Women, cheating, and solidarity

[Anonymous]

While I totally get what you are saying OP, I don't think that the "Other Woman" feels she owes anything to her lover's wife.

Cheating in itself is a truly selfish act.

I don't see how someone involved in this type of set-up would be thinking of anyone but themselves.

[Anonymous]

I don't know who cheats more, conservatives or liberals. However, I was surprised with ultra conservative views of family coming from the self-proclaimed liberal crowd here. Honestly, I expected DCUM to be way more accepting of poly-amorous and other unorthodox life choices.

Liberals (all the way to communists) have traditionally been advocating rather promiscuous behavior. I just heard an interesting snippet on Alexandra Kollontai on NPR. You'd think progressive women of DCUM would follow suite and think some side piece for their man is NBD (as long as he brings his money home to his kids).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh please. Happiness coming from within can just as easily hold the cheated on spouse to blame. After all, they should find happiness with and not blame others, right?

Interesting. So if, say, a burglar breaks into my home and steals my silver, or my DH decides to pawn it, I should blame myself? Because happiness comes from within?

I am increasingly convinced that you are incapable of rational thought.

Classic DCUM mistake, you are addressing more than one poster who disagrees with you.

And your logic makes no sense. Inatimate objects do not participate in relationships nor are men who have affairs "stolen" with zero culpability. You are flawed.

You are really the most ludicrous person. You just said that happiness comes from within, so if someone wrongs you, it is your fault. There is no way to blame anyone who actually acts against you. That is precisely what you said. And now you are trying to claim that I think "inanimate objects" are in relationships? WHAT?

I have, however, gone beyond thinking that you are irrational. I now think you are an especially moronic troll. There is no way that a person with an IQ over 75 would not understand the original analogy.

Not PP, but when someone pretends to be this dense, it is annoying. No, it is not your fault that DH cheated. But if you refuse to deal with it and move on, then it's your fault. Well, not fault, really, more like a choice. You choose to wallow in your misery, and that's your God-given right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh please. Happiness coming from within can just as easily hold the cheated on spouse to blame. After all, they should find happiness with and not blame others, right?

Interesting. So if, say, a burglar breaks into my home and steals my silver, or my DH decides to pawn it, I should blame myself? Because happiness comes from within?

I am increasingly convinced that you are incapable of rational thought.

Classic DCUM mistake, you are addressing more than one poster who disagrees with you.

And your logic makes no sense. Inatimate objects do not participate in relationships nor are men who have affairs "stolen" with zero culpability. You are flawed.

You are really the most ludicrous person. You just said that happiness comes from within, so if someone wrongs you, it is your fault. There is no way to blame anyone who actually acts against you. That is precisely what you said. And now you are trying to claim that I think "inanimate objects" are in relationships? WHAT?

I have, however, gone beyond thinking that you are irrational. I now think you are an especially moronic troll. There is no way that a person with an IQ over 75 would not understand the original analogy.

Not PP, but when someone pretends to be this dense, it is annoying. No, it is not your fault that DH cheated. But if you refuse to deal with it and move on, then it's your fault. Well, not fault, really, more like a choice. You choose to wallow in your misery, and that's your God-given right.

Turns out you might be the dense one. The context of that quote was the discussion of whether people in happy marriages cheat. More than 50% of cheating men describe their marriages as happy. There was no discussion about the fall-out - just the cause.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Turns out you might be the dense one. The context of that quote was the discussion of whether people in happy marriages cheat. More than 50% of cheating men describe their marriages as happy. There was no discussion about the fall-out - just the cause.

NP here. I've seen that stat. The stats also say that people in the "not too happy" marriages are 3x more likely to cheat than those who are "pretty happy" or "very happy" in their marriages. And those who are "pretty happy" are still 2x more likely to cheat than those who are "very happy"

So, the more unhappy you are the more you are likely to cheat. Got it.

But ... what does "pretty happy" actually mean? It means you aren't fully miserable. Is that a glass-half-full outlook? Maybe. But to me it can be a wide wide range of things aren't going great, I'd like them to be better, I don't know how to fix them, but being married is better than having to do my own laundry.

Anecdotally, I actually think that men (and women) can ignore the problems in a marriage, they won't talk about it, they'll rug sweep it and try to deal with it without dealing with it. So they actually SAY they are happy (Food on the table! sex occasionally! love my kids! ooh, look, donuts!) (JK on the donuts), but there are still serious problems they aren't dealing with. I would have said I had a happy marriage ... but that is only because I didn't actually LOOK at what was going on. I was NOT introspective at all. Our marriage was happy. I'm sure I would have said that. But I was NOT. And, in reality, our marriage was mostly a shell of happiness. The thin candy coating was all that was left and the chocolate center had all disappeared. So we looked happy. But the substance wasn't there. And we weren't digging to discover what was actually going on.

So. Sure. Statistics say more than 50% of men who have affairs say their marriage is "pretty happy" or "very happy" but I think that is really a superficial test of what is actually going on in a marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Turns out you might be the dense one. The context of that quote was the discussion of whether people in happy marriages cheat. More than 50% of cheating men describe their marriages as happy. There was no discussion about the fall-out - just the cause.

NP here. I've seen that stat. The stats also say that people in the "not too happy" marriages are 3x more likely to cheat than those who are "pretty happy" or "very happy" in their marriages. And those who are "pretty happy" are still 2x more likely to cheat than those who are "very happy"

So, the more unhappy you are the more you are likely to cheat. Got it.

But ... what does "pretty happy" actually mean? It means you aren't fully miserable. Is that a glass-half-full outlook? Maybe. But to me it can be a wide wide range of things aren't going great, I'd like them to be better, I don't know how to fix them, but being married is better than having to do my own laundry.

Anecdotally, I actually think that men (and women) can ignore the problems in a marriage, they won't talk about it, they'll rug sweep it and try to deal with it without dealing with it. So they actually SAY they are happy (Food on the table! sex occasionally! love my kids! ooh, look, donuts!) (JK on the donuts), but there are still serious problems they aren't dealing with. I would have said I had a happy marriage ... but that is only because I didn't actually LOOK at what was going on. I was NOT introspective at all. Our marriage was happy. I'm sure I would have said that. But I was NOT. And, in reality, our marriage was mostly a shell of happiness. The thin candy coating was all that was left and the chocolate center had all disappeared. So we looked happy. But the substance wasn't there. And we weren't digging to discover what was actually going on.

So. Sure. Statistics say more than 50% of men who have affairs say their marriage is "pretty happy" or "very happy" but I think that is really a superficial test of what is actually going on in a marriage.

The study goes on though. Men that reported they were unhappy and had affairs and divorce later "admit" or "learn" that they are still unhappy, it has nothing to do with the woman they are with, they are just unhappy people. 95% of the time the AP makes them more unhappy. Of the 5% who stay with their AP, marry and divorce at the rate of 60%. Of the 2% that stay married to the an AP, 50% of them say they are unhappy but too tired and worn out to divorce. So 1% of the population, leave a marriage and report they are happier.

Yes, unhappy people who blame others for their problems are more likely to cheat. But you as a spouse can't do anything about an unhappy partner who won't get help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The study goes on though. Men that reported they were unhappy and had affairs and divorce later "admit" or "learn" that they are still unhappy, it has nothing to do with the woman they are with, they are just unhappy people. 95% of the time the AP makes them more unhappy. Of the 5% who stay with their AP, marry and divorce at the rate of 60%. Of the 2% that stay married to the an AP, 50% of them say they are unhappy but too tired and worn out to divorce. So 1% of the population, leave a marriage and report they are happier.

Yes, unhappy people who blame others for their problems are more likely to cheat. But you as a spouse can't do anything about an unhappy partner who won't get help.

I don't know what a spouse can or can't do. That isn't the question here. Nor is the future divorce rate of people who end up with their APs (which, to be honest, I think rivals your typical divorce rate of 2nd or 3rd marriages). But whether people in so-called "happy marriages" are really happy. I don't think so. Others believe they are. I think the study is flawed because of the "squishiness" (that's the technical term ) of the phrase "pretty happy."

I know that happiness is not something somebody else can give you. You have to find your own happiness, and deal with your own unhappiness. Maybe your spouse can help you. Influence you, even. But, maybe not.

Although having an affair doesn't help a marriage, it may have been the only happy thing I had at the time, but it did come at a cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh please. Happiness coming from within can just as easily hold the cheated on spouse to blame. After all, they should find happiness with and not blame others, right?

Interesting. So if, say, a burglar breaks into my home and steals my silver, or my DH decides to pawn it, I should blame myself? Because happiness comes from within?

I am increasingly convinced that you are incapable of rational thought.

Classic DCUM mistake, you are addressing more than one poster who disagrees with you.

And your logic makes no sense. Inatimate objects do not participate in relationships nor are men who have affairs "stolen" with zero culpability. You are flawed.

You are really the most ludicrous person. You just said that happiness comes from within, so if someone wrongs you, it is your fault. There is no way to blame anyone who actually acts against you. That is precisely what you said. And now you are trying to claim that I think "inanimate objects" are in relationships? WHAT?

I have, however, gone beyond thinking that you are irrational. I now think you are an especially moronic troll. There is no way that a person with an IQ over 75 would not understand the original analogy.

Not PP, but when someone pretends to be this dense, it is annoying. No, it is not your fault that DH cheated. But if you refuse to deal with it and move on, then it's your fault. Well, not fault, really, more like a choice. You choose to wallow in your misery, and that's your God-given right.

Turns out you might be the dense one. The context of that quote was the discussion of whether people in happy marriages cheat. More than 50% of cheating men describe their marriages as happy. There was no discussion about the fall-out - just the cause.

Words are not supposed to mean whatever people want them to mean in the moment. Happy is not happy in this context. These marriages are safe. Comfortable. Convenient. A pair of old house slippers you love but don't really love.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The study goes on though. Men that reported they were unhappy and had affairs and divorce later "admit" or "learn" that they are still unhappy, it has nothing to do with the woman they are with, they are just unhappy people. 95% of the time the AP makes them more unhappy. Of the 5% who stay with their AP, marry and divorce at the rate of 60%. Of the 2% that stay married to the an AP, 50% of them say they are unhappy but too tired and worn out to divorce. So 1% of the population, leave a marriage and report they are happier.

Yes, unhappy people who blame others for their problems are more likely to cheat. But you as a spouse can't do anything about an unhappy partner who won't get help.

I don't know what a spouse can or can't do. That isn't the question here. Nor is the future divorce rate of people who end up with their APs (which, to be honest, I think rivals your typical divorce rate of 2nd or 3rd marriages). But whether people in so-called "happy marriages" are really happy. I don't think so. Others believe they are. I think the study is flawed because of the "squishiness" (that's the technical term ) of the phrase "pretty happy."

I know that happiness is not something somebody else can give you. You have to find your own happiness, and deal with your own unhappiness. Maybe your spouse can help you. Influence you, even. But, maybe not.

Although having an affair doesn't help a marriage, it may have been the only happy thing I had at the time, but it did come at a cost.

An alcoholic may say the same thing. The best times were when they were drunk. It's pathetic, but soothing your ills with drugs, alcohol or an ego stroke/affair is just a temporary pain relief that usually leaves you much more unhappy when you have to wake up with yourself in the morning.

I don't really think you see that it. It has nothing to do with your marriage, it is inside you and until you fix that you will just continue to sooth your ills at the expense of others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Turns out you might be the dense one. The context of that quote was the discussion of whether people in happy marriages cheat. More than 50% of cheating men describe their marriages as happy. There was no discussion about the fall-out - just the cause.

NP here. I've seen that stat. The stats also say that people in the "not too happy" marriages are 3x more likely to cheat than those who are "pretty happy" or "very happy" in their marriages. And those who are "pretty happy" are still 2x more likely to cheat than those who are "very happy"

So, the more unhappy you are the more you are likely to cheat. Got it.

But ... what does "pretty happy" actually mean? It means you aren't fully miserable. Is that a glass-half-full outlook? Maybe. But to me it can be a wide wide range of things aren't going great, I'd like them to be better, I don't know how to fix them, but being married is better than having to do my own laundry.

Anecdotally, I actually think that men (and women) can ignore the problems in a marriage, they won't talk about it, they'll rug sweep it and try to deal with it without dealing with it. So they actually SAY they are happy (Food on the table! sex occasionally! love my kids! ooh, look, donuts!) (JK on the donuts), but there are still serious problems they aren't dealing with. I would have said I had a happy marriage ... but that is only because I didn't actually LOOK at what was going on. I was NOT introspective at all. Our marriage was happy. I'm sure I would have said that. But I was NOT. And, in reality, our marriage was mostly a shell of happiness. The thin candy coating was all that was left and the chocolate center had all disappeared. So we looked happy. But the substance wasn't there. And we weren't digging to discover what was actually going on.

So. Sure. Statistics say more than 50% of men who have affairs say their marriage is "pretty happy" or "very happy" but I think that is really a superficial test of what is actually going on in a marriage.

There are multiple studies suggesting similar findings. Not just one.

The point is that people don't look for affairs because they are unhappy with their marriages. They start affairs because of discontent with their own selves. For example, the woman who posted this week about her DH going out to bars with young women. He is at least self-aware enough to realize that he is trying to recapture his youth. That is not the same thing as being unhappily married - it is his own problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh please. Happiness coming from within can just as easily hold the cheated on spouse to blame. After all, they should find happiness with and not blame others, right?

Interesting. So if, say, a burglar breaks into my home and steals my silver, or my DH decides to pawn it, I should blame myself? Because happiness comes from within?

I am increasingly convinced that you are incapable of rational thought.

Classic DCUM mistake, you are addressing more than one poster who disagrees with you.

And your logic makes no sense. Inatimate objects do not participate in relationships nor are men who have affairs "stolen" with zero culpability. You are flawed.

You are really the most ludicrous person. You just said that happiness comes from within, so if someone wrongs you, it is your fault. There is no way to blame anyone who actually acts against you. That is precisely what you said. And now you are trying to claim that I think "inanimate objects" are in relationships? WHAT?

I have, however, gone beyond thinking that you are irrational. I now think you are an especially moronic troll. There is no way that a person with an IQ over 75 would not understand the original analogy.

I did not say that!!! You are (mis)quoting me. You are quoting TWO posters and I AM NOT the poster who said happiness comes from within.

Stop assuming you are responding to one person. Multiple people respond here.

So you are the poster who produced the word salad about inanimate objects and culpability. Well, frankly, it doesn't matter that you personally didn't initially state the part about happiness coming from within, since you explicitly inserted yourself into a thread that began with that, incorporating it by reference.

But it still takes a special kind of irrationality to think that an analogy about someone treating another person poorly is somehow a statement that about inanimate objects being in relationships. And that is not a misquote at all - you said that the analogy was flawed because "Inatimate objects do not participate in relationships." That is a direct quote, and there is no backpedaling from it. Maybe you think that it makes sense, but again, it just doesn't. And let's not even get into the next part - "men who have affairs 'stolen' with zero culpability." Whatever.

I will try to use little words that even you can understand. The first post (which you didn't have to quote but chose to) said that because happiness comes from within, we can "hold the cheated on spouse to blame." I replied with a general and quite broad analogy about people mistreating others. The idea that it was theft was just an example of a type of betrayal of one person by another. Thus, I had a second example of someone pawning your valuables. I could have said, or someone murders your dog, or deliberately breaks a family heirloom, or hits you. Choose any example you like where one person (we'll call him the bad person) does something really awful to another person (we'll call him the nice person). If you think happiness coming from within means that the bad person is not only not responsible for causing pain to the nice person, but that the blame lies with the nice person, you have the most bizarre code of ethics ever.

But how nice that there are apparently two of you on DCUM.

Do you speak to your friends and family this way? You sound like a gem. Go find another thread to belittle people on, we are attempting a conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know who cheats more, conservatives or liberals. However, I was surprised with ultra conservative views of family coming from the self-proclaimed liberal crowd here. Honestly, I expected DCUM to be way more accepting of poly-amorous and other unorthodox life choices.

Liberals (all the way to communists) have traditionally been advocating rather promiscuous behavior. I just heard an interesting snippet on Alexandra Kollontai on NPR. You'd think progressive women of DCUM would follow suite and think some side piece for their man is NBD (as long as he brings his money home to his kids).

Polyamory and cheating both involve multiple sex partners, but cheating is not polyamory. Polyamory involves the consent of all participating parties. And that means freely given informed consent, not consent given reluctantly because of the fear of economic or social consequences, etc.

Cheating is quite different from polyamory. The cheater, by definition, is getting a superficial consent to sex from one party, the victim, by receipt and fraud. The cheater continues to have sex with one partner with whom he has previously agreed to monogamy, while actively hiding the fact that he is having sex with another partner at the same time. This means that the cheater is having non-consensual sex with his victim.

Cheating is not "progressive". It is not an "unorthodox life choice". It is not progressive or liberal sexual politics in any way because by definition it involves actively deceiving someone in order to engage in sex with them. The whole arc of women's rights and sexual liberty has been to increase the degree of honesty, freedom and consent involved in sex, not to continue the old traditions of sex out of obligation or fear or due to societal pressure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know who cheats more, conservatives or liberals. However, I was surprised with ultra conservative views of family coming from the self-proclaimed liberal crowd here. Honestly, I expected DCUM to be way more accepting of poly-amorous and other unorthodox life choices.

Liberals (all the way to communists) have traditionally been advocating rather promiscuous behavior. I just heard an interesting snippet on Alexandra Kollontai on NPR. You'd think progressive women of DCUM would follow suite and think some side piece for their man is NBD (as long as he brings his money home to his kids).

Polyamory and cheating both involve multiple sex partners, but cheating is not polyamory. Polyamory involves the consent of all participating parties. And that means freely given informed consent, not consent given reluctantly because of the fear of economic or social consequences, etc.

Cheating is quite different from polyamory. The cheater, by definition, is getting a superficial consent to sex from one party, the victim, by receipt and fraud. The cheater continues to have sex with one partner with whom he has previously agreed to monogamy, while actively hiding the fact that he is having sex with another partner at the same time. This means that the cheater is having non-consensual sex with his victim.

Cheating is not "progressive". It is not an "unorthodox life choice". It is not progressive or liberal sexual politics in any way because by definition it involves actively deceiving someone in order to engage in sex with them. The whole arc of women's rights and sexual liberty has been to increase the degree of honesty, freedom and consent involved in sex, not to continue the old traditions of sex out of obligation or fear or due to societal pressure.

^damn autocorrect -- should be "deceit and fraud" not "receipt and fraud". I don't think I've ever given anyone a "receipt" for sex.

[Anonymous]

Lol ..is it a tax write off now ??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Former OW here. I never wanted him to leave his wife. I was terrified of her finding out, his kids finding out, ruining their image of him as a father. I still feel intense guilt about the fact that she doesn't know this about him. But then I think maybe it's better for her since it's over, or maybe she sort of suspected but didn't dig in to find out.

There is a special place in hell for us though, and it's right here on earth. I fell deeply in love with him, but couldn't be with him. Even if he had wanted a divorce I wouldn't have wanted him that way, his kids heartbroken, his family tirn apart.

So I'm trying to accept life the way it is, let go and move on. But don't worry about OWs feeling no pain. I guarantee you from reading other boards we are mostly a miserable, self-loathing group trying to build self-esteem without the MM.

Former OW -- even if she sort of suspected and didn't dig in -- keep in mind that he was likely gaslighting her if he didn't want her to know. I would want to know for sure. And not figuring it out might mean nothing more than that she didn't have proof of *your* existence, not that she didn't catch on to the fact that her marriage was a shitshow & her DH was lying to her.