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Anonymous wrote:Your post has several responses from people making several assumptions of facts that you have not mentioned in your post...
Not all affairs are the same... Not all people are the same. Not all marriages are the same...
My AP and I have tried to make our respective marriages "WORK" for several years before we even considered getting involved in an affair.
We have both been in a sexless and in a affectionless marriage for over 10 years.
We have both prayed for help with our marriage.
We both have kids that we love.
My AP and I have been seeing each other for over 2 years.
My AP and I have become each other's closest friend. We talk every day... several times a day. If we have news.. we usually share it with each other before anyone else.
We connect very well with each other and understand each other's strengths and weaknesses better than our respective spouses do...
We are both not naïve kids. We have tried our best to examine our affair objectively....
I do not know enough about "SoulMates" to say that my AP is my "SoulMate". I just know that my AP is my best friend and she provides the constructive support that helps me be a better person.
We do not hate our respective spouses because they are not bad people. They are just not the right spouse for us.
We want to be with each other.. but how do you efficiently end two marriages to be together while minimizing how much everyone will be hurt
Okay, serious question here. What are you waiting for? You have pretty much given up on your marriage and by having put all your emotional/sexual energy into another relationship, you are guaranteeing that you cannot improve your marriage. You seem to have no plans to end the affair and try to work on the marriage, so...what are you waiting for? what, now ,is going to minimize hurt? Are you waiting for the kids to get older? Because if you're sticking around only for that, its questionable whether that's a good idea. and if you have any shred of hope left for an amicable split and decent relationship with your kids, you should not be lying and having an affair. You s hold just get on with it. Finally, you're doing your spouse no favors by having an affair and not giving him/her the choice to leave or end the relationship. You are taking away all power from the spouse. so, who are you really protecting? only you.
the only way to 'minimize' hurt at this point is either 1) end the affair and work on your marriage or 2) end the affair, end your marriage and then do whatever the hell you want after you've been there for your family, kids, etc. But right now, you're pretty much doing everything to MAXIMIZE how much everyone will be hurt. Your family, your AP's family, etc.
I have to agree with this. If you're done with the marriage you should end it. If your wife and kids found out about the affair they would be devastated (and the kids would know, sooner or later). Possibly more hurt than by a divorce. The thing is, you don't want to hurt your family, but you already are doing that, they just don't know it yet. And even if she never finds out, how much does it hurt to be married to someone who doesn't love you? More than divorce? For kids to see their mom not loved by their dad? How much does it hurt your AP to know her best friend loves her, but not that much, not enough to change his life so that she can be part of it?
It feels noble and heals the moral trauma of an affair to say I'm staying for the kids. But consider whether the pp is right, that really you're doing what's best for you. You're not doing the right thing, you're doing the easy thing.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
As far as being a bitchy roommate, I don't want sex. I turn him down when he wants it. I am beyond terrified of getting pregnant again. I cry a lot and tell him he doesn't understand. YES, that's all I'm doing that makes him call me bitchy. Turning down sex and crying.No, it doesn't make sense.
Have you talked to your OB about birth control?
Or are you planning not to have sex again? If so, that's something you really need to discuss with your husband. I've seen too many threads about sexless marriages and they sound like hell.
The NP in his office suggested Paraguard so I can avoid the hormones, but that's not really my thing. Our plan was to use condoms but the failure rate terrifies me. DH is holding out that I'll change my mind about another baby and doesn't want to get snipped.
OP, you seem to have a lot of excuses for everything. Why you haven't gotten help for your PPD. why your husband finds you difficult. Now why you can't have sex.
If you're that scared about pregnancy, then a temporary, effective birth control option that's "not your thing" (such as an IUD) BECOMES your thing, especially since using condoms terrifies you. Or, you seek out dual contraception like diaphragm + condom so that you can feel more comfortable about risk.
If you're terrified of pregnancy, then sorry, but the onus is on you to not get pregnant. Denying your husband sex is certainly going to work to avoid pregnancy, but it's not going to do much for your marriage.
Asking your husband to get a vasectomy (a permanent option) if he does not want to is unfair, and withholding sex because of that is pathologically so. Especially since there are other options that have been offered to you, with less risk and permanency.
I think there's more to your story than you're stating here. Would love to get your husbands point of view.
Well, I would have said I have religious objections to the IUD, but I'd get flamed for that. So there. I'm too pro-life to use one. Flame away. We're seriously looking at only condoms or a diaphragm, both of which have abysmal failure rates. Yes, that scares me that much. My delivery was traumatic and I don't care to repeat it, nor can my body physically handle another delivery without good spacing. And since another pregnancy doesn't affect my husband's physical and mental well being, that's that. And I fail to see how asking him to get a vasectomy is unfair. And beyond the birth control thing, I don't have much desire to have sex with a man who calls me evil and a bitch. Yes, that flits into my brain every time he makes a move.
No, I don't have an underlying mental condition. I was fine while not on birth control, which was for most of my life - I only started it 3 months before the wedding. I was fine while not pregnant. I was fine while my hormones weren't all over the place postpartum.
I wouldn't make any decisions about permanent birth control right now. You have a three month old baby. For those of us who have been there, that says it all. Your hormones are all over the place. Your life has been upended in ways you could never have prepared for. You're probably sleep deprived. You had a traumatic delivery. Your husband is mad at you and wants a divorce. You're working and probably miss the baby while you're gone. Or you don't miss the baby and feel guilty about it. Your life is going crazy. Of course you're irritable. Of course you're tired! Sleep, which used to be such a basic, easy thing to get, is now at a premium.
Op, just know that you are not alone. Many of us have been there. Tell your husband that the way things are now is not forever. Ask for his patience with your moods, with your thoughts about future children, with your feelings about sex. Ask him to be gentle with you. Ask him to treat you as if you have cancer. He wouldn't be angry and threatening divorce then. He would understand your anger, your moods, your fatigue, your thoughts about the future.
In the meantime, seek treatment. Tell us how your appointment today goes. Keep going to therapy, I'd imagine once a week is what you need, and possibly some antidepressants. I think you have depression, which can be a lot like cancer, including being terminal. Be gentle with yourself and hang in there. It gets better, I promise.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, respectfully, even before the last outrageous story, it was clear you are avoiding the obvious. Your marriage is over. I'd give up fighting, just let your DH act out until you are prepared to pull the plug and use this time to plan your divorce, i.e. counselor, find job, see lawyer, etc.
Yes, it is hanging on its very last, thin, fraying thread. Its just very hard for me to reconcile what I will have to see my boys go through. They are always asking where he is and love spending time with him when he is home. And my husband never behaved like this up until the last year. He was an ever-attentive father and probably gave too much of himself. We are not fighting. He just says he feels numb. Feels nothing.
I guess I was just hoping it was midlife crisis crap and he would realize before its too late.
Oh Op, I just read the rest of the story. I agree, this is beyond a midlife crisis. I don't know if he's a narcissist or depressed but either way, if he doesn't see a problem and doesn't want to change there's nothing you or anyone can do to make him change.
It is really hard to let go of the dream of a happy united family. I know because I've had to do it. Unfortunately no matter how much you want your husband to be a good dad you can't force him to do it. And it's hell watching my kids grow up with an asshole dad, knowing that I tried everything to prevent this exact scenario.
But I'll tell you, it has inspired me to be a better mom. I have to be a good mom and undo the damage he does. It's not easy but it's possible. Also, I don't think kids necessarily need a male role model. I used to think that, but now I think what they need is to watch one parent deal with adversity in life and make it.
This I think is how your sons will see you. They'll be proud of their strong, resilient mom who raised them alone and worked her butt off to feed them. They'll hate their asshole dad who left her and them to fend for themselves. No, it's not the happy wholesome story we all want for our kids, but it's a story of strength and resilience. They'll know that women are strong, that women can survive without a man. They'll know what it feels like when your dad takes off for stupid reasons and they'll never do that to their kids.
And you will make it. I love that you keep saying that, it gives me hope for myself too. I read a story once of a woman in the 1960s who had been a SAHM and woke up one morning to a note from her husband saying he was leaving with his secretary and he hoped she and the kids would be okay. She found work as a real estate agent and eventually became a millionaire. She said she succeeded because she had to; she had no choice.
It does sound like a midlife crisis. Some guys buy a Porsche, some have affairs. Your husband wants to find his soulmate. I feel for you!
I totally understand the realization that life is ending, youth is ending and wanting desperately to hang on, to fulfill your dreams, to not die with regrets.
He needs to understand that walking out on his family to pursue a "soulmate" is ridiculous. Yes, there are people in life that you click with. There is instant chemistry, you feel so comfortable with them, you can tell them anything.
You do not have to marry these people. There isn't just one soulmate. All that term means is the experience of happening to meet someone who you're chemically attuned with and both of you being lonely and wanting, needing a deep connection.
As far as what you can do, I would gently, and I know you must be seething, but gently point out the consequences of his actions on his children. Twenty years from now, will he be proud of the fact that he left his kids to pursue this foolish dream? And it is foolish. What does he picture his relationship with his children being like then? Wouldn't he rather set aside the dream of a soulmate in favor of the dream of raising good and healthy men? It's a much greater gift to the world.
Also, what does he picture this soulmate being like? What would be so wonderful about this relationship? Personally I have never found a romantic love that came close to the depth of love I feel as a mother. I would cheerfully die for my children. Maybe if he could get in touch with his paternal love it would supplant the desire for a soulmate? If he's looking for a deep love, I mean.
As for his longing to travel, what if he just took a vacation abroad? Perhaps he could take a month off and go volunteer in a less developed country, or backpack around Europe.
There are ways to feel that he's living life fully without wrecking the lives of everyone around him in the process. I hope he finds them.
I totally understand the realization that life is ending, youth is ending and wanting desperately to hang on, to fulfill your dreams, to not die with regrets.
He needs to understand that walking out on his family to pursue a "soulmate" is ridiculous. Yes, there are people in life that you click with. There is instant chemistry, you feel so comfortable with them, you can tell them anything.
You do not have to marry these people. There isn't just one soulmate. All that term means is the experience of happening to meet someone who you're chemically attuned with and both of you being lonely and wanting, needing a deep connection.
As far as what you can do, I would gently, and I know you must be seething, but gently point out the consequences of his actions on his children. Twenty years from now, will he be proud of the fact that he left his kids to pursue this foolish dream? And it is foolish. What does he picture his relationship with his children being like then? Wouldn't he rather set aside the dream of a soulmate in favor of the dream of raising good and healthy men? It's a much greater gift to the world.
Also, what does he picture this soulmate being like? What would be so wonderful about this relationship? Personally I have never found a romantic love that came close to the depth of love I feel as a mother. I would cheerfully die for my children. Maybe if he could get in touch with his paternal love it would supplant the desire for a soulmate? If he's looking for a deep love, I mean.
As for his longing to travel, what if he just took a vacation abroad? Perhaps he could take a month off and go volunteer in a less developed country, or backpack around Europe.
There are ways to feel that he's living life fully without wrecking the lives of everyone around him in the process. I hope he finds them.
Anonymous wrote:My mom had an affair with a married man. He left his wife the summer after his last child graduated HS. They were carrying on for 7 years while he was married, 3 years during the separation to them getting married. They have been married for 12 years now, so together for 22. They truly are soul mates. They both just made a bad choice the first time around. They have now been together longer than the first marriage.
I know this instills much fear in women and men, but yes, some people do have love affairs.
How are his kids now after the divorce? Do they still have a good relationship with him? Do they know that it began with adultery? I'm not judging, just curious about the consequences of divorce after the kids are out of the house.
Anonymous wrote:The reason we're still married is that we believe in the vows we took, and don't believe marriage is disposable. "For better or worse" means something. Plus, we have teenagers.
I don't disagree with your desire to uphold your commitment. But I do want to point out that contracts are broken all the time. It results in a lawsuit, there's an argument, a disposition and then the matter is over. The question really is how much of your personal happiness are you willing to give up in order to stick to the terms of an agreement you made 20 years ago? I agree with the pp, that is all a therapist can help you with, figuring out how to be happy given the current state of affairs and assuming your husband will never change from his current behavior.
And I don't know what your home life is like, but if you're fighting all the time all you're teaching your teenagers is that marriage is misery and there's no way out. Sorry to sound harsh but it's true.
Anonymous wrote:Cassiopeia wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
We met via our daughters.. And she is also in a strange marriage.
Go onnnnnnnn
I would prefer not to go into detail... I feel very lucky to have had her in my life for the last 2+ years. I am a happier person.
You're also fooling yourself.
Fooling himself how? I think after two years he knows if he's really happy.
His home life seems so dismal. I honestly don't understand how guys put up with that kind of situation for the sake of their kids. I mean, are you sure it's not at least partially because you still love your wife? Are you planning to leave when the kids are grown? To me that seems so much more destructive to everyone involved. I wonder how many guys who say they'll leave when the kids are grown actually do it.
He's fooling himself about the quality of the relationship. Even after two years, it's a relationship in secret, while they each carry on their mundane day-to-day lives separately. Sure, someone can be wonderful when you only see them to relax and have sex, without any of the real-life crap that comes with that. If they were to both end the marriages to be together, there's a good chance this relationship would end up just like his marriage, and then it would be all about how she did this and she withheld that and he's a victim, because he has zero self-awareness of his role in the state of his current marriage. Any relationship can be wonderful when you're only together for the good stuff.
I see your point, and I know statistically few second marriages survive (I think the divorce rate is like 70%??). He said he thinks she never loved him, so while there's always blame to go around in relationship problems, in this situation it seems like a basic incompatibility.
I also think that if two people are deeply in love, the real-life crap doesn't matter as much. Especially if those two people spent years with an avoidant spouse who never showed any affection at all, no hugs, no kissing, let alone sexual desire. I think two people coming out of marriages like that would hang on for dear life if given the chance to be together honestly.
To me there's being "in love" where you can't get enough of someone, you love their smell, their taste, you want to know everything about them. The feeling of clicking with someone, of being instantly comfortable. This is a feeling and it's either there or it isn't. And then there's long-term love, where it's a choice, you decide to love someone because you know they're a good person, you've judged them to have a good character, they check off the boxes. I think if after two years this guy is still in love with the OW that a marriage between them would survive.
"I did everything I could to make him like me"
You shouldn't have to do anything to make someone like you. They should like you the way you are. This guy left because he didn't want a relationship with you. That's okay and not something you should feel bad about. You don't have to be everything to everyone.
Closure is being okay with this relationship ending. The fact that you felt you had to change yourself for him should make you okay with it ending. Lots of guys out there are looking for someone exactly like you, just the way you are, no "making him" necessary. You just have to find them. Focus on being yourself, authentically you, and liking that person. Then you'll be ready for another relationship. Don't look for one until you're ready.
In the meantime, give some thought to what you want in a man. Not an exhaustive white knight laundry list, but a few simple and basic qualities you would like him to have. Turn the focus back on you and what you need, rather than this guy and why he left. Ultimately you are more important.
You shouldn't have to do anything to make someone like you. They should like you the way you are. This guy left because he didn't want a relationship with you. That's okay and not something you should feel bad about. You don't have to be everything to everyone.
Closure is being okay with this relationship ending. The fact that you felt you had to change yourself for him should make you okay with it ending. Lots of guys out there are looking for someone exactly like you, just the way you are, no "making him" necessary. You just have to find them. Focus on being yourself, authentically you, and liking that person. Then you'll be ready for another relationship. Don't look for one until you're ready.
In the meantime, give some thought to what you want in a man. Not an exhaustive white knight laundry list, but a few simple and basic qualities you would like him to have. Turn the focus back on you and what you need, rather than this guy and why he left. Ultimately you are more important.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
We met via our daughters.. And she is also in a strange marriage.
Go onnnnnnnn
I would prefer not to go into detail... I feel very lucky to have had her in my life for the last 2+ years. I am a happier person.
You're also fooling yourself.
Fooling himself how? I think after two years he knows if he's really happy.
His home life seems so dismal. I honestly don't understand how guys put up with that kind of situation for the sake of their kids. I mean, are you sure it's not at least partially because you still love your wife? Are you planning to leave when the kids are grown? To me that seems so much more destructive to everyone involved. I wonder how many guys who say they'll leave when the kids are grown actually do it.
It sounds like you have this mindset that either you stay living with him or you move back in with your parents. But those are not the only two options.
How much do you make? How much can he give you in support? There are ways to live on less in this area, or there's always moving further out. Even Baltimore or nearby cities would not be that far away and have lower cost of living.
How much do you make? How much can he give you in support? There are ways to live on less in this area, or there's always moving further out. Even Baltimore or nearby cities would not be that far away and have lower cost of living.
Can those of you who have learned how to spot the bad guys post what the red flags are?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Other than the length of your relationship OP, I'm the same. Married many years, two kids under 4, coming up on the one year mark since we had sex, and frequency even before kids was never what I wanted.
It's miserable.
I love him and he's a deeply good man, but I am really missing what I think constitutes a significant part of a marriage. As it stands we're fantastic loving friends and parents. Zero passion.
You hit the nail on the head.. zero passion. Ugh
Do you think you can live with it forever?
Its so hard to see other couples we are friends with be affectionate and hear about their sex lives. I would be psyched if we did it at least once a week!
To contemplate living with (or more to the point WITHOUT) it forever is almost unbearably depressing.
But - we have young kids. And we love each other, and take care of each other and I trust him completely. So for the kids' sake I would stay with him. I expect that at some point I will have to stop trying to resurrect our sex life and just totally give up. Perhaps once I do that, mourn the loss, and find a way to still be in the marriage without being awful to him, it will get easier and by the time the kids are grown I'll be too old to care.
God that looks awful in print.
Um, what?? I am trying to understand why people stay in passionless marriages for the sake of the kids. I mean, would you want your kids to have a marriage like that? Because chances are they will one day. I think it must have something to do with family of origin. It's hard for me to imagine a relationship that is honestly good in every way except that you never have sex. I just don't see how it can really be good.
Plus, I don't think you can just acquiesce to his removing the consummate act of marriage without it breeding anger and resentment in you. It will ruin your relationship. You should definitely get in therapy. First, send him to the doctor to have his testosterone levels checked.
But don't just give up the last of your youth like that. You'll regret it when you're old.
Impactful, incentivize - not real words
Finding the sweet spot - sounds sexual, weird in a business setting
Reaching out is also right on the cusp of being overused and driving me nuts
Finding the sweet spot - sounds sexual, weird in a business setting
Reaching out is also right on the cusp of being overused and driving me nuts
Anonymous wrote:Do you think a man is more likely to leave his wife if he tells his ap that all he can think about is her and texts her whenever he is at home with his family?
No, although I do think he's more likely to get caught. I think if a man is willing to cheat the odds of him leaving his wife are very low. Why would he, you know? I think if a man wants to leave, he'll leave. But I also think most divorces are initiated by women. I think it's possible for the husband to be deeply in love with the OW and still not ever leave his wife.