unfair to hold a grudge?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:10:49, did you beat your partner into submission? What in god's name do you think 15:04 was talking about?? If you had any brain cells and weren't so jaded by whatever has happened to you in your life, you'd see that 15:04 was suggesting that communication start today, tonight, in a way that will open the doors for more communication. No marriage slips into sexlessness if it's a "good" marriage, and no problematic marriage is one person's fault, it's 50-50, and your weird 75%, 25%, 5% division of blame is truly bizarre.
God, I would hate to live in your world of finger pointing and blaming and "order." You suck.

Get a grip. the wife is more to blame if the OP begged his wife for sex (which he did). People can be more to blame in the breakdown of marriages, though no one is 100% to blame. He's to blame for not standing up to her.

15:04 did not suggest counseling. She suggested some hallmark moment. Everyone here is desperate to believe that can save marriages, hence the cheerleading. Swallowing your rage for the sake of the children is what the OP has been doing all along. He should take some proactive action (therapy) so he can presumably locate his balls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:10:49, did you beat your partner into submission? What in god's name do you think 15:04 was talking about?? If you had any brain cells and weren't so jaded by whatever has happened to you in your life, you'd see that 15:04 was suggesting that communication start today, tonight, in a way that will open the doors for more communication. No marriage slips into sexlessness if it's a "good" marriage, and no problematic marriage is one person's fault, it's 50-50, and your weird 75%, 25%, 5% division of blame is truly bizarre.
God, I would hate to live in your world of finger pointing and blaming and "order." You suck.

Hate to break it to you, but sometimes marital problems are the fault of one person. This isn't T ball, where no matter what everyone is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:49, did you beat your partner into submission? What in god's name do you think 15:04 was talking about?? If you had any brain cells and weren't so jaded by whatever has happened to you in your life, you'd see that 15:04 was suggesting that communication start today, tonight, in a way that will open the doors for more communication. No marriage slips into sexlessness if it's a "good" marriage, and no problematic marriage is one person's fault, it's 50-50, and your weird 75%, 25%, 5% division of blame is truly bizarre.
God, I would hate to live in your world of finger pointing and blaming and "order." You suck.

Hate to break it to you, but sometimes marital problems are the fault of one person. This isn't T ball, where no matter what everyone is the same.

No they are not. Pretty much never. Not even big stuff. (Is the "victim" spouse an enabler? A non-communicator? Clueless to red flags? Bad at decision-making? You picked the faulty spouse to begin with remember. I could go on and on, and all of these things come with an assignment of some blame, even a small bit and therefore marital problems are never the complete fault of one person.) Sympathy for YOUR spouse.

[Anonymous]

15:04's post sounded a bit Disney to me too - cue movie music with lots of tears and heaving bosoms (at least the part about apologizing). I just can't connect to it. But I'm glad it resonated with others!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shut up 15:04. You were the sinner in your marriage and your husband sounds like a pussy. Lets see how long your perfect marriage lasts.

Look, if the OP can't forgive his wife in some Disney moment, the solution is COUNSELING. This marriage is full of unspoken crap and they need to TALK. What if his wife is genuinely unhappy having sex but is pretending because she doesn't want divorce? What if there's some medical reason that she's lost her libido? Should she lie back and think of England for the next 10 years as a good wife?

For fuck's sake, no wonder most of you people have terrible marriages. Stop believing in fairy tales and disney moments and go to counseling and communicate for the sake of your fucking children. Unspoken expectations, resentments and unilateral decisions have poisoned this marriage. His wife is 75% to blame for withholding, OP is 25% to blame for not setting a counseling ultimatum 8 years ago. Hell, 5% of that is not setting it NOW.

OP and all the other unhappy people in sexless marriages here: stop believing that there is some magical easy way to become happy again. It won't happen through some magical moment, or the perfect lingerie, or doing the dishes, or your husband getting the perfect job. It won't happen through revenge affairs. It won't happen through wearing the clock of martyrdom. It'll happen when you start acting like a full partner in your relationship, not some battered wife, and demand respect and communication from your partner.

Go to therapy yourself and then DEMAND your partner join you. Be the grown up.

This.

[Anonymous]

I am the PP who wrote about forgiveness. I did not realize my post would lead to such strong reactions.

I was not trying to write a Hallmark moment. I just wrote about my personal experience, and I was totally honest. That was some of the most hard-earned wisdom I have accumulated over the years, and I wish someone had shared similar advice with me years earlier, because it would have saved so much grief. I could have put my personal story in terms of psychology or theology, but I thought that would make it too easy for people to put it into a box with a label. I wanted it to speak for itself.

Right now, OP is stuck with a certain set of facts. The past cannot be changed. His wife wants to have a good marriage, and his kids would be better off with two parents who love each other. But OP, by his own admission, does not know what to do with these (understandable) feelings of hurt, resentment, rejection, confusion--nor has he yet figured out where things went wrong all those years ago. He wants to find a way to deal with those feelings, and to learn the truth.

His anger has him trapped. And his anger is trying to convince him to dig in, to hold on, to not let go, that forgiveness equals weakness, that justice is holding his wife accountable, making her suffer, getting her back. Where will that get him? No where good. Seriously--nothing good can come of all that.

But how to make a step away from the anger? He needs to change this paradigm of "I am good, she is bad.". Because no one is perfect. Besides how he has been in his marriage, I am sure there are times he has wronged other people. His parents, his friends, girlfriends, strangers...what if they all held him completely responsible for his shortcomings? What if everyone he has ever offended came back and demanded their pound of flesh?

And this is his wife, the mother of his children, the one person on this planet with whom he shares the most intimacy. He has established a dynamic that has her in a hopeless place. She can never change the past. She can never give him back those years. She let him down, and she cannot make up for it. That is a terrible place to be. I know. And if he wants an equal partner, in his home and in his bed, he needs to put her back in a place of honor and wholeness and reverence. How can she have confidence and sexiness and affection for him sexually if she knows he carries this low opinion of her?

So he needs to divert his focus away from her acknowledged shortcomings and seriously contemplate what HE needs forgiveness for, and once he has reconnected with her, as a fellow weak human being who has his own faults, they can reestablish trust, mutual respect, honesty, open communication, and so on. Maybe that will require an outside counselor, or maybe they can handle it themselves. I don't know.

OP, I don't know if you are even still listening, and maybe you thought I was hokey. That's fine--it takes all kinds. If you can tolerate a little more cheesiness, listen to the song "I See" by Matt Nathanson. I doubt he meant it to apply to this situation, but I think it summarizes what I am trying to say in a poetic way.

Sex is not a transaction. It is not something owed, something taken, something demanded or given. It is a union of two PERSONS, body, mind, soul. And it should be a union of EQUALS. Isn't that what you desire, OP? You don't just want a physical indulgence. You want to love and be loved in return. That is worth fighting for, worth sacrificing for, and it is not always easy. But it is worth it.

Again I wish you and your family only the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:His wife wants to have a good marriage

Sure, after a decade of alientation and a threat of divorce. Convenient timing.

Besides how he has been in his marriage, I am sure there are times he has wronged other people. His parents, his friends, girlfriends, strangers...what if they all held him completely responsible for his shortcomings? What if everyone he has ever offended came back and demanded their pound of flesh?

I'm sorry, but comparing the victim of 10 years or emotional abuse to a stranger takes offense is, well, offensive. Unlike a slighted stanger, a spouse takes vows. A spouse who deliberately rejects the affections of his/her spouse for the better part of 10 years is beneath contempt and is entitled to none of the partnership that is the foundation of a marriage.

She chose, again and again, to denigrate the marriage. She created inequality in the marriage. And he's supposed to wake her up in the middle of the night and apologize to her?

I suppose he should also apologize when she pulls a muscle from laughing at how pathetic he is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP who wrote about forgiveness. I did not realize my post would lead to such strong reactions.

I was not trying to write a Hallmark moment. I just wrote about my personal experience, and I was totally honest. That was some of the most hard-earned wisdom I have accumulated over the years, and I wish someone had shared similar advice with me years earlier, because it would have saved so much grief. I could have put my personal story in terms of psychology or theology, but I thought that would make it too easy for people to put it into a box with a label. I wanted it to speak for itself.

Right now, OP is stuck with a certain set of facts. The past cannot be changed. His wife wants to have a good marriage, and his kids would be better off with two parents who love each other. But OP, by his own admission, does not know what to do with these (understandable) feelings of hurt, resentment, rejection, confusion--nor has he yet figured out where things went wrong all those years ago. He wants to find a way to deal with those feelings, and to learn the truth.

His anger has him trapped. And his anger is trying to convince him to dig in, to hold on, to not let go, that forgiveness equals weakness, that justice is holding his wife accountable, making her suffer, getting her back. Where will that get him? No where good. Seriously--nothing good can come of all that.

But how to make a step away from the anger? He needs to change this paradigm of "I am good, she is bad.". Because no one is perfect. Besides how he has been in his marriage, I am sure there are times he has wronged other people. His parents, his friends, girlfriends, strangers...what if they all held him completely responsible for his shortcomings? What if everyone he has ever offended came back and demanded their pound of flesh?

And this is his wife, the mother of his children, the one person on this planet with whom he shares the most intimacy. He has established a dynamic that has her in a hopeless place. She can never change the past. She can never give him back those years. She let him down, and she cannot make up for it. That is a terrible place to be. I know. And if he wants an equal partner, in his home and in his bed, he needs to put her back in a place of honor and wholeness and reverence. How can she have confidence and sexiness and affection for him sexually if she knows he carries this low opinion of her?

So he needs to divert his focus away from her acknowledged shortcomings and seriously contemplate what HE needs forgiveness for, and once he has reconnected with her, as a fellow weak human being who has his own faults, they can reestablish trust, mutual respect, honesty, open communication, and so on. Maybe that will require an outside counselor, or maybe they can handle it themselves. I don't know.

OP, I don't know if you are even still listening, and maybe you thought I was hokey. That's fine--it takes all kinds. If you can tolerate a little more cheesiness, listen to the song "I See" by Matt Nathanson. I doubt he meant it to apply to this situation, but I think it summarizes what I am trying to say in a poetic way.

Sex is not a transaction. It is not something owed, something taken, something demanded or given. It is a union of two PERSONS, body, mind, soul. And it should be a union of EQUALS. Isn't that what you desire, OP? You don't just want a physical indulgence. You want to love and be loved in return. That is worth fighting for, worth sacrificing for, and it is not always easy. But it is worth it.

Again I wish you and your family only the best.

Let me just make the only decent points in your post while stripping out the soft lighting:

"OP, your bitterness and anger towards your wife is going to prevent emotional intimacy and any true reconciliation in your marriage. Whatever it takes to truly be happy in your marriage you will have to get past that."

There.

Your follow up posts are not helping. I am personally not just reacting to your post because it's overwrought. It's because it's sexist and weird.

One, no one ever responds to women complaining about husbands not doing dishes to revere and honor them because they are the "father of their children". But you clearly think this should be the case with mothers and women - women should be put on some sort of pedestal? Your language is indicative of a creepy Madonna/whore complex, which is always good for marital sex lives.

I can see why your marital sex dried up. Your husband married his perfect women, his perfect wife. You buy into this as well and need to be... revered. But you're flesh and blood like the rest of us and make mistakes. Neither of you can handle that. You withdraw and obsess about being a failure. You can't live up to the pedestal you enforce internally because *surprise* you're human. Then one day your husband wipes the slate clean. Maybe because he truly loves you and forgives you. Maybe because he *needs* you back on that pedestal. Maybe you both revised down your expectations of perfection. Maybe your new "perfect wife" identity is one who is perfectly loving to her savior of a husband. Maybe your marriage is perfect. I don't know.

Either way, OP PLEASE don't buy into this. You owe your children a healthy marriage (if it's possible to get one) but your wife isn't some sort of saint, and this is a fantasy. You are not going to be able to grant her some miracle of perfect love in order to heal all of her emotional wounds and open her heart to your perfect sexual union. Does the miracle of perfect love instantaneously heal vaginismus? Erase childhood trauma? This took years to break, so don't expect it to be fixed overnight. Give voice to your feelings and let your wife do the same. Go and do the messy work to get a real marriage, don't be tempted by this facade this poster puts up. She clearly *needs* to believe whatever she believes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP who wrote about forgiveness. I did not realize my post would lead to such strong reactions.

I was not trying to write a Hallmark moment. I just wrote about my personal experience, and I was totally honest. That was some of the most hard-earned wisdom I have accumulated over the years, and I wish someone had shared similar advice with me years earlier, because it would have saved so much grief. I could have put my personal story in terms of psychology or theology, but I thought that would make it too easy for people to put it into a box with a label. I wanted it to speak for itself.

Right now, OP is stuck with a certain set of facts. The past cannot be changed. His wife wants to have a good marriage, and his kids would be better off with two parents who love each other. But OP, by his own admission, does not know what to do with these (understandable) feelings of hurt, resentment, rejection, confusion--nor has he yet figured out where things went wrong all those years ago. He wants to find a way to deal with those feelings, and to learn the truth.

His anger has him trapped. And his anger is trying to convince him to dig in, to hold on, to not let go, that forgiveness equals weakness, that justice is holding his wife accountable, making her suffer, getting her back. Where will that get him? No where good. Seriously--nothing good can come of all that.

But how to make a step away from the anger? He needs to change this paradigm of "I am good, she is bad.". Because no one is perfect. Besides how he has been in his marriage, I am sure there are times he has wronged other people. His parents, his friends, girlfriends, strangers...what if they all held him completely responsible for his shortcomings? What if everyone he has ever offended came back and demanded their pound of flesh?

And this is his wife, the mother of his children, the one person on this planet with whom he shares the most intimacy. He has established a dynamic that has her in a hopeless place. She can never change the past. She can never give him back those years. She let him down, and she cannot make up for it. That is a terrible place to be. I know. And if he wants an equal partner, in his home and in his bed, he needs to put her back in a place of honor and wholeness and reverence. How can she have confidence and sexiness and affection for him sexually if she knows he carries this low opinion of her?

So he needs to divert his focus away from her acknowledged shortcomings and seriously contemplate what HE needs forgiveness for, and once he has reconnected with her, as a fellow weak human being who has his own faults, they can reestablish trust, mutual respect, honesty, open communication, and so on. Maybe that will require an outside counselor, or maybe they can handle it themselves. I don't know.

OP, I don't know if you are even still listening, and maybe you thought I was hokey. That's fine--it takes all kinds. If you can tolerate a little more cheesiness, listen to the song "I See" by Matt Nathanson. I doubt he meant it to apply to this situation, but I think it summarizes what I am trying to say in a poetic way.

Sex is not a transaction. It is not something owed, something taken, something demanded or given. It is a union of two PERSONS, body, mind, soul. And it should be a union of EQUALS. Isn't that what you desire, OP? You don't just want a physical indulgence. You want to love and be loved in return. That is worth fighting for, worth sacrificing for, and it is not always easy. But it is worth it.

Again I wish you and your family only the best.

Let me just make the only decent points in your post while stripping out the soft lighting:

"OP, your bitterness and anger towards your wife is going to prevent emotional intimacy and any true reconciliation in your marriage. Whatever it takes to truly be happy in your marriage you will have to get past that."

There.

Your follow up posts are not helping. I am personally not just reacting to your post because it's overwrought. It's because it's sexist and weird.

One, no one ever responds to women complaining about husbands not doing dishes to revere and honor them because they are the "father of their children". But you clearly think this should be the case with mothers and women - women should be put on some sort of pedestal? Your language is indicative of a creepy Madonna/whore complex, which is always good for marital sex lives.

I can see why your marital sex dried up. Your husband married his perfect women, his perfect wife. You buy into this as well and need to be... revered. But you're flesh and blood like the rest of us and make mistakes. Neither of you can handle that. You withdraw and obsess about being a failure. You can't live up to the pedestal you enforce internally because *surprise* you're human. Then one day your husband wipes the slate clean. Maybe because he truly loves you and forgives you. Maybe because he *needs* you back on that pedestal. Maybe you both revised down your expectations of perfection. Maybe your new "perfect wife" identity is one who is perfectly loving to her savior of a husband. Maybe your marriage is perfect. I don't know.

Either way, OP PLEASE don't buy into this. You owe your children a healthy marriage (if it's possible to get one) but your wife isn't some sort of saint, and this is a fantasy. You are not going to be able to grant her some miracle of perfect love in order to heal all of her emotional wounds and open her heart to your perfect sexual union. Does the miracle of perfect love instantaneously heal vaginismus? Erase childhood trauma? This took years to break, so don't expect it to be fixed overnight. Give voice to your feelings and let your wife do the same. Go and do the messy work to get a real marriage, don't be tempted by this facade this poster puts up. She clearly *needs* to believe whatever she believes.

PP, I said I never had the sexual problems OP has experienced. And I only posted twice. Further, my marriage's story (the details of which I did not/will not share) is not relevant whatsoever, and your speculations are both wrong and strange. Really strange.

Forgiveness, humility, respect, love...those are not fantasies, they are very real aspects of a good marriage.

No one here knows the nature of OP's interactions with his wife over the course of their marriage. But going forward? That is something OP will need to decide. I hope he is strong enough to forgive. It's so hard...but it would be good.

I've said all I could say. OP, best wishes.

[Anonymous]

PP here. Good marriages are made when both partners exhibit forgiveness, humility, respect, love. I just don't know why you keep putting this all on the OP. And I don't know why you insist on him just "forgiving" his wife and not going to counseling or even giving them room to talk.

You are like that woman (who I kind of love tbh) who insists that childbirth is orgasmic and she knows because she has 9 kids. Some people have 9 kids and enjoy every second. Some people don't enjoy it. Some people need epidurals. Some c-sections. Clearly the rebirth of your marriage was a postcard moment of orgasmic proportions but I think you have lost perspective if you think your advice is applicable to everyone. I also think that it's dangerous when there are a lot of suppressed feelings to recommend not talking. But that's just me.

I'm sure your marriage is Perfect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. Good marriages are made when both partners exhibit forgiveness, humility, respect, love. I just don't know why you keep putting this all on the OP. And I don't know why you insist on him just "forgiving" his wife and not going to counseling or even giving them room to talk.

You are like that woman (who I kind of love tbh) who insists that childbirth is orgasmic and she knows because she has 9 kids. Some people have 9 kids and enjoy every second. Some people don't enjoy it. Some people need epidurals. Some c-sections. Clearly the rebirth of your marriage was a postcard moment of orgasmic proportions but I think you have lost perspective if you think your advice is applicable to everyone. I also think that it's dangerous when there are a lot of suppressed feelings to recommend not talking. But that's just me.

I'm sure your marriage is Perfect.

PP, I think she is the poster with 9 kids. I recognize her voice (yes, I spend too much time on DCUM!).

[Anonymous]

She is also the Church Lady, leader of the Anti-Porn Brigade, of which I am a proud member. However, Dear Comrade, I must unfortunately break with you on this issue. I hope to grow enough to reach the place where I can ask my husband's forgiveness for my all too human reaction to our sexlessness.

But I cannot escape the awareness that my anger at DH stems from his fundamental selfishness. He too has refused treatment or to help meet my sexual needs in any way. He often responds hostilely if I flirt with him or mention anything sexual. I stated earlier that this thread has made me realize that I must demand his full participation in this part of our marriage and find the strength to leave him if he won't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. Good marriages are made when both partners exhibit forgiveness, humility, respect, love. I just don't know why you keep putting this all on the OP. And I don't know why you insist on him just "forgiving" his wife and not going to counseling or even giving them room to talk.

You are like that woman (who I kind of love tbh) who insists that childbirth is orgasmic and she knows because she has 9 kids. Some people have 9 kids and enjoy every second. Some people don't enjoy it. Some people need epidurals. Some c-sections. Clearly the rebirth of your marriage was a postcard moment of orgasmic proportions but I think you have lost perspective if you think your advice is applicable to everyone. I also think that it's dangerous when there are a lot of suppressed feelings to recommend not talking. But that's just me.

I'm sure your marriage is Perfect.

What "forgiveness" PP said:

"So he needs to divert his focus away from her acknowledged shortcomings and seriously contemplate what HE needs forgiveness for, and once he has reconnected with her, as a fellow weak human being who has his own faults, they can reestablish trust, mutual respect, honesty, open communication, and so on. Maybe that will require an outside counselor, or maybe they can handle it themselves. I don't know."

"Once you have that mutual forgiveness, that mutual respect, and are on the same footing, then you can revisit why things happened this way...Don't leave any stone unturned. You need to know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

How is that saying it is all on OP, or that they should not communicate, or not go to counseling? How can they forgive each other without talking? How can they find the truth about what went wrong without talking? How did you take that message away?

No one here knows how OP's sex life and lack thereof played out over the years. Was OP a generous lover? Was sex all about his needs, all the time? Who was being selfish towards whom on any given occasion? We have never heard from his wife. HE has never heard from his wife, apparently. He needs to hear from her.

That's what the PP said. You don't disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:49, did you beat your partner into submission? What in god's name do you think 15:04 was talking about?? If you had any brain cells and weren't so jaded by whatever has happened to you in your life, you'd see that 15:04 was suggesting that communication start today, tonight, in a way that will open the doors for more communication. No marriage slips into sexlessness if it's a "good" marriage, and no problematic marriage is one person's fault, it's 50-50, and your weird 75%, 25%, 5% division of blame is truly bizarre.
God, I would hate to live in your world of finger pointing and blaming and "order." You suck.

Get a grip. the wife is more to blame if the OP begged his wife for sex (which he did). People can be more to blame in the breakdown of marriages, though no one is 100% to blame. He's to blame for not standing up to her.

15:04 did not suggest counseling. She suggested some hallmark moment. Everyone here is desperate to believe that can save marriages, hence the cheerleading. Swallowing your rage for the sake of the children is what the OP has been doing all along. He should take some proactive action (therapy) so he can presumably locate his balls.

So someone has to beg for sex and you don't think he did anything to create that situation? Seriously? I don't know OP or his wife, but I guaran-damn-tee you that he fucked things up enough that she no longer felt it was worth it to show him any affection, in which case this is as much his fault as it is hers. Women don't just turn off sex for no reason. They don't. But they will absolutely turn it off for not feeling supported, loved, appreciated, etc. That's what 15:04 was talking about. Find out what your part in this is.

If it's a medical issue, then perhaps he'd be better served being compassionate and not threatening divorce, in which case this is an much his fault as it is hers. See how this works?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Imagine my situation, OP: I'm the DW, I work full time, did the bulk of childcare/household management. And I still couldn't get laid! DH didn't think he should throw me a bone more than every week or so, even with me carrying the load. I wanted the sex and intimacy as a form of relaxation and "reward" for bringing home the bacon, frying it up in a pan. If he didn't want it, we just didn't have it.

Finally, after almost 8 years of this, I told him that I wanted more sex. I told him I wasn't going to stop working or ask him to do more for the kids and the house, but that one way or another, from him, an affair or a divorce/new relationship, I was going to get more sex. We were almost 40 at the time, and that finally scared him into considering why he'd rather "relax" than have sex. He also lost 20 pounds. TBH, I know he'd still be happier with sex only 5 or 6 times a month, but we have it most months 8 or 10 times. Not perfect, but better. Some people are just lazy, even about sex.

I admire you for having the guts to stand up and tell this to a partner.