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Another beautiful soul taken too soon. Regardless of her motives to be there, she didn't deserve to die the way she did. From what I read, she was a selfless, charitable soul. May God help her family go through this tragedy
To God we belong and to Him we return. This is truly a tragic story. Deah and Yusor were well liked in the community and just got married this past December. So much life taken so soon, so many hopes and dreams aborted. There are crazy lunatics everywhere these days and it is scary. May they rest in eternal peace, be forgiven for their sins and rewarded with the highest jannah!
let me go hide in my home, under house arrest
I do believe in hell and it is terrifying
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.
You do realize that Muslims believe the same about the Koran?
Here is a reference as to the Koran:
"The Quran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God, which were revealed through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad, the final prophet of Islam, more than 1400 years ago."
Why would one give greater credence to what Christians believe about the Bible versus what Muslims believe about the Koran?
Because the Bible has a risen Christ who performed miracles while on Earth, humbled Himself to die on the cross, and rose again to Life and was witnessed by hundreds of people. Anyone truly trying to come to grips with this should do some serious research on how the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament were truly written, handed down and preserved to see there's much more to it than you think. God revealed Himself, proved to those who walked with him on the Earth that Christ was God in the flesh, and was resurrected never to die again. This is a far greater witness than Muhammad. The Koran, which was written hundreds of years after the New Testament, denies Christ. The Gospels and some of the epistles of the New Testament were written by the very men who knew Christ and who witnessed his miracles, death and resurrection. They have a far, far weightier testimony.
Ok, I usually don't like to poke/talk about other people's beliefs but the first part of your post is only true if You believe in it. The Bible has a risen Christ only if you believe that, there is nothing that you can use as evidence in the bible and to discredit the Quran because it was written hundreds of years later and on the same breath accept the Bible which was not written when Jesus (a.s) was alive, and his recognition as being son of God was something that people voted on at the Council of Nicea, some 3 hundred years later, not something He said . This is only True because You believe in it, even though there are Gospels that do talk about the coming of Muhammad (saw) that Christians deny ( i-e Gospel of Barnabas .It is also a bit weird for a Christian to deny the Quran on the basis that the Qur'an came hundreds of years ago, since Christians believe in Moses and Abraham and Jesus's accounts of Moses and Abraham's life even though Jesus came hundreds of years after those 2. And finally, muslims do not Deny Jesus, we accept him as a man and a prophet, Jews would be the ones who denied him.....
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Is it something you have or don't have? If it's just something you have, why would God reward that instead of rewarding people who are good to each other?
I find it hard to believe that an infinitely advanced being judged people based on whether or not you happen to believe in him/her/it.
An infinitely advanced being is not exactly a definition of the god of the Bible that so many people believe in in some way. That God emerged thousands of years ago and was written about by pre-scientific people. Modern scholars have tried to bring him into the modern age, but it's hard when you're dealing with an antiquated book or stories and rules
I'm just saying that if there is a god, I can't see him hanging one's afterlife on whether you had faith while alive.
What do you think His purpose is, then?
OP here. Whatever his purpose, it would be terrible and petty if he created us in order to be adored by us.
Why do you say that? If you believe there is a God, then He could very well have created us for any purpose that He chose....
Yes, and it would be petty if a supreme being, capable of creating a world would create people in his image (if you believe that) to adore him.
Then you could never be a Muslim. God says: "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" (Adh-Dhariyyat 51: 56). It is our belief that God created us to worship Him, because we need to worship Him. It is something He has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. So relative to God, we were created in a means or a way in which God has chosen to manifest His attributes of creation, mercy, grace etc and He could have chosen another one. But relative to us as human beings, we know that our purpose is to worship God only. God does NOT need our worship, God didn’t need to create. When He created us to worship Him, He didn’t create us, out of a need for our worship, because God has no needs. In a famous divine Hadith God says:
"If all of you, jinn and mankind, were to worship like the most righteous amongst you, it would not increase the dominion of Allah in any way, shape or form...."
Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man. God created us to worship Him, because we need to worship Him. It is something He has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. Worship has been established, fundamentally for the growth, the spiritual growth of man. This growth takes place through the remembrance of God.
Almighty Allah says what means:
"Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great." Al-Baqarah 2:255
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Is it something you have or don't have? If it's just something you have, why would God reward that instead of rewarding people who are good to each other?
I find it hard to believe that an infinitely advanced being judged people based on whether or not you happen to believe in him/her/it.
An infinitely advanced being is not exactly a definition of the god of the Bible that so many people believe in in some way. That God emerged thousands of years ago and was written about by pre-scientific people. Modern scholars have tried to bring him into the modern age, but it's hard when you're dealing with an antiquated book or stories and rules
I'm just saying that if there is a god, I can't see him hanging one's afterlife on whether you had faith while alive.
What do you think His purpose is, then?
OP here. Whatever his purpose, it would be terrible and petty if he created us in order to be adored by us.
Why do you say that? If you believe there is a God, then He could very well have created us for any purpose that He chose....
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Is it something you have or don't have? If it's just something you have, why would God reward that instead of rewarding people who are good to each other?
I find it hard to believe that an infinitely advanced being judged people based on whether or not you happen to believe in him/her/it.
An infinitely advanced being is not exactly a definition of the god of the Bible that so many people believe in in some way. That God emerged thousands of years ago and was written about by pre-scientific people. Modern scholars have tried to bring him into the modern age, but it's hard when you're dealing with an antiquated book or stories and rules
I'm just saying that if there is a god, I can't see him hanging one's afterlife on whether you had faith while alive.
What do you think His purpose is, then?
Anonymous wrote:I feel that the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism. Shintoism etc - are more individual focussed and more spiritual. I feel that Western religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - is more society focussed and more ritualistic.
I also feel that if you truly believed in your God and His/Her omnipotence, then trying to convert people to your faith only means that you think that 1) either your God made mistakes in creating them and you have to fix that mistake or 2) your God is powerless to convert them Himself/Herself and needs minions to do it.
Not, in Islam. To the contrary, the Qu'ran is very clear that we can NOT convert people, even the Prophet (s.a.w) couldn't. We are told "And say, The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills , let him believe; and whoever wills . let him disbelieve." (Surat Al-Kahf 18:29) . All Muslims strongly believe that their duties are limited to the conveyance of the message. They also believe that embracing Islam is due to guidance, which only occurs by the grace of Allah. The Qur'an is very clear on this : "It is true you will not be able to guide everyone whom you love; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance." The prophet's closest uncle, who he loved dearly never accepted Islam, despite of how much he pleaded and begged and he was extremely saddened by this and that's when Allah revealed that verse telling him pretty much, Oh Mohamed (s.aw.), you are just a messenger, your role is to convey the message, nothing more, nothing less.
Anonymous wrote:Is it something you have or don't have? If it's just something you have, why would God reward that instead of rewarding people who are good to each other?
I find it hard to believe that an infinitely advanced being judged people based on whether or not you happen to believe in him/her/it.
In Islam, it is believed that Iman (Faith) goes up and down.Prophet Muhammad (SAW) taught us that Faith is never static, it increases and decreases, or waxes and wanes. It is our responsibility to assess where our faith is, and make it our duty to constantly work towards improving it.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.
I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.
I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.
And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.
OP here: I am fine with what you state above.
I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.
However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.
Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.
Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.
The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.
I love Jesus, son of Mary (a.s) , the man, the prophet. I also pray that one day you understand that neither Muhammad (s.a.w) nor Jesus (a.s) came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in one God, brought by earlier prophets, but rather to confirm and renew it.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.
I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.
I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.
And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.
OP here: I am fine with what you state above.
I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.
However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.
Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.
For you, not everybody else....
Anonymous wrote:I've never understood why people who believe in God believe in Him in this way: That He has no real nature and reveals Himself as a schizophrenic God who tells different people different things all over the world. If you believe in a great God who made Heaven and Earth and all that is in it, how do you also suppose that He doesn't have a knowable nature and wouldn't take steps to reveal that true nature to us? And why do so many people presume that He doesn't care how He is acknowledged, thought of and worshipped?
I am a middle-aged male named David with no kids who likes being outdoors, reading and a good steak. If you said you were my friend and insisted on calling me Steve, invited me to your basement to watch child-rearing videos, bought me a dress for Christmas, and asked me out for tofu, I would say you probably don't really know me.
Why does that not also work for God?
I don't believe that/
I think most religious people are actually very tolerant of other faiths. In my experience, I have found that fanatics and less religious people were the more intolerant towards people of other faiths. As for people changing religion,according to this Pew article, about half of Americans have changed religious affiliations at least once in their lifetime but the statistics do agree with you that most of those changes are within the same faith . http://www.pewforum.org/2009/04/27/faith-in-flux/
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:How do you think we were created? Do you believe that everything that happens is random and jut a matter of chance? And finally, how do you cope? especially when there is so much injustice done, how do you rationalize that?
OP here. I believe that human beings evolved over millions of years from less complex organisms to what we are today. I do believe a that life is very random. I work a lot with statistics and numbers so I see this often in my professional life. Maybe it's biased my personal life as well but I doubt it. I think a lot of people aren't comfortable with randomness and the idea that there is someone controlling everything and looking out for them is incredibly reassuring. Is that reality though? I would argue no, it's not.
How do I cope? Injustice, sad to say, is a part of life but so is successful, beauty, love, friendship, etc. You've got to take the good with the bad. I'm very fortunate in that I have a lot of love from family and friends that's helped me in times past when things have been hard.
Thank you OP for answering. I also love science and statistics, who knew?The problem comes when one tries to take the scientific method and apply it to things it wasn't meant for, like philosophy or religion. In Islam we accept divine revelation as a source of proof as well because we believe in the truthfulness of the Messenger (saws) to deliver the message of God.
Even if you don't believe in divine revelation, the Qur'an itself commands humans to ponder over Creation and to reflect over it, and to let that guide them to Allah. It even provides arguments against atheists. For example, in Surat Toor and other places. There is another place where Allah offers 4 possibilities for the provenance of Creation - will update the answer if I find it.
Lastly, if you apply Bayes Rule to find the probability that everything came into being just on its own and try to find the posterior probability of every single coincidence and complexity and start multiplying them together, you have a vanishing probability of everything just happening on its own. You can make it as small as you like when you keep adding events to the chain. This is a probabilistic proof so it doesn't count as an absolute proof.
"We cannot prove to an atheist the existence of Allah. In fact we cannot prove the existence of Allah to anyone. We can at most find evidence to support our claims, but in the end it comes to "belief".
An analogy occurs in mathematics, where people ask, can we prove all the correct statements? The answer is no and it is proven by Godel's incomplete theorem. That an axiomatic system capable of arithmetic is either complete or consistent. In plain words there are always statements that are true but we cannot prove. To believe in Allah is to take as an axiom the existence and uniqueness of Allah. It is the basis upon which we do rational reasoning, and we do not do reasoning on that, if you already chose your axiom. But then of course different people choose different axioms. An atheist's axioms are by definition different. Therefore the Qur'an itself is a miracle, but only if you believe so."
Now going back to the Injustice question, I guess I didn't phrase it correctly. What I wanted to know was how do you accept the inequalities, injustices in this world if you do not believe in a Higher Being? For instance, as a Muslim, I believe in Allah, and because of that belief, I also believe in divine judgment and divine justice. I believe that we will each have our day in court, where all of our deeds will be measured. Everybody will be rewarded for every atom of good and every atom of evil they have done. So when I see an evil person, who has an amazing life in spite of all the evil they ar doing, and it looks to the outside world that they are getting away with it, I am comforted in knowing that there is divine Justice and one day they will have to respond to those deeds. So, what I'm trying to understand is for someone who doesn't believe in that, how do you rationalize, explain to yourself why bad things happen to good people, and why good things happen to bad people? Do you just believe that it's still all random, and life is just unfair? Thank you
Non-OP respectful atheist here -- that's pretty much how I feel, that life is unfair, sometimes, but that part of being alive is accepting that, doing what you can to make it "fairer" and moving on.
Same here -- sometimes the society metes out justice fairly. Other times the bad guys get away and the good guys lose out. I derive no satisfaction from thinking that there is an eternal justice system in which a supernatural authority fairly settles earthly issues.
I am at the opposite end of it, that's what keeps me going. When an injustice is done to someone without any earthly recourse, I am confident knowing that there is a Higher Being and Supreme Judge who will take care of it eventually, so it doesn't bother me too much.