Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?

See, this is what is so hard to explain to non-believers (and I mean that with all respect); even our language is different! You don't discover God through Christ by "trying to believe." You don't just sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to believe. Believe. Believe. Believe! As if you are trying to talk yourself into something that doesn't make sense. A true seeker is anyone who sincerely seeks the truth (like I am, and it sounds like you may be open to) and is -- this is important -- willing to put aside his/ her personal agenda/ biases/ political convictions, whatever -- to honestly look for God and to allow Him to work in our life. (Jesus did basically say, leave it all behind and follow me.) Yes, that is a tall order, and something that I for one fail at on a regular basis.

And at that point, what do you do? You do exactly what you are doing now. You start asking questions -- lots of them, preferably to learned people who are theologically grounded in the word of God. You can read some great books -- I highly recommend C.S. Lewis, for example, and G.K. Chesterton. They are fantastic writers of the last century who not only understand this human struggle, but have a gift for putting it into words. You pray -- sincerely, often, and more than once -- asking God to reveal himself to you. You find others to associate with, preferably at a church that teaches the Bible, as Jesus preaches over and over about the need to worship God in community. This is not a journey that is meant to be taken alone! And then you pay attention and listen and open yourself to seeing things in new ways. For me, one instance that I remember clearly was when I was studying cellular biology in college. I was simply overwhelmed by seeing up close the miracle of life that God has created. It led me to a whole career of study in science and I am continually awed by it.

Oh, and perhaps most important, you read the Bible. Start with the Gospels of the New Testament. Ask God to teach you something about yourself. I predict you will be amazed!

NP here. This analysis is hilariously obtuse. You "sought the true nature of God" from a variety of ALL Christian sources and found to your great surprise that the answer was.....Jesus Christ! Shocking!

Just curious, why did you not seek the true nature of God by joining a mosque and speaking with learned Imams? Why didn't you seek the true nature of God at a synagogue? Why didn't you study and pray over the Torah? Or the Tripitaka? Did you consult a knowledgable Hindu priest in your quest for the true nature of God?

How can you possibly know that you have found "the way, the truth, and the life" when you only opened your eyes to one thing?

Not pp. How much of this footwork did you do before you settled on your own faith? And what faith is that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.

This is not quite so. If you can look at all there is and conclude there's no God, is it not because you are unwilling to admit that there is a God who holds some authority over you? And can you deny that you sin? God gives us a foothold for faith. If, as one of the PP's previously stated, you are in sincere search of truth, you won't sidestep these two points, and if you are willing to humble yourself and admit there's a God and a moral law and that you break it, you will find this faith growing. Yes, I'm going to quote the Bible again, but God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

You don't KNOW this.

If you're using the Bible as your source, it's ONE source written by men. How can you even think that God is talking directly to us?

gives grace to the humble - lol!

I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.

If you read the Bible in its entirety you will see the work of ancient people in ancient times, if you look at it in an objective scholarly fashion. If you look at it as a person of faith, you will see want you want to see.

It seems that many people confuse technological development with moral understanding. So what if people wrote things in antiquity? The Bible isn't a science textbook; it's an account of the God's revelation to mankind of Himself and His plan of redemption. This is not dependent on telescopes and microscopes, none of which get you any closer to proving God does or doesn't exist. But the Bible does convict the heart of its sinfulness, which is a timeless thing. Mankind has never outgrown its sinfulness. This is why so many people hate the Bible, because it exposes their sinfulness.

Exactly. Plenty of things written in "antiquity" still hold true today. Have you ever read Aristotle or Plato? Shakespeare? The world did not begin the day we were born, you know!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?

See, this is what is so hard to explain to non-believers (and I mean that with all respect); even our language is different! You don't discover God through Christ by "trying to believe." You don't just sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to believe. Believe. Believe. Believe! As if you are trying to talk yourself into something that doesn't make sense. A true seeker is anyone who sincerely seeks the truth (like I am, and it sounds like you may be open to) and is -- this is important -- willing to put aside his/ her personal agenda/ biases/ political convictions, whatever -- to honestly look for God and to allow Him to work in our life. (Jesus did basically say, leave it all behind and follow me.) Yes, that is a tall order, and something that I for one fail at on a regular basis.

And at that point, what do you do? You do exactly what you are doing now. You start asking questions -- lots of them, preferably to learned people who are theologically grounded in the word of God. You can read some great books -- I highly recommend C.S. Lewis, for example, and G.K. Chesterton. They are fantastic writers of the last century who not only understand this human struggle, but have a gift for putting it into words. You pray -- sincerely, often, and more than once -- asking God to reveal himself to you. You find others to associate with, preferably at a church that teaches the Bible, as Jesus preaches over and over about the need to worship God in community. This is not a journey that is meant to be taken alone! And then you pay attention and listen and open yourself to seeing things in new ways. For me, one instance that I remember clearly was when I was studying cellular biology in college. I was simply overwhelmed by seeing up close the miracle of life that God has created. It led me to a whole career of study in science and I am continually awed by it.

Oh, and perhaps most important, you read the Bible. Start with the Gospels of the New Testament. Ask God to teach you something about yourself. I predict you will be amazed!

NP here. This analysis is hilariously obtuse. You "sought the true nature of God" from a variety of ALL Christian sources and found to your great surprise that the answer was.....Jesus Christ! Shocking!

Just curious, why did you not seek the true nature of God by joining a mosque and speaking with learned Imams? Why didn't you seek the true nature of God at a synagogue? Why didn't you study and pray over the Torah? Or the Tripitaka? Did you consult a knowledgable Hindu priest in your quest for the true nature of God?

How can you possibly know that you have found "the way, the truth, and the life" when you only opened your eyes to one thing?

Not pp. How much of this footwork did you do before you settled on your own faith? And what faith is that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.

You do realize that Muslims believe the same about the Koran?

Here is a reference as to the Koran:

"The Quran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God, which were revealed through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad, the final prophet of Islam, more than 1400 years ago."

Why would one give greater credence to what Christians believe about the Bible versus what Muslims believe about the Koran?

Because the Bible has a risen Christ who performed miracles while on Earth, humbled Himself to die on the cross, and rose again to Life and was witnessed by hundreds of people. Anyone truly trying to come to grips with this should do some serious research on how the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament were truly written, handed down and preserved to see there's much more to it than you think. God revealed Himself, proved to those who walked with him on the Earth that Christ was God in the flesh, and was resurrected never to die again. This is a far greater witness than Muhammad. The Koran, which was written hundreds of years after the New Testament, denies Christ. The Gospels and some of the epistles of the New Testament were written by the very men who knew Christ and who witnessed his miracles, death and resurrection. They have a far, far weightier testimony.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?

See, this is what is so hard to explain to non-believers (and I mean that with all respect); even our language is different! You don't discover God through Christ by "trying to believe." You don't just sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to believe. Believe. Believe. Believe! As if you are trying to talk yourself into something that doesn't make sense. A true seeker is anyone who sincerely seeks the truth (like I am, and it sounds like you may be open to) and is -- this is important -- willing to put aside his/ her personal agenda/ biases/ political convictions, whatever -- to honestly look for God and to allow Him to work in our life. (Jesus did basically say, leave it all behind and follow me.) Yes, that is a tall order, and something that I for one fail at on a regular basis.

And at that point, what do you do? You do exactly what you are doing now. You start asking questions -- lots of them, preferably to learned people who are theologically grounded in the word of God. You can read some great books -- I highly recommend C.S. Lewis, for example, and G.K. Chesterton. They are fantastic writers of the last century who not only understand this human struggle, but have a gift for putting it into words. You pray -- sincerely, often, and more than once -- asking God to reveal himself to you. You find others to associate with, preferably at a church that teaches the Bible, as Jesus preaches over and over about the need to worship God in community. This is not a journey that is meant to be taken alone! And then you pay attention and listen and open yourself to seeing things in new ways. For me, one instance that I remember clearly was when I was studying cellular biology in college. I was simply overwhelmed by seeing up close the miracle of life that God has created. It led me to a whole career of study in science and I am continually awed by it.

Oh, and perhaps most important, you read the Bible. Start with the Gospels of the New Testament. Ask God to teach you something about yourself. I predict you will be amazed!

NP here. This analysis is hilariously obtuse. You "sought the true nature of God" from a variety of ALL Christian sources and found to your great surprise that the answer was.....Jesus Christ! Shocking!

Just curious, why did you not seek the true nature of God by joining a mosque and speaking with learned Imams? Why didn't you seek the true nature of God at a synagogue? Why didn't you study and pray over the Torah? Or the Tripitaka? Did you consult a knowledgable Hindu priest in your quest for the true nature of God?

How can you possibly know that you have found "the way, the truth, and the life" when you only opened your eyes to one thing?

Not pp. How much of this footwork did you do before you settled on your own faith? And what faith is that?

PP here. I NEVER SAID THAT I DIDN'T EXPLORE OTHER FAITHS BEFORE COMMITTING TO CHRISTANITY. You, in your bias, are reading that in. To tell you the complete and total story of my faith journey would add more pages to this thread than anyone would want to read. I am just hitting the highlights of how I ended up where I am today and hopefully giving guidance to others who want to be spared the extent I went to, to find the truth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.

This is not quite so. If you can look at all there is and conclude there's no God, is it not because you are unwilling to admit that there is a God who holds some authority over you? And can you deny that you sin? God gives us a foothold for faith. If, as one of the PP's previously stated, you are in sincere search of truth, you won't sidestep these two points, and if you are willing to humble yourself and admit there's a God and a moral law and that you break it, you will find this faith growing. Yes, I'm going to quote the Bible again, but God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

You don't KNOW this.

If you're using the Bible as your source, it's ONE source written by men. How can you even think that God is talking directly to us?

gives grace to the humble - lol!

I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.

If you read the Bible in its entirety you will see the work of ancient people in ancient times, if you look at it in an objective scholarly fashion. If you look at it as a person of faith, you will see want you want to see.

It seems that many people confuse technological development with moral understanding. So what if people wrote things in antiquity? The Bible isn't a science textbook; it's an account of the God's revelation to mankind of Himself and His plan of redemption. This is not dependent on telescopes and microscopes, none of which get you any closer to proving God does or doesn't exist. But the Bible does convict the heart of its sinfulness, which is a timeless thing. Mankind has never outgrown its sinfulness. This is why so many people hate the Bible, because it exposes their sinfulness.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.

This is not quite so. If you can look at all there is and conclude there's no God, is it not because you are unwilling to admit that there is a God who holds some authority over you? And can you deny that you sin? God gives us a foothold for faith. If, as one of the PP's previously stated, you are in sincere search of truth, you won't sidestep these two points, and if you are willing to humble yourself and admit there's a God and a moral law and that you break it, you will find this faith growing. Yes, I'm going to quote the Bible again, but God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

You don't KNOW this.

If you're using the Bible as your source, it's ONE source written by men. How can you even think that God is talking directly to us?

gives grace to the humble - lol!

I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.

If you read the Bible in its entirety you will see the work of ancient people in ancient times, if you look at it in an objective scholarly fashion. If you look at it as a person of faith, you will see want you want to see.

It seems that many people confuse technological development with moral understanding. So what if people wrote things in antiquity? The Bible isn't a science textbook; it's an account of the God's revelation to mankind of Himself and His plan of redemption. This is not dependent on telescopes and microscopes, none of which get you any closer to proving God does or doesn't exist. But the Bible does convict the heart of its sinfulness, which is a timeless thing. Mankind has never outgrown its sinfulness. This is why so many people hate the Bible, because it exposes their sinfulness.

Not confused at all. God, written about in antiquity, presents himself as people understood god in antiquity - unless you think god wrote the book back then and hasn't done an update and even biblical scholars don't believe that.

Also, some, but not all Christians, do use the Bible as a science book, when it suits them -- think creationism -- which some members of congress believe and use to fight the scientific concept of climate change.

I think a big difference between the Bible and other respected ancient writings (Aristotle, Aesop, etc) is that the Bible is perceived not just as a book of wisdom, but as a book of authority.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.

You do realize that Muslims believe the same about the Koran?

Here is a reference as to the Koran:

"The Quran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God, which were revealed through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad, the final prophet of Islam, more than 1400 years ago."

Why would one give greater credence to what Christians believe about the Bible versus what Muslims believe about the Koran?

Because the Bible has a risen Christ who performed miracles while on Earth, humbled Himself to die on the cross, and rose again to Life and was witnessed by hundreds of people. Anyone truly trying to come to grips with this should do some serious research on how the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament were truly written, handed down and preserved to see there's much more to it than you think. God revealed Himself, proved to those who walked with him on the Earth that Christ was God in the flesh, and was resurrected never to die again. This is a far greater witness than Muhammad. The Koran, which was written hundreds of years after the New Testament, denies Christ. The Gospels and some of the epistles of the New Testament were written by the very men who knew Christ and who witnessed his miracles, death and resurrection. They have a far, far weightier testimony.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.

This is not quite so. If you can look at all there is and conclude there's no God, is it not because you are unwilling to admit that there is a God who holds some authority over you? And can you deny that you sin? God gives us a foothold for faith. If, as one of the PP's previously stated, you are in sincere search of truth, you won't sidestep these two points, and if you are willing to humble yourself and admit there's a God and a moral law and that you break it, you will find this faith growing. Yes, I'm going to quote the Bible again, but God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

You don't KNOW this.

If you're using the Bible as your source, it's ONE source written by men. How can you even think that God is talking directly to us?

gives grace to the humble - lol!

I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.

If you read the Bible in its entirety you will see the work of ancient people in ancient times, if you look at it in an objective scholarly fashion. If you look at it as a person of faith, you will see want you want to see.

It seems that many people confuse technological development with moral understanding. So what if people wrote things in antiquity? The Bible isn't a science textbook; it's an account of the God's revelation to mankind of Himself and His plan of redemption. This is not dependent on telescopes and microscopes, none of which get you any closer to proving God does or doesn't exist. But the Bible does convict the heart of its sinfulness, which is a timeless thing. Mankind has never outgrown its sinfulness. This is why so many people hate the Bible, because it exposes their sinfulness.

Not confused at all. God, written about in antiquity, presents himself as people understood god in antiquity - unless you think god wrote the book back then and hasn't done an update and even biblical scholars don't believe that.

Also, some, but not all Christians, do use the Bible as a science book, when it suits them -- think creationism -- which some members of congress believe and use to fight the scientific concept of climate change.

I think a big difference between the Bible and other respected ancient writings (Aristotle, Aesop, etc) is that the Bible is perceived not just as a book of wisdom, but as a book of authority.

Re: your second paragraph, these particular Christians use their interpretation of the Bible as a science book, which I happen to think is wrong in the first place.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

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The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

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Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?

See, this is what is so hard to explain to non-believers (and I mean that with all respect); even our language is different! You don't discover God through Christ by "trying to believe." You don't just sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to believe. Believe. Believe. Believe! As if you are trying to talk yourself into something that doesn't make sense. A true seeker is anyone who sincerely seeks the truth (like I am, and it sounds like you may be open to) and is -- this is important -- willing to put aside his/ her personal agenda/ biases/ political convictions, whatever -- to honestly look for God and to allow Him to work in our life. (Jesus did basically say, leave it all behind and follow me.) Yes, that is a tall order, and something that I for one fail at on a regular basis.

And at that point, what do you do? You do exactly what you are doing now. You start asking questions -- lots of them, preferably to learned people who are theologically grounded in the word of God. You can read some great books -- I highly recommend C.S. Lewis, for example, and G.K. Chesterton. They are fantastic writers of the last century who not only understand this human struggle, but have a gift for putting it into words. You pray -- sincerely, often, and more than once -- asking God to reveal himself to you. You find others to associate with, preferably at a church that teaches the Bible, as Jesus preaches over and over about the need to worship God in community. This is not a journey that is meant to be taken alone! And then you pay attention and listen and open yourself to seeing things in new ways. For me, one instance that I remember clearly was when I was studying cellular biology in college. I was simply overwhelmed by seeing up close the miracle of life that God has created. It led me to a whole career of study in science and I am continually awed by it.

Oh, and perhaps most important, you read the Bible. Start with the Gospels of the New Testament. Ask God to teach you something about yourself. I predict you will be amazed!

NP here. This analysis is hilariously obtuse. You "sought the true nature of God" from a variety of ALL Christian sources and found to your great surprise that the answer was.....Jesus Christ! Shocking!

Just curious, why did you not seek the true nature of God by joining a mosque and speaking with learned Imams? Why didn't you seek the true nature of God at a synagogue? Why didn't you study and pray over the Torah? Or the Tripitaka? Did you consult a knowledgable Hindu priest in your quest for the true nature of God?

How can you possibly know that you have found "the way, the truth, and the life" when you only opened your eyes to one thing?

Not pp. How much of this footwork did you do before you settled on your own faith? And what faith is that?

PP here. I NEVER SAID THAT I DIDN'T EXPLORE OTHER FAITHS BEFORE COMMITTING TO CHRISTANITY. You, in your bias, are reading that in. To tell you the complete and total story of my faith journey would add more pages to this thread than anyone would want to read. I am just hitting the highlights of how I ended up where I am today and hopefully giving guidance to others who want to be spared the extent I went to, to find the truth.

Still, you are strongly advising others to choose Christianity based on an investigation of Christianity only.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I realize that there may be several PPs participating in this discussion, but one or more of you seem obsessed with the idea that the Bible is written by men, and therefore fallible. But I would say that this is part of the truth and uniqueness of the Judeo-Christian God -- He himself became a man, walking among us, the human race. That is God reaching out to us, interacting with us, more than we can even comprehend. Yes, the
Bible was penned by man, but it is the inspired word of God, again reaching out to us in concrete form that we can now see and touch. Do I believe that every comma, word and sentence is literally perfect and in our interpretation, completely without error? No. But the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety and when you read it that way, you will see the unfolding of your own story -- your creation, your human failings, your craving for an answer and your search for meaning, and God's repeated attempts to come to you.

You do realize that Muslims believe the same about the Koran?

Here is a reference as to the Koran:

"The Quran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God, which were revealed through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad, the final prophet of Islam, more than 1400 years ago."

Why would one give greater credence to what Christians believe about the Bible versus what Muslims believe about the Koran?

Because the Bible has a risen Christ who performed miracles while on Earth, humbled Himself to die on the cross, and rose again to Life and was witnessed by hundreds of people. Anyone truly trying to come to grips with this should do some serious research on how the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament were truly written, handed down and preserved to see there's much more to it than you think. God revealed Himself, proved to those who walked with him on the Earth that Christ was God in the flesh, and was resurrected never to die again. This is a far greater witness than Muhammad. The Koran, which was written hundreds of years after the New Testament, denies Christ. The Gospels and some of the epistles of the New Testament were written by the very men who knew Christ and who witnessed his miracles, death and resurrection. They have a far, far weightier testimony.

Muslima has addressed some of the points that I would take issue with in your response.

I'd like to add that your statement that "the gospels and some of the epistles were written by the very men who knew Christ........." is categorically incorrect. Matthew and John knew Jesus. Mark and Luke did not ....... Mark is believed to have gotten his information from Peter and Luke from Paul. Mark may have met Jesus because his mother was one of his followers.

As far as the epistles are concerned, Paul is not believed to have known Jesus well - if he knew him at all - while he was alive. His association with Jesus was after the resurrection on the road to Damascus.

With regard to Muslims and how they view Jesus ..... Muslims revere Mary and view Jesus as a major prophet. They also believe in the virgin birth but they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God.

I would suggest that based on the above, the serious research that you impliedly have conducted in reaching your beliefs may be a shade flawed.

BTW, I am not a Muslim and don't claim to be an expert on Islam but I do have Muslim friends and they have told me how Islam views Jesus and Mary.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.

And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?

But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.

------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?

No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.

So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?

See, this is what is so hard to explain to non-believers (and I mean that with all respect); even our language is different! You don't discover God through Christ by "trying to believe." You don't just sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to believe. Believe. Believe. Believe! As if you are trying to talk yourself into something that doesn't make sense. A true seeker is anyone who sincerely seeks the truth (like I am, and it sounds like you may be open to) and is -- this is important -- willing to put aside his/ her personal agenda/ biases/ political convictions, whatever -- to honestly look for God and to allow Him to work in our life. (Jesus did basically say, leave it all behind and follow me.) Yes, that is a tall order, and something that I for one fail at on a regular basis.

And at that point, what do you do? You do exactly what you are doing now. You start asking questions -- lots of them, preferably to learned people who are theologically grounded in the word of God. You can read some great books -- I highly recommend C.S. Lewis, for example, and G.K. Chesterton. They are fantastic writers of the last century who not only understand this human struggle, but have a gift for putting it into words. You pray -- sincerely, often, and more than once -- asking God to reveal himself to you. You find others to associate with, preferably at a church that teaches the Bible, as Jesus preaches over and over about the need to worship God in community. This is not a journey that is meant to be taken alone! And then you pay attention and listen and open yourself to seeing things in new ways. For me, one instance that I remember clearly was when I was studying cellular biology in college. I was simply overwhelmed by seeing up close the miracle of life that God has created. It led me to a whole career of study in science and I am continually awed by it.

Oh, and perhaps most important, you read the Bible. Start with the Gospels of the New Testament. Ask God to teach you something about yourself. I predict you will be amazed!

NP here. This analysis is hilariously obtuse. You "sought the true nature of God" from a variety of ALL Christian sources and found to your great surprise that the answer was.....Jesus Christ! Shocking!

Just curious, why did you not seek the true nature of God by joining a mosque and speaking with learned Imams? Why didn't you seek the true nature of God at a synagogue? Why didn't you study and pray over the Torah? Or the Tripitaka? Did you consult a knowledgable Hindu priest in your quest for the true nature of God?

How can you possibly know that you have found "the way, the truth, and the life" when you only opened your eyes to one thing?

Not pp. How much of this footwork did you do before you settled on your own faith? And what faith is that?

PP here. I NEVER SAID THAT I DIDN'T EXPLORE OTHER FAITHS BEFORE COMMITTING TO CHRISTANITY. You, in your bias, are reading that in. To tell you the complete and total story of my faith journey would add more pages to this thread than anyone would want to read. I am just hitting the highlights of how I ended up where I am today and hopefully giving guidance to others who want to be spared the extent I went to, to find the truth.

Still, you are strongly advising others to choose Christianity based on an investigation of Christianity only.

OK. Excuse me. As I tell my kids, go ahead... do it your way! I am still 100% confident that in the end, through as much investigation and exploration and everything else you want to do, you will end up right where I am. As noted, I condensed my entire story considerably and here was giving my end results. I can see that that paragraph would be intended for those who had reached a point of wanting to spend time in Christian conversation.

Anonymous wrote:
Apologies if I was insulting, but I am finding this conversation extremely frustrating. You are picking apart my words and twisting them to fit your own pre-determined agenda. I do not believe that you are truly "inquisitive," at least as I defne that word. I did not say that Christianity "works for me," or that it is "inevitable for all people." It is the inevitable conclusion for all people who sincerely seek the truth. Many, many people go down rabbit holes of spiritual seeking, never to arrive there, I am sorry to say. I believe that is because they refuse to get out of their own way, despite the supposed "openness" they may profess. You, my friend, are a perfect example of that.

Anonymous wrote:My only pre-determined agenda was to answer the questions and participate in this discussion, to the best of my ability. But yes, I do believe that everyone will one day be judged by God.

The question of openness and inquisitiveness and what constitutes true seeking is a good one. The most important thing -- and I think I and other participating PPs have stated this is -- you have to be willing to get out of your own way. And that is the hardest part. You have to realize that you are a sinner, broken and in need of forgiveness, redemption and salvation. For most of us, that is very, very hard to do. Some people hit rock bottom or a crisis -- they are in dept, they are drinking too much, their marriage falls apart, they get a cancer diagnosis -- whatever, and they realize they can't save themselves. Most of us -- me included for many years -- have it too perfect to notice our need for God. But as a very smart psychiatrist I know once said, there are two kinds of people in the world: Those who are broken, and know it, and act accordingly, and those who are broken but don't know it, and act accordingly. That is where the majority of us fall.

"Seeking God" or "exploring Christianity" is not something you just dabble in, like you've always been interested in golf, so you sign up for a class. If you like it, great, if you don't, you move on to tennis. I believe that is where the majority of people are when they claim to be "inquisitive." It's a great first step, but it is not the place that you need to be to find God. Nor are you truly "open" at this point. You are open to being wowed and if you are hit by a lightening bolt, you may be convinced, but that's what it is going to take. The purpose of God's redemption is not to impress you.