Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

Is a man's sole purpose in public to be photographed? There was a thread here not too long ago where a good number of women said it was totally okay to photograph guys because you thought they were hot or find a way to touch them because you thought they were hot. That's okay, but if it were men doing this to women you would be calling it harrassment and calling the men who di it pigs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about this rule: if you're interested in someone at work or elsewhere, first ask them out (as long as it's not someone you supervise because then the power dynamic is off). Don't start by trying to touch their body or make lewd comments to them. And if they say no to going out, then drop it and look elsewhere.

Seems fairly simple to me.

Women are attracted to status and money, i.e. security. I know dozens of successful marriages which are the result of younger women dating their superior. Every time we get new interns there's always a few outgoing ones who eagerly "date" their 25-29yo directors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

Is a man's sole purpose in public to be photographed? There was a thread here not too long ago where a good number of women said it was totally okay to photograph guys because you thought they were hot or find a way to touch them because you thought they were hot. That's okay, but if it were men doing this to women you would be calling it harrassment and calling the men who di it pigs.

I didn’t see that but I would also consider those women to be pigs, and that it is harassment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

Your response just reinforces why it's not as clear cut as women like to pretend. You are clearly a dramatic person who gets indignant and fussy about things that most people would not. Something that is fine with most women would be an HR issue for you. There isn't a one-size-fits-all rule for this stuff, and women should stop acting like it's so simple. Someone saying "hello" to you at a coffeehouse is not in the same realm as Matt Lauer dropping his pants, but you managed to refer to the former as "harassment," which underscores the subjectivity problem.

F*CK OFF AND DIE!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

My apologies, 1750... momentary lapse in comprehension. I see you were agreeing... this whole thread has everyone almost too livid to read!

So a random guy saying hello to you is the same as someone's boss raping them?

They are distant relatives...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

My apologies, 1750... momentary lapse in comprehension. I see you were agreeing... this whole thread has everyone almost too livid to read!

So a random guy saying hello to you is the same as someone's boss raping them?

They are distant relatives...

No they aren't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

Is a man's sole purpose in public to be photographed? There was a thread here not too long ago where a good number of women said it was totally okay to photograph guys because you thought they were hot or find a way to touch them because you thought they were hot. That's okay, but if it were men doing this to women you would be calling it harrassment and calling the men who di it pigs.

I didn’t see that but I would also consider those women to be pigs, and that it is harassment

Well at least you are reasonable.

[Anonymous]

You can't say hello to a random woman at a coffee shop UNLESS you look like that French actor from Unfaithful (2002) -- OR you're an attractive young-ish lawyer/MD wearing a nice custom suit (oh and it helps if your new Range Rover is double parked out front to confirm you have some coin).

No exceptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

Your response just reinforces why it's not as clear cut as women like to pretend. You are clearly a dramatic person who gets indignant and fussy about things that most people would not. Something that is fine with most women would be an HR issue for you. There isn't a one-size-fits-all rule for this stuff, and women should stop acting like it's so simple. Someone saying "hello" to you at a coffeehouse is not in the same realm as Matt Lauer dropping his pants, but you managed to refer to the former as "harassment," which underscores the subjectivity problem.

F*CK OFF AND DIE!!!!!!

Time to go back to Jezebel, where you can be with your people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

Your response just reinforces why it's not as clear cut as women like to pretend. You are clearly a dramatic person who gets indignant and fussy about things that most people would not. Something that is fine with most women would be an HR issue for you. There isn't a one-size-fits-all rule for this stuff, and women should stop acting like it's so simple. Someone saying "hello" to you at a coffeehouse is not in the same realm as Matt Lauer dropping his pants, but you managed to refer to the former as "harassment," which underscores the subjectivity problem.

F*CK OFF AND DIE!!!!!!

Time to go back to Jezebel, where you can be with your people.

Hex!
Hex!
Hex you to Hell!!!!

You are going to Hell!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can't say hello to a random woman at a coffee shop UNLESS you look like that French actor from Unfaithful (2002) -- OR you're an attractive young-ish lawyer/MD wearing a nice custom suit (oh and it helps if your new Range Rover is double parked out front to confirm you have some coin).

No exceptions.

I'm fine with that. Works for me. He can grab my ass all day long!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

My apologies, 1750... momentary lapse in comprehension. I see you were agreeing... this whole thread has everyone almost too livid to read!

So a random guy saying hello to you is the same as someone's boss raping them?

They are distant relatives...

No they aren't.

Ah, yes. We'll just keep letting the men define what rape is or isn't.

You ARE the problem

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about this rule: if you're interested in someone at work or elsewhere, first ask them out (as long as it's not someone you supervise because then the power dynamic is off). Don't start by trying to touch their body or make lewd comments to them. And if they say no to going out, then drop it and look elsewhere.

Seems fairly simple to me.

But the movies say I'm just supposed to know when she's interested and sweep her off her feet. If Han Solo had waited for Leia to say "yes," we would never have had Kylo Ren. O.k., bad example. But you get my point.

1. Movies are not real life. Why are you comparing life to pieces of fiction? Just because Patrick Bateman killed hookers and Paul Allen doesn't mean you have permission to do so.

2. You obviously are on the spectrum. You can't tell when a woman is receptive to your flirtatious gestures? There's a lot of body language involved, her making time to talk to you one-on-one, etc. This isn't hard.

Sincerely,
Married Dude

Can we please stop suggesting men who do this are on the spectrum? This is about power and control, not difficulty reading social cues.

Exactly. In general, men don't "misread cues" from women who are in positions of power over them, or whose cooperation they need for business reasons (e.g., big clients). Somehow it's the women they have power over that just can't be figured out.

[Anonymous]

It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?