Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

1725 again. I don't see any meaningful difference between commenting on a male co-worker's new glasses (which you see as ok), and commenting on a female co-worker's new haircut (which I see as ok). Do you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1725 again. I don't see any meaningful difference between commenting on a male co-worker's new glasses (which you see as ok), and commenting on a female co-worker's new haircut (which I see as ok). Do you?

First of all, learn the abbreviations. DP means "different poster," so you're assigning someone else's views to me. Secondly, there is a difference between commenting "I see you got new glasses" which is what that poster actually said, and complimenting a female co-worker's new haircut. One is an observation, the other is a compliment, and complimenting someone's looks is a way of putting yourself in the position of validating the person, which is not your place at work. If it is in your job description to judge/validate the person, it's not on their attractiveness. Thirdly, I will take your refusal to answer directly and doubling down on "female co-worker's" as an answer that no, you do not compliment your male colleagues' haircuts. So you yourself do not think it's the same, because you do it to one gender and not the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine telling a co-worker "you look fit" - that seems too body-related. I absolutely will comment to a male co-worker if I think he's lost weight; but I'd never comment at all on weight to a female co-worker. If a female (or male) co-worker shows up with a new haircut ...

[pic here]

... then I'm absolutely going to compliment the new look (even if it's a bad haircut).

I don't see a problem with any of that. Do you?

DP, but why only women? Do you compliment men's haircuts? People (and I use the term advisedly, women do this too) really don't realize how often they default to talking about appearance with women. It's culturally ingrained. Clothes, "have you lost weight?!", hair, even just "you look nice today"; it's constant. Men don't get these comments so they think of it as a rare but appreciated compliment. Women get it all the time and the cumulative effect is that it's just a way that society defaults us to not serious or decorative, while men are considered substantive and vital.

Not "only women" by any means. Read my post again. I'm happy to compliment a male co-worker on his weight loss (but not a female co-worker). To be blunt, my general rule is that female co-workers only exist above the neck. I'll compliment their brains, their haircuts, their glasses. But I'd never give any indication I'm aware that they exist below the neck. By contrast, I'm willing to acknowledge and comment on a male co-worker's entire body - his weight loss, his tie, his shoes, etc.

I could be accused of differential treatment, but not in the way you're trying to suggest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1725 again. I don't see any meaningful difference between commenting on a male co-worker's new glasses (which you see as ok), and commenting on a female co-worker's new haircut (which I see as ok). Do you?

First of all, learn the abbreviations. DP means "different poster," so you're assigning someone else's views to me. Secondly, there is a difference between commenting "I see you got new glasses" which is what that poster actually said, and complimenting a female co-worker's new haircut. One is an observation, the other is a compliment, and complimenting someone's looks is a way of putting yourself in the position of validating the person, which is not your place at work. If it is in your job description to judge/validate the person, it's not on their attractiveness. Thirdly, I will take your refusal to answer directly and doubling down on "female co-worker's" as an answer that no, you do not compliment your male colleagues' haircuts. So you yourself do not think it's the same, because you do it to one gender and not the other.

Don't flatter yourself; I was responding to 17:02, not you.

Try reading my other posts. I do compliment my male colleagues.

You seem like an asshole. I'm leaving, so you can have the last work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about this rule: if you're interested in someone at work or elsewhere, first ask them out (as long as it's not someone you supervise because then the power dynamic is off). Don't start by trying to touch their body or make lewd comments to them. And if they say no to going out, then drop it and look elsewhere.

Seems fairly simple to me.

But the movies say I'm just supposed to know when she's interested and sweep her off her feet. If Han Solo had waited for Leia to say "yes," we would never have had Kylo Ren. O.k., bad example. But you get my point.

I wouldn't look to Hollywood movies for advice. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

Your response just reinforces why it's not as clear cut as women like to pretend. You are clearly a dramatic person who gets indignant and fussy about things that most people would not. Something that is fine with most women would be an HR issue for you. There isn't a one-size-fits-all rule for this stuff, and women should stop acting like it's so simple. Someone saying "hello" to you at a coffeehouse is not in the same realm as Matt Lauer dropping his pants, but you managed to refer to the former as "harassment," which underscores the subjectivity problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

My apologies, 1750... momentary lapse in comprehension. I see you were agreeing... this whole thread has everyone almost too livid to read!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

My apologies, 1750... momentary lapse in comprehension. I see you were agreeing... this whole thread has everyone almost too livid to read!

So a random guy saying hello to you is the same as someone's boss raping them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1725 again. I don't see any meaningful difference between commenting on a male co-worker's new glasses (which you see as ok), and commenting on a female co-worker's new haircut (which I see as ok). Do you?

First of all, learn the abbreviations. DP means "different poster," so you're assigning someone else's views to me. Secondly, there is a difference between commenting "I see you got new glasses" which is what that poster actually said, and complimenting a female co-worker's new haircut. One is an observation, the other is a compliment, and complimenting someone's looks is a way of putting yourself in the position of validating the person, which is not your place at work. If it is in your job description to judge/validate the person, it's not on their attractiveness. Thirdly, I will take your refusal to answer directly and doubling down on "female co-worker's" as an answer that no, you do not compliment your male colleagues' haircuts. So you yourself do not think it's the same, because you do it to one gender and not the other.

NP here. So if he were to say " I see you got a new hair cut!" Would that be okay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

Yes, but if I made the same joking sexualized comments to a female co-worker (“hey Mary, I see you’re wearing those tight slacks again to show off your toned ass!”), it would be a problem.

And if I told my male co-worker that I like his new haircut, it would also be weird. But the same comment to a female co-worker would not.

I’m not trying to excuse inappropriate behavior or comments. I’m just saying there isn’t a one to one comparison between what comments are appropriate or not between same sex and opposite sex conversations.

You shouldn’t be commenting on your female coworkers haircut either, actually. That’s the whole point.

Really? You never compliment another person who you work with?

NP here, and female. I have been thinking about this lately because obviously this stuff is all over the news and coming up everywhere. But I can honestly say that I have never felt constrained by not telling a coworker "you look nice/attractive/fit" or whatever. I compliment my coworkers all the time on their work performance, thank them for how they handle things in my absence, etc. I have commented to male coworkers "I see you got new glasses" and left it at that. This has not made me feel like I am not developing rapport with them, and I think it's odd that some men seem to feel like they have to comment on appearance.

Why are you commenting about their glasses at all? Their glasses have nothing to do with their job perfomance. Also, glasses on men is commonly seen as sexy by women. You commenting on his glasses could be inerpret as you hitting on him a form of sexual harrasment.
It might be a good idea for you to just stick to talking about work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

I smile and say I hi to random people all the time I compliment random men and women all the time. I'm also a woman so you might want to rethink your MRA label. You can call me a jerk if you want too, but most people consider me pretty nice, probably due to me smiling and complimenting them.