Is pride really worth losing your family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I find it really really weird when family cuts off other family. Invariably when I hear details, there are issues on both sides even if one person is more at fault. I hear a lot of stories of defensive language like ‘they were toxic’ ‘I need boundaries’ etc but the reality is that if the person wasn’t also contributing in some way, they wouldn’t need to be so strident and rigid. I have a family member who is likely mentally ill and has caused tons of drama, but are they cut off? No. I feel sorry for them, realize they are a highly imperfect person and I look for ways to connect that are not high conflict. If I engage with them and fight, what does that say about me? I know I can’t expect them to operate on the same emotional level as I do. And that’s ok.

They/we are connected to each other in various ways and ‘cutting them off’ would impact not only me but others. And to me, that’s selfish and unfair.

A parent telling my child they wish they never had me was the final straw

Is that good enough for you ?

One told my preteen, “I never loved your mom.” So yeah, PP will never get it. Or, she’s a narc herself.

I am not a narc but yes, your mother *said* something hurtful. I suspect she’s mentally ill/a narc and it might be compounded by aging issues. Are you so fragile that you can’t see that and rise above her and feel sorry for her? IME the people who cut off family members often do not fix their lives by doing so, they only take the extreme hypersensitivity and aggression to other relationships - you’re doing it right here in these posts with a stranger… not everyone, but many.

Whatever! She doesn’t love me, she doesn’t have to see me; no skin, right? But that also means you don’t get to influence my minor children, either. You can do or think whatever you want, it doesn’t affect me and mine.

As I suspected, the ‘protection of children’ is more about you. That’s fine, do what you want, but just eyes wide open that you are carrying forward generational trauma and rifts that may likely be carried onto generations of your family. So generations of family members - aunts, uncles, cousins, etc- may not get to know each other because of this. And if your mom died tomorrow and left $1 million dollars to a sibling instead of some to your children, you’d be okay with that? Would they? Would they as adults?

IME people like this may do hurtful or unequal things in their will as their last "gotcha." This is a terrible reason to keep someone in your life.

Maybe yes, maybe no. But you’re making decisions for your children’s relationships, their cousins, aunts, uncles etc. To me, the best lesson to children is that human relationships are challenging but usually worthwhile and it’s important to learn how to navigate them, good and bad, especially with family bc family is family. I’d prefer to model that to my children. Not ‘uncle Bob did this and that and so I’m never speaking to him again!’ which usually means they won’t either, and then suddenly you have a growing circle of rifts that’s passed down. How tragic. Those bonds they will miss out on can never be repaired.

You can disengage from the negatives if they’re not fixable, and take only the good parts bc invariably there are some. I cannot imagine cutting off ALL contact for my kids with their grandparents bc my elderly mother said something hurtful about me. I think people like this assume intact families are all perfect, or alternatively that we are all just secretly hiding major abuse, but the reality is typically somewhere in the middle.

That's just your experience and it's good to point out. But I have a parent who is estranged from the whole family except me. I don't want talk to them either, but I agree cutting people out isn't a great signal to kids. But my kids mostly miss out on relationships with other family bc we have to try and keep up with everyone separately, and that's hard. Some people have difficult relatives, but some of us have truly truly terrible relatives. It's not as easy as trying to keep the peace. And everyone has their own set of circumstances. Cutting people off is usually never about one remark, but there's always a last straw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:That is how some parents are. She doesn’t think parents apologize. In her mind, she’s thinking just what you are - why is my son so stubborn that he can’t just get over this? Gosh, he’s so sensitive and he and his wife make a big deal about everything. I can’t believe he’s willing to lose his mother over this.

Not agreeing with her! But this is what she’s thinking. My mother is similar and this is exactly what she thinks.

OP’s MIL FAFO’d! It’s funny, but I’ll be here long after DH’s 70+ mother will. It makes me think of Taylor Swift’s Father Figure: “You made a deal with this devil, turns out my d***’s bigger!”

This is such a weird response to me. Estrangement is sad. It’s sad that some people treat other family abusively and are unwilling/unable to stop. It’s sad that some people jump to estrangement over things that are manageable. Sometimes it’s necessary but you can’t really claim the high ground when you’re making gross statements like this.

You have quite a narrow mind or you just believe platitudes over reality. Estrangement is sad for some but not sad for many other others. It’s OK that you feel sad but what you feel is not what everyone feels. Your perspective is similar to the one how a woman can’t be truly fulfilled without children. Too many people just accepted the platitude that not having kids is sad. It’s not! Many people are childless by choice and have very happy fulfilled lives. I’m sure you are shaking your head assuming it’s sad because you can only imagine within your own little bubble of constraint!,

DP. To never experience any sadness over an estrangement, sad about not having the relationships you hoped for, seems narcissistic to me. Which is what we’re talking about here.

Your example about having kids isn’t remotely similar. It doesn’t end a relationship. I wouldn’t ever presume that someone went through a grief period when deciding about kids because I have a lot of childfree friends. We also have estrangement on both sides of our family.

[Anonymous]

In my opinion, nothing is worth losing your family over, but I have a good enough relationship with all of my family members that it's easy to take that position. If a family member caused me suffering, I would likely take a different position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, nothing is worth losing your family over, but I have a good enough relationship with all of my family members that it's easy to take that position. If a family member caused me suffering, I would likely take a different position.

Physical, sexual, and emotional abuse are ok with you? Alcoholism, drug addiction, financial abuse? Those are cool for you and your children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it really really weird when family cuts off other family. Invariably when I hear details, there are issues on both sides even if one person is more at fault. I hear a lot of stories of defensive language like ‘they were toxic’ ‘I need boundaries’ etc but the reality is that if the person wasn’t also contributing in some way, they wouldn’t need to be so strident and rigid. I have a family member who is likely mentally ill and has caused tons of drama, but are they cut off? No. I feel sorry for them, realize they are a highly imperfect person and I look for ways to connect that are not high conflict. If I engage with them and fight, what does that say about me? I know I can’t expect them to operate on the same emotional level as I do. And that’s ok.

They/we are connected to each other in various ways and ‘cutting them off’ would impact not only me but others. And to me, that’s selfish and unfair.

This is a recipe for unfettered abusive behavior. Mentally ill or not, all of us should be in control of what we say and do and if not, then it's time for inpatient mental hospital. These people who have unpleasant relationships with their adult kids and their spouses somehow still manage to keep employment, friendships, and other social obligations. Meaning, they behave as you let them. There is no need to let someone to run amok just because they're your parent or IL. And unfortunately it's not always possible to keep up a relationship even if you actively try to avoid fighting, because they other person doesn't let it go. As the saying goes, don't fight with a pig in deep s*t: you'll both be covered in it, but only the pig will enjoy it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it really really weird when family cuts off other family. Invariably when I hear details, there are issues on both sides even if one person is more at fault. I hear a lot of stories of defensive language like ‘they were toxic’ ‘I need boundaries’ etc but the reality is that if the person wasn’t also contributing in some way, they wouldn’t need to be so strident and rigid. I have a family member who is likely mentally ill and has caused tons of drama, but are they cut off? No. I feel sorry for them, realize they are a highly imperfect person and I look for ways to connect that are not high conflict. If I engage with them and fight, what does that say about me? I know I can’t expect them to operate on the same emotional level as I do. And that’s ok.

They/we are connected to each other in various ways and ‘cutting them off’ would impact not only me but others. And to me, that’s selfish and unfair.

A parent telling my child they wish they never had me was the final straw

Is that good enough for you ?

One told my preteen, “I never loved your mom.” So yeah, PP will never get it. Or, she’s a narc herself.

I am not a narc but yes, your mother *said* something hurtful. I suspect she’s mentally ill/a narc and it might be compounded by aging issues. Are you so fragile that you can’t see that and rise above her and feel sorry for her? IME the people who cut off family members often do not fix their lives by doing so, they only take the extreme hypersensitivity and aggression to other relationships - you’re doing it right here in these posts with a stranger… not everyone, but many.

Haha, wrong. You have no idea how much peace one gets after cutting off drama-causing family members. I just recently realized I didn't even think of them. Before I'd jump every time my phone pinged. Nope, not sorry for the family member, all her own doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She hasn’t because she loves herself more than her grandkids. And the “cost” of being in their lives is too high for her. She sounds mentally ill, so at some point there is no logic to it.

That seems right.

Counter-example: DH had a talk with a family member who pulled something on our young child that was remeniscent of some unhealthy/abusive ideas that person had about parenting (think emotional manipulation, using love as a means of control). Bright line drawn. Unlike OP's MIL, this person wanted to be in our lives and had enough emotional maturity to listen to him about what was unacceptable about what happened, and the relative appologized, started to read up on child development, and has been an amazing part of the child's life ever since.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it really really weird when family cuts off other family. Invariably when I hear details, there are issues on both sides even if one person is more at fault. I hear a lot of stories of defensive language like ‘they were toxic’ ‘I need boundaries’ etc but the reality is that if the person wasn’t also contributing in some way, they wouldn’t need to be so strident and rigid. I have a family member who is likely mentally ill and has caused tons of drama, but are they cut off? No. I feel sorry for them, realize they are a highly imperfect person and I look for ways to connect that are not high conflict. If I engage with them and fight, what does that say about me? I know I can’t expect them to operate on the same emotional level as I do. And that’s ok.

They/we are connected to each other in various ways and ‘cutting them off’ would impact not only me but others. And to me, that’s selfish and unfair.

A parent telling my child they wish they never had me was the final straw

Is that good enough for you ?

One told my preteen, “I never loved your mom.” So yeah, PP will never get it. Or, she’s a narc herself.

I am not a narc but yes, your mother *said* something hurtful. I suspect she’s mentally ill/a narc and it might be compounded by aging issues. Are you so fragile that you can’t see that and rise above her and feel sorry for her? IME the people who cut off family members often do not fix their lives by doing so, they only take the extreme hypersensitivity and aggression to other relationships - you’re doing it right here in these posts with a stranger… not everyone, but many.

Whatever! She doesn’t love me, she doesn’t have to see me; no skin, right? But that also means you don’t get to influence my minor children, either. You can do or think whatever you want, it doesn’t affect me and mine.

As I suspected, the ‘protection of children’ is more about you. That’s fine, do what you want, but just eyes wide open that you are carrying forward generational trauma and rifts that may likely be carried onto generations of your family. So generations of family members - aunts, uncles, cousins, etc- may not get to know each other because of this. And if your mom died tomorrow and left $1 million dollars to a sibling instead of some to your children, you’d be okay with that? Would they? Would they as adults?

IME people like this may do hurtful or unequal things in their will as their last "gotcha." This is a terrible reason to keep someone in your life.

Maybe yes, maybe no. But you’re making decisions for your children’s relationships, their cousins, aunts, uncles etc. To me, the best lesson to children is that human relationships are challenging but usually worthwhile and it’s important to learn how to navigate them, good and bad, especially with family bc family is family. I’d prefer to model that to my children. Not ‘uncle Bob did this and that and so I’m never speaking to him again!’ which usually means they won’t either, and then suddenly you have a growing circle of rifts that’s passed down. How tragic. Those bonds they will miss out on can never be repaired.

You can disengage from the negatives if they’re not fixable, and take only the good parts bc invariably there are some. I cannot imagine cutting off ALL contact for my kids with their grandparents bc my elderly mother said something hurtful about me. I think people like this assume intact families are all perfect, or alternatively that we are all just secretly hiding major abuse, but the reality is typically somewhere in the middle.

That's just your experience and it's good to point out. But I have a parent who is estranged from the whole family except me. I don't want talk to them either, but I agree cutting people out isn't a great signal to kids. But my kids mostly miss out on relationships with other family bc we have to try and keep up with everyone separately, and that's hard. Some people have difficult relatives, but some of us have truly truly terrible relatives. It's not as easy as trying to keep the peace. And everyone has their own set of circumstances. Cutting people off is usually never about one remark, but there's always a last straw.[/quote]

Obviously. But why not just yellow/gray rock them at group get togethers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it really really weird when family cuts off other family. Invariably when I hear details, there are issues on both sides even if one person is more at fault. I hear a lot of stories of defensive language like ‘they were toxic’ ‘I need boundaries’ etc but the reality is that if the person wasn’t also contributing in some way, they wouldn’t need to be so strident and rigid. I have a family member who is likely mentally ill and has caused tons of drama, but are they cut off? No. I feel sorry for them, realize they are a highly imperfect person and I look for ways to connect that are not high conflict. If I engage with them and fight, what does that say about me? I know I can’t expect them to operate on the same emotional level as I do. And that’s ok.

They/we are connected to each other in various ways and ‘cutting them off’ would impact not only me but others. And to me, that’s selfish and unfair.

A parent telling my child they wish they never had me was the final straw

Is that good enough for you ?

One told my preteen, “I never loved your mom.” So yeah, PP will never get it. Or, she’s a narc herself.

I am not a narc but yes, your mother *said* something hurtful. I suspect she’s mentally ill/a narc and it might be compounded by aging issues. Are you so fragile that you can’t see that and rise above her and feel sorry for her? IME the people who cut off family members often do not fix their lives by doing so, they only take the extreme hypersensitivity and aggression to other relationships - you’re doing it right here in these posts with a stranger… not everyone, but many.

Haha, wrong. You have no idea how much peace one gets after cutting off drama-causing family members. I just recently realized I didn't even think of them. Before I'd jump every time my phone pinged. Nope, not sorry for the family member, all her own doing.

Yes, you seem so healthy and content. /s/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, nothing is worth losing your family over, but I have a good enough relationship with all of my family members that it's easy to take that position. If a family member caused me suffering, I would likely take a different position.

Physical, sexual, and emotional abuse are ok with you? Alcoholism, drug addiction, financial abuse? Those are cool for you and your children?

Not cool obviously but all of those except sexual abuse seem like they could be forgiven or at least put aside for the sake of larger family dynamics as well as my own sanity. Lots of parents hit their kids before 20 or 30 years ago. It was not considered abuse. Do I agree with that? No. But I also recognize people are a product of their times. Same with the rest, other than sexual abuse. How old are you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Trying to understand a situation in our family and would appreciate perspective, especially from those who’ve seen similar dynamics.

DH has always had a complicated relationship with his mom. There’s a long pattern of DARVO behavior from her. Historically he’s tolerated it. Recently, she crossed a line by disrespecting me in a way that was clearly intended to manipulate him. He told her they were done unless she could take accountability, apologize, and make it right.

It’s been a year today. No holidays, no visits. DH has siblings but our kids are her only grandkids. From the outside, it feels like she’s choosing being “right” (or being the victim) over having a relationship with her son and grandchildren. I genuinely don’t understand that mindset. If you care about your family, wouldn’t you at least attempt repair?

For those who’ve experienced something similar: what drives this? Pride? Control? Something else? I’m trying to make sense of it.

mental/cognitive rigidity. She has set ideas about how things MUST be and how people should behave and doesn't have the mental flexibility to consider alternate views. She probably cannot handle difficult feelings like shame and instead of internalizing she externalizing and takes it out on others. She probably struggles a lot with empathy and has strong feelings of entitlement from her shoulds and musterbating (that was a term by an old famous CBT therapist who wrote books-don't recall his name. Accountability is important and boundaries are important.

Often with people like this, if they don't see a problem and won't get help. If he ever wants to be in contact (and that should ne his decision) the most he can do is be relational but you cannot have a relationship. (That is from Adult Children of Emotionally immature Parents). You have to let go of any expectation of warmth and genuine kindness and just try to steer the conversation to keep things light and superficial. If she doesn't see a problem, then any interactions he choses to have will be a 1-way street in terms of effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it really really weird when family cuts off other family. Invariably when I hear details, there are issues on both sides even if one person is more at fault. I hear a lot of stories of defensive language like ‘they were toxic’ ‘I need boundaries’ etc but the reality is that if the person wasn’t also contributing in some way, they wouldn’t need to be so strident and rigid. I have a family member who is likely mentally ill and has caused tons of drama, but are they cut off? No. I feel sorry for them, realize they are a highly imperfect person and I look for ways to connect that are not high conflict. If I engage with them and fight, what does that say about me? I know I can’t expect them to operate on the same emotional level as I do. And that’s ok.

They/we are connected to each other in various ways and ‘cutting them off’ would impact not only me but others. And to me, that’s selfish and unfair.

A parent telling my child they wish they never had me was the final straw

Is that good enough for you ?

One told my preteen, “I never loved your mom.” So yeah, PP will never get it. Or, she’s a narc herself.

I am not a narc but yes, your mother *said* something hurtful. I suspect she’s mentally ill/a narc and it might be compounded by aging issues. Are you so fragile that you can’t see that and rise above her and feel sorry for her? IME the people who cut off family members often do not fix their lives by doing so, they only take the extreme hypersensitivity and aggression to other relationships - you’re doing it right here in these posts with a stranger… not everyone, but many.

Whatever! She doesn’t love me, she doesn’t have to see me; no skin, right? But that also means you don’t get to influence my minor children, either. You can do or think whatever you want, it doesn’t affect me and mine.

As I suspected, the ‘protection of children’ is more about you. That’s fine, do what you want, but just eyes wide open that you are carrying forward generational trauma and rifts that may likely be carried onto generations of your family. So generations of family members - aunts, uncles, cousins, etc- may not get to know each other because of this. And if your mom died tomorrow and left $1 million dollars to a sibling instead of some to your children, you’d be okay with that? Would they? Would they as adults?

IME people like this may do hurtful or unequal things in their will as their last "gotcha." This is a terrible reason to keep someone in your life.

Maybe yes, maybe no. But you’re making decisions for your children’s relationships, their cousins, aunts, uncles etc. To me, the best lesson to children is that human relationships are challenging but usually worthwhile and it’s important to learn how to navigate them, good and bad, especially with family bc family is family. I’d prefer to model that to my children. Not ‘uncle Bob did this and that and so I’m never speaking to him again!’ which usually means they won’t either, and then suddenly you have a growing circle of rifts that’s passed down. How tragic. Those bonds they will miss out on can never be repaired.

You can disengage from the negatives if they’re not fixable, and take only the good parts bc invariably there are some. I cannot imagine cutting off ALL contact for my kids with their grandparents bc my elderly mother said something hurtful about me. I think people like this assume intact families are all perfect, or alternatively that we are all just secretly hiding major abuse, but the reality is typically somewhere in the middle.

Yes, part of being a parent is making decisions about your children and their relationships with family. Those are things you can control. You can't control if your child has ADHD but you can certainly control if they spend time with abusive family. I prefer to model healthy boundaries and behaviors for my children.

It's so easy to spot the abusers on these threads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, nothing is worth losing your family over, but I have a good enough relationship with all of my family members that it's easy to take that position. If a family member caused me suffering, I would likely take a different position.

Physical, sexual, and emotional abuse are ok with you? Alcoholism, drug addiction, financial abuse? Those are cool for you and your children?

Not cool obviously but all of those except sexual abuse seem like they could be forgiven or at least put aside for the sake of larger family dynamics as well as my own sanity. Lots of parents hit their kids before 20 or 30 years ago. It was not considered abuse. Do I agree with that? No. But I also recognize people are a product of their times. Same with the rest, other than sexual abuse. How old are you?

Wow. Guess you are not a "let's do better than our parents" type of person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, nothing is worth losing your family over, but I have a good enough relationship with all of my family members that it's easy to take that position. If a family member caused me suffering, I would likely take a different position.

Physical, sexual, and emotional abuse are ok with you? Alcoholism, drug addiction, financial abuse? Those are cool for you and your children?

No, those are all things that cause suffering. See my original qualification.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it really really weird when family cuts off other family. Invariably when I hear details, there are issues on both sides even if one person is more at fault. I hear a lot of stories of defensive language like ‘they were toxic’ ‘I need boundaries’ etc but the reality is that if the person wasn’t also contributing in some way, they wouldn’t need to be so strident and rigid. I have a family member who is likely mentally ill and has caused tons of drama, but are they cut off? No. I feel sorry for them, realize they are a highly imperfect person and I look for ways to connect that are not high conflict. If I engage with them and fight, what does that say about me? I know I can’t expect them to operate on the same emotional level as I do. And that’s ok.

They/we are connected to each other in various ways and ‘cutting them off’ would impact not only me but others. And to me, that’s selfish and unfair.

A parent telling my child they wish they never had me was the final straw

Is that good enough for you ?

One told my preteen, “I never loved your mom.” So yeah, PP will never get it. Or, she’s a narc herself.

I am not a narc but yes, your mother *said* something hurtful. I suspect she’s mentally ill/a narc and it might be compounded by aging issues. Are you so fragile that you can’t see that and rise above her and feel sorry for her? IME the people who cut off family members often do not fix their lives by doing so, they only take the extreme hypersensitivity and aggression to other relationships - you’re doing it right here in these posts with a stranger… not everyone, but many.

Whatever! She doesn’t love me, she doesn’t have to see me; no skin, right? But that also means you don’t get to influence my minor children, either. You can do or think whatever you want, it doesn’t affect me and mine.

As I suspected, the ‘protection of children’ is more about you. That’s fine, do what you want, but just eyes wide open that you are carrying forward generational trauma and rifts that may likely be carried onto generations of your family. So generations of family members - aunts, uncles, cousins, etc- may not get to know each other because of this. And if your mom died tomorrow and left $1 million dollars to a sibling instead of some to your children, you’d be okay with that? Would they? Would they as adults?

IME people like this may do hurtful or unequal things in their will as their last "gotcha." This is a terrible reason to keep someone in your life.

Maybe yes, maybe no. But you’re making decisions for your children’s relationships, their cousins, aunts, uncles etc. To me, the best lesson to children is that human relationships are challenging but usually worthwhile and it’s important to learn how to navigate them, good and bad, especially with family bc family is family. I’d prefer to model that to my children. Not ‘uncle Bob did this and that and so I’m never speaking to him again!’ which usually means they won’t either, and then suddenly you have a growing circle of rifts that’s passed down. How tragic. Those bonds they will miss out on can never be repaired.

You can disengage from the negatives if they’re not fixable, and take only the good parts bc invariably there are some. I cannot imagine cutting off ALL contact for my kids with their grandparents bc my elderly mother said something hurtful about me. I think people like this assume intact families are all perfect, or alternatively that we are all just secretly hiding major abuse, but the reality is typically somewhere in the middle.

Yes, part of being a parent is making decisions about your children and their relationships with family. Those are things you can control. You can't control if your child has ADHD but you can certainly control if they spend time with abusive family. I prefer to model healthy boundaries and behaviors for my children.

It's so easy to spot the abusers on these threads.

Right right anyone who has a different world view is an ‘abuser’. You realize that when you throw this term around so easily, it makes people doubt that your family was ‘abusive’ as you claim. The sad truth is that some kids are just mentally ill