Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think it is as rare as you think that people converting to another relegation. Look at the map where Islam currently spreading that include large area of Europe and US. So place of birth is not that relevant, especially in this days of global mobility.

Islam is spreading outside of traditionally muslim countries because of emigration, not religious conversion.

And high birth numbers.

wrong. African American Muslims make up a large portion of American Muslims. Do you still consider slave descendants emigrants?
Islamic birth rates are declining or stagnating. Why do you post when you don't know what the truth is?

Anonymous wrote:I've never understood why people who believe in God believe in Him in this way: That He has no real nature and reveals Himself as a schizophrenic God who tells different people different things all over the world. If you believe in a great God who made Heaven and Earth and all that is in it, how do you also suppose that He doesn't have a knowable nature and wouldn't take steps to reveal that true nature to us? And why do so many people presume that He doesn't care how He is acknowledged, thought of and worshipped?

I am a middle-aged male named David with no kids who likes being outdoors, reading and a good steak. If you said you were my friend and insisted on calling me Steve, invited me to your basement to watch child-rearing videos, bought me a dress for Christmas, and asked me out for tofu, I would say you probably don't really know me.

Why does that not also work for God?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.

I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.

I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.

And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.

OP here: I am fine with what you state above.

I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.

However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.

I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.

I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.

And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.

OP here: I am fine with what you state above.

I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.

However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.

Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.

I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.

I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.

And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.

OP here: I am fine with what you state above.

I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.

However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.

Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.

I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.

I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.

And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.

OP here: I am fine with what you state above.

I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.

However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.

Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.

I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.

I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.

And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.

OP here: I am fine with what you state above.

I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.

However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.

Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.

It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting post, OP.

I am also a Christian, probably not as liberal in thought as you say you are.

I completely agree that many people's adult religion is an accident of/ result of their birth. In fact, just about everything in the way our lives play out is a result of our births -- the location, the timing, etc. Someone born on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2015 is going to have a completely different point of view as an adult, based on that fact alone, than some born in rural India in 1965.

And, partially for that reason, of course there should be tolerance of all faiths, assuming that they are not out to kill us all, e.g. radical Islamists. However, tolerance for another person's beliefs does not mean that I have to agree that it is "right" or even "OK." I can still tolerate and live with what this person says, but sincerely believe that they are "wrong" in their faith.

OP here: I am fine with what you state above.

I take a slightly different view in that I believe that the faith I follow is A path to God - as opposed to THE path. It is certainly the path for me but as I stated in my OP, it is because I was brought up as a Christian that has influenced my belief system - what I referred to as an accident of birth. If my parents were Muslim or Hindu or some other faith, I think it is more than likely that I would have believed my parents faith to be my path to God.

However, I don't knock anyone else for believing that their path is the only path for themselves as long as they don't try and coerce others into their faith. Of course, depending on how rigidly they hold on to that point of view, there is a risk that they could be intolerant of others and the faith they follow with all of the attendant ramifications.

Me again. The problem, if you want to call it that, for Christians, is this: Jesus Christ Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE gets to the Father, except through me." (emphasis mine). Yes, of course, if your parents had brought you up as Hindu or aetheist or Wiccan or anything else, that very well may be your life-long belief. But that still doesn't mean that it's "right," or even "right for you." To partially be able to live with this, I always fall back on Matthew 7: 7-8:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

To me this means that anyone who sincerely seeks the truth -- be it a Buddhist in Asia or a Muslim in the Middle East -- who truly and sincerely asks God to reveal Himself to them and reveal the truth -- God will do so. And the answer will always be -- guess what -- Jesus Christ.

It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Anonymous wrote:Absolutely.
And I also like to think that God has entered the lives of people of varying cultures in a variety of ways, thus the differences in religion. I like to think they are all "right" as long as they are not hateful. I believe that God is loving, but hands off most of the time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

Anonymous wrote:Although I'm not the OP of the respectful atheist thread, I'm one of the atheists who joined that thread and tried to be respectful. But I have to tell you "Jesus it the TRUTH" folks that it's hard to stay respectful when hit again and again with the same dogma. My second paragraph is, I regret to say, less than respectful, so I'll omit it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Although I'm not the OP of the respectful atheist thread, I'm one of the atheists who joined that thread and tried to be respectful. But I have to tell you "Jesus it the TRUTH" folks that it's hard to stay respectful when hit again and again with the same dogma. My second paragraph is, I regret to say, less than respectful, so I'll omit it.

You call it dogma. Some call it fact!