Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:How do you think we were created? Do you believe that everything that happens is random and jut a matter of chance? And finally, how do you cope? especially when there is so much injustice done, how do you rationalize that?

OP here. I believe that human beings evolved over millions of years from less complex organisms to what we are today. I do believe a that life is very random. I work a lot with statistics and numbers so I see this often in my professional life. Maybe it's biased my personal life as well but I doubt it. I think a lot of people aren't comfortable with randomness and the idea that there is someone controlling everything and looking out for them is incredibly reassuring. Is that reality though? I would argue no, it's not.

How do I cope? Injustice, sad to say, is a part of life but so is successful, beauty, love, friendship, etc. You've got to take the good with the bad. I'm very fortunate in that I have a lot of love from family and friends that's helped me in times past when things have been hard.

Thank you OP for answering. I also love science and statistics, who knew? The problem comes when one tries to take the scientific method and apply it to things it wasn't meant for, like philosophy or religion. In Islam we accept divine revelation as a source of proof as well because we believe in the truthfulness of the Messenger (saws) to deliver the message of God.

Even if you don't believe in divine revelation, the Qur'an itself commands humans to ponder over Creation and to reflect over it, and to let that guide them to Allah. It even provides arguments against atheists. For example, in Surat Toor and other places. There is another place where Allah offers 4 possibilities for the provenance of Creation - will update the answer if I find it.

Lastly, if you apply Bayes Rule to find the probability that everything came into being just on its own and try to find the posterior probability of every single coincidence and complexity and start multiplying them together, you have a vanishing probability of everything just happening on its own. You can make it as small as you like when you keep adding events to the chain. This is a probabilistic proof so it doesn't count as an absolute proof.

"We cannot prove to an atheist the existence of Allah. In fact we cannot prove the existence of Allah to anyone. We can at most find evidence to support our claims, but in the end it comes to "belief".

An analogy occurs in mathematics, where people ask, can we prove all the correct statements? The answer is no and it is proven by Godel's incomplete theorem. That an axiomatic system capable of arithmetic is either complete or consistent. In plain words there are always statements that are true but we cannot prove. To believe in Allah is to take as an axiom the existence and uniqueness of Allah. It is the basis upon which we do rational reasoning, and we do not do reasoning on that, if you already chose your axiom. But then of course different people choose different axioms. An atheist's axioms are by definition different. Therefore the Qur'an itself is a miracle, but only if you believe so."

Now going back to the Injustice question, I guess I didn't phrase it correctly. What I wanted to know was how do you accept the inequalities, injustices in this world if you do not believe in a Higher Being? For instance, as a Muslim, I believe in Allah, and because of that belief, I also believe in divine judgment and divine justice. I believe that we will each have our day in court, where all of our deeds will be measured. Everybody will be rewarded for every atom of good and every atom of evil they have done. So when I see an evil person, who has an amazing life in spite of all the evil they ar doing, and it looks to the outside world that they are getting away with it, I am comforted in knowing that there is divine Justice and one day they will have to respond to those deeds. So, what I'm trying to understand is for someone who doesn't believe in that, how do you rationalize, explain to yourself why bad things happen to good people, and why good things happen to bad people? Do you just believe that it's still all random, and life is just unfair? Thank you

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

I think it is similar to showing up at a gay wedding reception and just dancing and drinking the night away while denying that they are legally married and talking the other 364 days/ Year about how much homosexuality is wrong

Perfect analogy? No. But that is similar to why it feels wrong to those of us who have faith in a way

I've celebrated Christmas as a believer and a non-believer and it feels the same to me -- lots of colored lights and decorations, seasonal music and special foods, time set aside for family. I even go to midnight mass - there's something so special about going out so late at night for a once-a-year event. It didn't occur to me that people who believe that Christ was born then would resent others participating in the season, so much of which is not belief-based.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

I think it is similar to showing up at a gay wedding reception and just dancing and drinking the night away while denying that they are legally married and talking the other 364 days/ Year about how much homosexuality is wrong

Perfect analogy? No. But that is similar to why it feels wrong to those of us who have faith in a way

I've celebrated Christmas as a believer and a non-believer and it feels the same to me -- lots of colored lights and decorations, seasonal music and special foods, time set aside for family. I even go to midnight mass - there's something so special about going out so late at night for a once-a-year event. It didn't occur to me that people who believe that Christ was born then would resent others participating in the season, so much of which is not belief-based.

I don't know if resentment would be the right word, but per the example above of a gay wedding, you would be a good example of someone eating, drinking and enjoying the wedding cake, claiming "it's just dinner and a party," which would understandably not be in the spirit of the couple who were celebrating their marriage. Seems weird when you think of that way. Just something to think about

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

I think it is similar to showing up at a gay wedding reception and just dancing and drinking the night away while denying that they are legally married and talking the other 364 days/ Year about how much homosexuality is wrong

Perfect analogy? No. But that is similar to why it feels wrong to those of us who have faith in a way

I've celebrated Christmas as a believer and a non-believer and it feels the same to me -- lots of colored lights and decorations, seasonal music and special foods, time set aside for family. I even go to midnight mass - there's something so special about going out so late at night for a once-a-year event. It didn't occur to me that people who believe that Christ was born then would resent others participating in the season, so much of which is not belief-based.

I don't know if resentment would be the right word, but per the example above of a gay wedding, you would be a good example of someone eating, drinking and enjoying the wedding cake, claiming "it's just dinner and a party," which would understandably not be in the spirit of the couple who were celebrating their marriage. Seems weird when you think of that way. Just something to think about

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:How do you think we were created? Do you believe that everything that happens is random and jut a matter of chance? And finally, how do you cope? especially when there is so much injustice done, how do you rationalize that?

OP here. I believe that human beings evolved over millions of years from less complex organisms to what we are today. I do believe a that life is very random. I work a lot with statistics and numbers so I see this often in my professional life. Maybe it's biased my personal life as well but I doubt it. I think a lot of people aren't comfortable with randomness and the idea that there is someone controlling everything and looking out for them is incredibly reassuring. Is that reality though? I would argue no, it's not.

How do I cope? Injustice, sad to say, is a part of life but so is successful, beauty, love, friendship, etc. You've got to take the good with the bad. I'm very fortunate in that I have a lot of love from family and friends that's helped me in times past when things have been hard.

Thank you OP for answering. I also love science and statistics, who knew? The problem comes when one tries to take the scientific method and apply it to things it wasn't meant for, like philosophy or religion. In Islam we accept divine revelation as a source of proof as well because we believe in the truthfulness of the Messenger (saws) to deliver the message of God.

Even if you don't believe in divine revelation, the Qur'an itself commands humans to ponder over Creation and to reflect over it, and to let that guide them to Allah. It even provides arguments against atheists. For example, in Surat Toor and other places. There is another place where Allah offers 4 possibilities for the provenance of Creation - will update the answer if I find it.

Lastly, if you apply Bayes Rule to find the probability that everything came into being just on its own and try to find the posterior probability of every single coincidence and complexity and start multiplying them together, you have a vanishing probability of everything just happening on its own. You can make it as small as you like when you keep adding events to the chain. This is a probabilistic proof so it doesn't count as an absolute proof.

"We cannot prove to an atheist the existence of Allah. In fact we cannot prove the existence of Allah to anyone. We can at most find evidence to support our claims, but in the end it comes to "belief".

An analogy occurs in mathematics, where people ask, can we prove all the correct statements? The answer is no and it is proven by Godel's incomplete theorem. That an axiomatic system capable of arithmetic is either complete or consistent. In plain words there are always statements that are true but we cannot prove. To believe in Allah is to take as an axiom the existence and uniqueness of Allah. It is the basis upon which we do rational reasoning, and we do not do reasoning on that, if you already chose your axiom. But then of course different people choose different axioms. An atheist's axioms are by definition different. Therefore the Qur'an itself is a miracle, but only if you believe so."

Now going back to the Injustice question, I guess I didn't phrase it correctly. What I wanted to know was how do you accept the inequalities, injustices in this world if you do not believe in a Higher Being? For instance, as a Muslim, I believe in Allah, and because of that belief, I also believe in divine judgment and divine justice. I believe that we will each have our day in court, where all of our deeds will be measured. Everybody will be rewarded for every atom of good and every atom of evil they have done. So when I see an evil person, who has an amazing life in spite of all the evil they ar doing, and it looks to the outside world that they are getting away with it, I am comforted in knowing that there is divine Justice and one day they will have to respond to those deeds. So, what I'm trying to understand is for someone who doesn't believe in that, how do you rationalize, explain to yourself why bad things happen to good people, and why good things happen to bad people? Do you just believe that it's still all random, and life is just unfair? Thank you

Non-OP respectful atheist here -- that's pretty much how I feel, that life is unfair, sometimes, but that part of being alive is accepting that, doing what you can to make it "fairer" and moving on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:How do you think we were created? Do you believe that everything that happens is random and jut a matter of chance? And finally, how do you cope? especially when there is so much injustice done, how do you rationalize that?

OP here. I believe that human beings evolved over millions of years from less complex organisms to what we are today. I do believe a that life is very random. I work a lot with statistics and numbers so I see this often in my professional life. Maybe it's biased my personal life as well but I doubt it. I think a lot of people aren't comfortable with randomness and the idea that there is someone controlling everything and looking out for them is incredibly reassuring. Is that reality though? I would argue no, it's not.

How do I cope? Injustice, sad to say, is a part of life but so is successful, beauty, love, friendship, etc. You've got to take the good with the bad. I'm very fortunate in that I have a lot of love from family and friends that's helped me in times past when things have been hard.

Thank you OP for answering. I also love science and statistics, who knew? The problem comes when one tries to take the scientific method and apply it to things it wasn't meant for, like philosophy or religion. In Islam we accept divine revelation as a source of proof as well because we believe in the truthfulness of the Messenger (saws) to deliver the message of God.

Even if you don't believe in divine revelation, the Qur'an itself commands humans to ponder over Creation and to reflect over it, and to let that guide them to Allah. It even provides arguments against atheists. For example, in Surat Toor and other places. There is another place where Allah offers 4 possibilities for the provenance of Creation - will update the answer if I find it.

Lastly, if you apply Bayes Rule to find the probability that everything came into being just on its own and try to find the posterior probability of every single coincidence and complexity and start multiplying them together, you have a vanishing probability of everything just happening on its own. You can make it as small as you like when you keep adding events to the chain. This is a probabilistic proof so it doesn't count as an absolute proof.

"We cannot prove to an atheist the existence of Allah. In fact we cannot prove the existence of Allah to anyone. We can at most find evidence to support our claims, but in the end it comes to "belief".

An analogy occurs in mathematics, where people ask, can we prove all the correct statements? The answer is no and it is proven by Godel's incomplete theorem. That an axiomatic system capable of arithmetic is either complete or consistent. In plain words there are always statements that are true but we cannot prove. To believe in Allah is to take as an axiom the existence and uniqueness of Allah. It is the basis upon which we do rational reasoning, and we do not do reasoning on that, if you already chose your axiom. But then of course different people choose different axioms. An atheist's axioms are by definition different. Therefore the Qur'an itself is a miracle, but only if you believe so."

Now going back to the Injustice question, I guess I didn't phrase it correctly. What I wanted to know was how do you accept the inequalities, injustices in this world if you do not believe in a Higher Being? For instance, as a Muslim, I believe in Allah, and because of that belief, I also believe in divine judgment and divine justice. I believe that we will each have our day in court, where all of our deeds will be measured. Everybody will be rewarded for every atom of good and every atom of evil they have done. So when I see an evil person, who has an amazing life in spite of all the evil they ar doing, and it looks to the outside world that they are getting away with it, I am comforted in knowing that there is divine Justice and one day they will have to respond to those deeds. So, what I'm trying to understand is for someone who doesn't believe in that, how do you rationalize, explain to yourself why bad things happen to good people, and why good things happen to bad people? Do you just believe that it's still all random, and life is just unfair? Thank you

Non-OP respectful atheist here -- that's pretty much how I feel, that life is unfair, sometimes, but that part of being alive is accepting that, doing what you can to make it "fairer" and moving on.

Same here -- sometimes the society metes out justice fairly. Other times the bad guys get away and the good guys lose out. I derive no satisfaction from thinking that there is an eternal justice system in which a supernatural authority fairly settles earthly issues.

Anonymous wrote:I remember being taught that man was a reflection of god. If that's true then I think that god has a yin yang thing going on. I think god has both good and evil. That's why there's so much suffering in this world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember being taught that man was a reflection of god. If that's true then I think that god has a yin yang thing going on. I think god has both good and evil. That's why there's so much suffering in this world.

I view it differently: God is good, Devil is evil, human always have a choice between two. The suffering comes from choosing dark and evil. And when you choose God -- you just continue to count your blessings.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think the reasoning behind son's apology is different. If he apologised just to his sister, do you think he is really remorseful and never ever going to do it again? Just saying sorry doesn't mean that he is sorry for pushing a woman. Asking forgiveness from God involves processing the act and consequences inside your mind and changing your mind.

To OP: you are viewing all religions the same way (I assuming this was your quote: "What if you're wrong and the "right answer" is Islam and Jesus was just a man? Not trolling but just asking the same question of me to you."?). If you do a research, you will easily separate human created religion from the God, it is no brainer.

I also have a question for you since you said that bad things just happens. Have you not seen any connection why the bad things are happen? I know it is hard to see the connection when bad things happens to people we don't know -- like the plane crashed into the house, or the mention burned with 4 young children. But if you look at the lives of the people you know very well (or your own life) -- do you just ignore the connection or you cannot make the logical connection?

non-OP atheist here -- what is the logical connection you think is being ignored?

It is quit simple. God always gives you a choice in life, however there are consequences to every choice. At any given moment you making your choice, the consequences will come (either good or bad). So, given choices A or B, you will receive consequences C or D, with A-C or B-D (no brainer). If the consequence D is bad thing, you just say bad things just happen, right? You just don't go years back to the event B to connect it.

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it is horrific, but no one said that the religion is easy. Child's disease or death is the opportunity for a sinning parent to look back at his life, a chance to change.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it is horrific, but no one said that the religion is easy. Child's disease or death is the opportunity for a sinning parent to look back at his life, a chance to change.

That is beyond horrific. It's sick and twisted.

OP.. if you're still around..

What would you say to a young teen who absolutely does not believe, but is too.. forceful.. about it? He has been told to be respectful but the way he words things sometimes doesn't cut it.