Anonymous wrote:The New Testament does say that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light." Although I am christian I would never take this literally word for word. For one thing, this is a recollection of what Jesus said. For another it's in translation--am not sure the original would seem so dogmatic. And finally, it should not be quoted and used as though it is legislative text--Jesus was not a lawyer.

It is enough for me that Jesus said God, of whatever person, is the way, the truth, and the light.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The New Testament does say that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light." Although I am christian I would never take this literally word for word. For one thing, this is a recollection of what Jesus said. For another it's in translation--am not sure the original would seem so dogmatic. And finally, it should not be quoted and used as though it is legislative text--Jesus was not a lawyer.

It is enough for me that Jesus said God, of whatever person, is the way, the truth, and the light.

Please! I beg you! Quote this passage properly. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the LIFE." Not light. This is a big difference. Christ offers eternal life, and a redemption from spiritual death that we all face without Him. He is not merely some illuminative force.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Although I'm not the OP of the respectful atheist thread, I'm one of the atheists who joined that thread and tried to be respectful. But I have to tell you "Jesus it the TRUTH" folks that it's hard to stay respectful when hit again and again with the same dogma. My second paragraph is, I regret to say, less than respectful, so I'll omit it.

You call it dogma. Some call it fact!

Indeed. There are many things that "some" call fact. Ask ISIS or Westboro Baptist. In any case, I was just giving my reaction, as you did to me. That's cool. But there is a difference -- I call my opinions opinions.

Anonymous wrote:The New Testament does say that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light." Although I am christian I would never take this literally word for word. For one thing, this is a recollection of what Jesus said. For another it's in translation--am not sure the original would seem so dogmatic. And finally, it should not be quoted and used as though it is legislative text--Jesus was not a lawyer. It is enough for me that Jesus said God, of whatever person, is the way, the truth, and the light.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.

I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.

I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.

And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.

OP here: I am fine with what you state above.

I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.

However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.

Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.

It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

Anonymous wrote:
The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

Anonymous wrote:I've never understood why people who believe in God believe in Him in this way: That He has no real nature and reveals Himself as a schizophrenic God who tells different people different things all over the world. If you believe in a great God who made Heaven and Earth and all that is in it, how do you also suppose that He doesn't have a knowable nature and wouldn't take steps to reveal that true nature to us? And why do so many people presume that He doesn't care how He is acknowledged, thought of and worshipped?

I am a middle-aged male named David with no kids who likes being outdoors, reading and a good steak. If you said you were my friend and insisted on calling me Steve, invited me to your basement to watch child-rearing videos, bought me a dress for Christmas, and asked me out for tofu, I would say you probably don't really know me.

Why does that not also work for God?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

But why do we "have to?" It seems like it's only if we are determined that we have to believe that certain things in the bible are factual.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?