have a family member who helps occasionally helps with appointments, mornings, and sometimes evenings.

[Anonymous]

Our family sounds a lot like yours. Two very inflexible, sometimes unpredictable jobs, husband comes from a very unstable environment. This is what we did… only have one kid, work only 40 hours per week when ever possible, use every minute of vacation time to spend time with said kid, and hire an amazing nanny who treats our son like her own. We also adjusted our schedules, so we don’t see him in the mornings, but we get 4-5 hours with him every afternoon/evening and we never work weekends.

[Anonymous]

Nanny covers many evenings, but I prioritize school and athletic events, and I do every morning breakfast and drop offs. I'm home 9/10 nights a week for bedtime, but nanny often does dinner and bath time. DH's schedule is all over the place so I assume nothing from him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh I wish I knew you IRL because SAME and we could totally spend a whole night chatting about this kinda thing over drinks.

Personally -
--I prioritize one of us taking kids to the doctor/dentist BUT this feels like something that could be outsourced if it works better for your family. Especially dentist, routine cleanings are very... routine. Annual doctor visit is something I'd try to have a parent attend, but if it's more than annual for some reason, sounds fine to have someone else do it.
--ABSOLUTELY do not let yourself get into having someone at every single school thing. You've got to prioritize here. I think what's hard is that when we were kids, this was like... 3 things a year. The annual play and two school concerts, the end. So it was easy for them to be must attends. Now it's like 98027349775 things, many of which are during work hours. No. Prioritize. 2-3 things per kid, outside of work hours, that are really important and both parents should attend (hint: if it's during standard work hours, it's optional for sure). 2-4 other evening things per kid, max, that one parent attends. Max one daytime activity per parent per kid per year. These are MAXIMUMS.
--I'd be fine with someone else doing the morning or evening routine. Maybe 2-4 times a week, total between the two? I'd prioritize being with my kids for dinner over getting ready in the morning.

I think where the flexibility comes in is thinking about the some total. If you rarely go to school events, someone else gets your kid dressed in the morning five days a week, someone else does school pickup and dinner and bedtime three days a week, a babysitter comes for a chunk of every Saturday, and you've never met your kid's dentist, that's a problem.

So try and move away from what's "OK" (based on what? DCUM? Please.) and towards - what you're doing now obviously isn't working. So, what's the lowest impact thing you're doing now that you could drop?

Other wider advice:
1) Lower your standards. Sheets can be washed less, house can be cleaned less, kids can do less extracurriculars, you can shower less, you can take fewer vacations. Less is more.
2) Your happiness and wellbeing is critically important, just because you, too are a human who matters, but also because if mom is miserable and in poor mental/physical health, that impacts the whole family. It's NOT selfish to focus on your needs, it's critical.
3) Both you and your spouse have inflexible jobs? Then you BOTH have to take on these burdens. Make sure you're both contributing equally. If you're not, that's the first thing I'd change. Yes, maybe having the nanny take the kid to his annual checkup is less than ideal, but you know what is ideal? Dad taking him. Just as ideal as mom.
4) Judge yourself on dad standards. Seriously. Would society call you a GREAT dad? Then you're killing it.
5) Make sure you've giving this same once over to your job. Yeah, if you're an ER doctor, your job is inflexible, no two ways about it. But lots of people are out there putting their grocery order in while listening in to calls. Be one of those people.
6) If it still isn't right, your or your husband might want to consider decreasing your hours or changing jobs. Not because you CAN'T make it work (as long as you're both working less than 45 hours or so, it's doable) but because you might not want to live like you're living. That's okay, too.
7) Get him the snip. Surprise change of life babies are a thing.

This is really well said and how my DH and I think too. I think one of the hardest things is how many daytime events there are at school now. You're right - when I was a kid it was a rarity. Now parents are CONSTANTLY invited to things (halloween party! unity assembly! field day!) that aren't even scheduled for first or last thing. DH and I don't have flexible or work from home jobs, so we generally can't make those things. My kid gets it but its definitely a bummer to her. I wish the school would stop acting like parents all have wfh jobs or that each family has a stay at home parent. I've had teachers/staff express shock that I don't work from home - which is odd since neither do they.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

Your husband needs therapy for his unstable war zone background issues. I raised a child on food stamps. She went without often, and deeply. She is 20 now and does not resent me at all for not having enough money to buy her a trip to Hawaii, to Europe, to Mexico, a car, etc. Does she wish she could go those places? Sure. But I was always there - I went to everything, I made special breakfasts on mornings when she had big tests, I showed up. Showing up counts for a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

How on earth do you get to 10 doctor and dentist appointments per year? Our two kids get their annual checkups at a single appointment with their flu shot. Plus two teeth cleanings, also at the same time. That's three appointments, and we try to book for 8 AM so we're at work shortly after. Our au pair will handle kid transport to and from so we can go back to work immediately. We haven't had a sick appointment in a couple of years, but that's mostly luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I realize this thread is likely going to deteriorate rapidly, im hoping to get a few examples from those living it and hoping those that answer don’t bother coming back to read what will likely spiral into “why did you even have kids” comments

My therapist observed I’ve really narrowly boxed myself into what makes a “good” parent and what makes a “good” professional life basically leaving no viable option to feel good about how I’m doing about both. Logically I agree, but I’m trying to turn that practically into ways I can loosen my rigid parenting definitely

So if you and your spouse both have fairly inflexible jobs, are you comfortable with:
- someone else (nanny / grandparent) - taking your kid to routine doctor and dental appts
- your kid not always having someone at every school performance
- you kid having someone else help them get ready for school or eat dinner with them on a routine basis (not everyday night but not like once a month either)

What are things you feel must be done by a parent (if anything in particular) versus a more flexible generally being there for them and spending enough time with them without rigid rules around what’s ok

I never really analyzed it like you have, but I actually think I wouldn’t really be comfortable with any of the things you mentioned, so I did flex my job - first “part-time” in Big Law and then in house.

I realize that’s not what you were asking, but I also really struggled with mommy tracking, because I would occasionally think about how great I would be at my job if I didn’t have kids or had a SAH spouse. But then I realized it wasn’t because I thought I had to go performances or and tuck them in to be a good mom that I did that, but because I wanted to.

But I was also perfectly fine with my children being in daycare ~40s a week, and missing bedtime once a week, and not making every performance or field trip.

Basically - figure out if you feel like you SHOULD (in which case get the help!) or if you WANT TO (in which case make work more flexible).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

You overestimate like I do- its normal for someone who wants to manage/control to make sure no plates fall. Less doctors appointments and more random school stuff is how I anticipate the year. I also only schedule doctors appointments outside of school or on holidays so I avoid the work-school-appt conflict. For example, Veterans Day is OB/GYN, Endo, and Dentist for me and then Dentist for my son.

I would not be able to do 1/3 of the things I do for my kid if I did not WAH with a low stakes job. And my spouse will be taking a FT in office position right as our kid is starting Kindergarten so I will be working 6-230 to make pickup and he will be gone all day because he will be doing drop off and not getting to work until 9. Add an hour commute and ETA home is 630.

He gets an interesting job because going to performances, being able to volunteer in school, walking home together from school, etc. are not priorities to him to provide to his child. He wants to provide opportunities and money. So I keep my really chill, somewhat low paying job so I can do those things and make sure he can participate in sports and activities- because who else is going to drive him to those "opportunities"?

I play tennis on weeknights 1x week, workout daily, have dinner with friends 4-6x year, take 3 day weekends solo 1x year, travel randomly for work 1-2x year but the day-to-day stability is very important to me because I did not have that as a kid. I also know my kid and he benefits from structure. We have no helpful family members (local or otherwise) and cant afford a FT nanny.

I personally dont think this sounds like a rigidity issue. It sounds like resentment because your partner has 1) an interesting job and 2) is willing to outsource parenting and 3) likely only sees his contribution as financial (?). If yes, you are building your life around your kid and your DH which is why you may feel minimized. You both should be building your life around another and your needs and your child and their needs. Kids should not always be the ones getting the short end of the stick and nor should Mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

I'm saying this kindly but your DH needs therapy both for validation that he is doing a good job doing better for his kids but also to realize that kids need parents to some extent and wives need their husbands help to some extent and everything about raising kids is not black and white. There is SUCH a wide happy world between two inflexible rigid jobs and one parent staying at home to accommodate their other parent's career.

He’s in it! Worked for years with what i think was a very ill-equipped therapist but I finally convinced him to change to someone focused on trauma and DBT. So hopefully there will be change but it’ll take time and likely be slow and bumpy so I’m taking the reality of today as what things will be at least for awhile

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

I'm the 14:56 poster, and I responded before I saw this. Okay, this is KEY info. What you have is a husband problem. A BIG one. I'm guessing there is some really patriarchal bulls*t in here, and if I were you, I'd be calling it out immediately.

It's time to sit him down for some Real Talk. Because I'm guessing he doesn't want to actually live in a world where the nanny takes the kids to every doctor and dentist appointment, the nanny is the only one there for all school performances, the nanny does the morning routine, the nanny does the dinner and you two see your kids... occasionally but pay for it all? No. What he believes is that stuff is optional for him, and that you and a nanny should split it. Because you're the mom. No.

There will be compromise, for sure. For example, feeding the kids dinner. What if you opened with "you're right. A parent does not need to feed the kids dinner every night. If we are both taking one work trip a month, and every once in a while they overlap and the nanny does dinner with the kids for two nights, that's fine. I'm also fine with grandma giving them dinner once a week so we can both work late. But children need their parents. I need you to be in charge of dinner some times, I need to be able to count on you to do that."

See what he says. If you're getting no where, take it to a marriage councilor. You're on the path to resentment here, you've got to get on the same page.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

How on earth do you get to 10 doctor and dentist appointments per year? Our two kids get their annual checkups at a single appointment with their flu shot. Plus two teeth cleanings, also at the same time. That's three appointments, and we try to book for 8 AM so we're at work shortly after. Our au pair will handle kid transport to and from so we can go back to work immediately. We haven't had a sick appointment in a couple of years, but that's mostly luck.

3 kids - so 6 dental appointments total (could hopefully stack them into one visit seeing all 3 later…don’t currently bc don’t want to entertain 1 and 3yo for 2 other kid appts), annual doctor visit for the older two and 2x doctor visit for the baby. Only oldest is in school and school has 6 performances a year (whyyyyy) so that number will grow. I also have IBD which is 4x doc visits a year for me and 2x dental. And all that’s assuming no one ever needs a sick visit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

We prioritized not having the kids out of the house alllll day. Before care/after care, etc. They need home time, play time, early bedtimes and not too early wakeup times. If that means another adult helps out with that or you and DH tradeoff that's cool. That was a big one for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

How on earth do you get to 10 doctor and dentist appointments per year? Our two kids get their annual checkups at a single appointment with their flu shot. Plus two teeth cleanings, also at the same time. That's three appointments, and we try to book for 8 AM so we're at work shortly after. Our au pair will handle kid transport to and from so we can go back to work immediately. We haven't had a sick appointment in a couple of years, but that's mostly luck.

3 kids - so 6 dental appointments total (could hopefully stack them into one visit seeing all 3 later…don’t currently bc don’t want to entertain 1 and 3yo for 2 other kid appts), annual doctor visit for the older two and 2x doctor visit for the baby. Only oldest is in school and school has 6 performances a year (whyyyyy) so that number will grow. I also have IBD which is 4x doc visits a year for me and 2x dental. And all that’s assuming no one ever needs a sick visit

Get your kids used to waiting patiently. Reading a book, playing with a special toy you bust out for just drs waiting room, etc. The 3 yr old is definitely capable. And definitely schedule your dental visit when the two older kids have theirs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

I massively empathize with you, OP. I honestly think that finding a balance you don't feel some guilt about isn't possible as a working mom, unless you are the rare person who feels no guilt about anything, and if you are, please show me your ways. I have made huge sacrifices to my professional potential to strive toward being the mom I want to be and I still don't achieve it. There is a quote that basically says, "We are the daughters of the women who told us we could be anything, and we heard 'You have to be everything.'" That is me - trying to work like my breadwinner dad and parent like my SAHM. It's exhausting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To explain a bit more - DHs job is inflexible (or at least he treats it that way and that’s not something I can change short term bc his standard is that all of this could be done by a nanny. His view is our most important thing is securing their financial future which is frustrating but he grew up in an unstable war zone where his family lost everything so there’s a lot going on there ).

So that means I need to cover all the things I put these rules on and I start doing the math and think ok at a minimum 10 doctor / dentist appts a year, and 6 school performances for my one kid in school, and being home by x time every night and never traveling so that the kids always wakes up to a parent (dh travels a lot) etc etc etc and basically box myself out of any interesting job because I’m telling myself I must do alllllll the things on the family front.

So for those that don’t feel that rigid rule, im curious what they prioritize. And for those that say all of this must be a parent, cool I’m that person currently too

How on earth do you get to 10 doctor and dentist appointments per year? Our two kids get their annual checkups at a single appointment with their flu shot. Plus two teeth cleanings, also at the same time. That's three appointments, and we try to book for 8 AM so we're at work shortly after. Our au pair will handle kid transport to and from so we can go back to work immediately. We haven't had a sick appointment in a couple of years, but that's mostly luck.

3 kids - so 6 dental appointments total (could hopefully stack them into one visit seeing all 3 later…don’t currently bc don’t want to entertain 1 and 3yo for 2 other kid appts), annual doctor visit for the older two and 2x doctor visit for the baby. Only oldest is in school and school has 6 performances a year (whyyyyy) so that number will grow. I also have IBD which is 4x doc visits a year for me and 2x dental. And all that’s assuming no one ever needs a sick visit

14:56 again.

With three kids and essentially an unhelpful spouse who takes on no (non-financial) responsibility, you have three choices:

1) Keep your career back burnered.
2) Fix your spouse problem
3) Outsource at a level that I (and many others, I think) would be uncomfortable with.

I'm sorry.

Your therapist is right that rigid thinking isn't helping you, no matter which path you choose. But this is not a problem on the fringes that can be solved by missing some of your kid's appointments and performances. It sounds like what she's really advocating for is #1 - be realistic about how much attention and energy you can spend at a job (and with your kids). Because even a flexible, non-travel job with three kids and an unhelpful spouse is going to require a lot more flexibility with your definitions of a good parent.