Parents of boys who became incels

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have no clue how all these men wind up as incels. WOmen will line up around the block to spend the rest of their lives with you if you have good hygiene, hold a job, do chores and are nice to them.

The bar is literally in hell for men, and they still bring a shovel.
-good hygiene? Yeah right
-a job!? How they gonna play their video games and watch hours of Joe Rogan with a job?!
-do chores? That’s women’s work
-be nice?! You should be grateful this troglodyte is even LOOKING at you, you ungrateful wh0re

Incel mindset in a nutshell.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You guys can debate ethics or profit motive all you want. But a practical result of boys/young men feeling personally disadvantaged in specific situations very likely could be resentment towards those policies, whatever their provenance. I am not saying this makes them incels or justifies red pill culture, but on a human level it is understandable to feel it is 'unfair'.

Then that’s the answer for OP. Teach your sons to be critical thinkers, who are able to move past emotional and illogical knee-jerk reactions. Feeling “personally disadvantaged” by for-profit companies acting…for-profit…is going to be a very painful way to go through life and yes absolutely will lead to resentment and bitterness, even if it isn’t targeted at women.

Somehow you think that the profit notice erases the fact that people can be “personally disadvantaged” or that it doesn’t matter somehow? That’s not critical thinking at all.

Did these boys feel individually disadvantaged by every firm that only recruited out of higher-tier colleges? They disadvantaged all 20 of them.

Did they feel individually disadvantaged by every internship at the firm that was given to the child of a donor, an executive, or a contact?

Or do they only feel disadvantaged because the firm made the choice to recruit girls as well as boys?

If they’re choosing to resent women in the context of all the other people who didn’t give them internships than no, they’re not remotely critical thinkers.

Somehow they are fine when another man gets the job they wanted; that man earned it, good for him. But a woman? How dare they! She’s not more qualified! I have a penis!! Pick me!
🙄

This doesn’t happen with normal people. Under socialized men who perhaps are undiagnosed, maybe. 95% of men? Nope. Doesn’t happen.

Well it apparently happened to multiple men in this thread. And they blamed women for it. Idk what the percentage is, but that’s literally what this thread is about - these incel men who blame women for all their issues. These men would and DO respect men (ones they see as worthy at least). They listen to them. They pay them. This is the entire grift of red pill content.

But how many people is this IRL? The maladjusted ones aren’t exactly reproducing. The men who are within the range of normal aren’t these basement dwellers. And there’s plenty of men who are within the range of normal. You all are arguing with mental children. You can do that of course but the mental children need to get lives and face challenges head on. I have only boys and I just can’t with the whining. Life is unfair, stop whining and be better.

Only men should stop “whining” or do you say the same to feminists?

I’m the PP. If men are whining, they should stop. If women are whining, they should stop. It’s not about “men” and it certainly isn’t about “feminists.”

Everyone has their victim cards to play and they’re only hurting themselves by playing them.

Look this thread isn’t about “whining;” it’s about how do we stop the very real and growing problem of our boys turning into incels. The cure to stop this is to make a conscious effort to raise boys as true feminists.

Boys need to be raised to be masculine. Raising them to be male feminists risks making the red pill arguments more persuasive. Men need goals to which they should work. Doing more chores for their wives won’t motivate them.

Having healthy sons starts with having a father and mother in the home to be good examples. Then is means teaching the boys what the boys should give to their families and what they should expect.

Hilarious how “cooking for yourself” or “cleaning your own house” are somehow “chores for his wife”. No dude, it’s f***ing life skills and common sense.

You are part of the problem. If not, THE problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys can debate ethics or profit motive all you want. But a practical result of boys/young men feeling personally disadvantaged in specific situations very likely could be resentment towards those policies, whatever their provenance. I am not saying this makes them incels or justifies red pill culture, but on a human level it is understandable to feel it is 'unfair'.

Then that’s the answer for OP. Teach your sons to be critical thinkers, who are able to move past emotional and illogical knee-jerk reactions. Feeling “personally disadvantaged” by for-profit companies acting…for-profit…is going to be a very painful way to go through life and yes absolutely will lead to resentment and bitterness, even if it isn’t targeted at women.

Somehow you think that the profit notice erases the fact that people can be “personally disadvantaged” or that it doesn’t matter somehow? That’s not critical thinking at all.

Did these boys feel individually disadvantaged by every firm that only recruited out of higher-tier colleges? They disadvantaged all 20 of them.

Did they feel individually disadvantaged by every internship at the firm that was given to the child of a donor, an executive, or a contact?

Or do they only feel disadvantaged because the firm made the choice to recruit girls as well as boys?

If they’re choosing to resent women in the context of all the other people who didn’t give them internships than no, they’re not remotely critical thinkers.

Somehow they are fine when another man gets the job they wanted; that man earned it, good for him. But a woman? How dare they! She’s not more qualified! I have a penis!! Pick me!
🙄

This doesn’t happen with normal people. Under socialized men who perhaps are undiagnosed, maybe. 95% of men? Nope. Doesn’t happen.

Well it apparently happened to multiple men in this thread. And they blamed women for it. Idk what the percentage is, but that’s literally what this thread is about - these incel men who blame women for all their issues. These men would and DO respect men (ones they see as worthy at least). They listen to them. They pay them. This is the entire grift of red pill content.

But how many people is this IRL? The maladjusted ones aren’t exactly reproducing. The men who are within the range of normal aren’t these basement dwellers. And there’s plenty of men who are within the range of normal. You all are arguing with mental children. You can do that of course but the mental children need to get lives and face challenges head on. I have only boys and I just can’t with the whining. Life is unfair, stop whining and be better.

Only men should stop “whining” or do you say the same to feminists?

I’m the PP. If men are whining, they should stop. If women are whining, they should stop. It’s not about “men” and it certainly isn’t about “feminists.”

Everyone has their victim cards to play and they’re only hurting themselves by playing them.

Look this thread isn’t about “whining;” it’s about how do we stop the very real and growing problem of our boys turning into incels. The cure to stop this is to make a conscious effort to raise boys as true feminists.

Boys need to be raised to be masculine. Raising them to be male feminists risks making the red pill arguments more persuasive. Men need goals to which they should work. Doing more chores for their wives won’t motivate them.

Having healthy sons starts with having a father and mother in the home to be good examples. Then is means teaching the boys what the boys should give to their families and what they should expect.

Here is why we are f’ed. Because people believe that being masculine and being a feminist are mutually exclusive.

Men and women want different things from each other. Feminism doesn’t do a great job of acknowledging that reality. You’re welcome to explain how feminism complements masculinity from a man’s perspective. Not sure I’ve seen that case made in a compelling fashion, but maybe I don’t read broadly enough.

…you think women being able to vote, have jobs with equal pay and not being discriminated against are anti-masculine? You think it would be a benefit to men if women just went back to silent f*** slaves in the kitchen?

Yeah, you are definitely the problem with society and should have no say in how boys are raised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys can debate ethics or profit motive all you want. But a practical result of boys/young men feeling personally disadvantaged in specific situations very likely could be resentment towards those policies, whatever their provenance. I am not saying this makes them incels or justifies red pill culture, but on a human level it is understandable to feel it is 'unfair'.

Then that’s the answer for OP. Teach your sons to be critical thinkers, who are able to move past emotional and illogical knee-jerk reactions. Feeling “personally disadvantaged” by for-profit companies acting…for-profit…is going to be a very painful way to go through life and yes absolutely will lead to resentment and bitterness, even if it isn’t targeted at women.

Somehow you think that the profit notice erases the fact that people can be “personally disadvantaged” or that it doesn’t matter somehow? That’s not critical thinking at all.

Did these boys feel individually disadvantaged by every firm that only recruited out of higher-tier colleges? They disadvantaged all 20 of them.

Did they feel individually disadvantaged by every internship at the firm that was given to the child of a donor, an executive, or a contact?

Or do they only feel disadvantaged because the firm made the choice to recruit girls as well as boys?

If they’re choosing to resent women in the context of all the other people who didn’t give them internships than no, they’re not remotely critical thinkers.

Somehow they are fine when another man gets the job they wanted; that man earned it, good for him. But a woman? How dare they! She’s not more qualified! I have a penis!! Pick me!
🙄

This doesn’t happen with normal people. Under socialized men who perhaps are undiagnosed, maybe. 95% of men? Nope. Doesn’t happen.

Well it apparently happened to multiple men in this thread. And they blamed women for it. Idk what the percentage is, but that’s literally what this thread is about - these incel men who blame women for all their issues. These men would and DO respect men (ones they see as worthy at least). They listen to them. They pay them. This is the entire grift of red pill content.

But how many people is this IRL? The maladjusted ones aren’t exactly reproducing. The men who are within the range of normal aren’t these basement dwellers. And there’s plenty of men who are within the range of normal. You all are arguing with mental children. You can do that of course but the mental children need to get lives and face challenges head on. I have only boys and I just can’t with the whining. Life is unfair, stop whining and be better.

Only men should stop “whining” or do you say the same to feminists?

I’m the PP. If men are whining, they should stop. If women are whining, they should stop. It’s not about “men” and it certainly isn’t about “feminists.”

Everyone has their victim cards to play and they’re only hurting themselves by playing them.

Look this thread isn’t about “whining;” it’s about how do we stop the very real and growing problem of our boys turning into incels. The cure to stop this is to make a conscious effort to raise boys as true feminists.

Boys need to be raised to be masculine. Raising them to be male feminists risks making the red pill arguments more persuasive. Men need goals to which they should work. Doing more chores for their wives won’t motivate them.

Having healthy sons starts with having a father and mother in the home to be good examples. Then is means teaching the boys what the boys should give to their families and what they should expect.

Here is why we are f’ed. Because people believe that being masculine and being a feminist are mutually exclusive.

Men and women want different things from each other. Feminism doesn’t do a great job of acknowledging that reality. You’re welcome to explain how feminism complements masculinity from a man’s perspective. Not sure I’ve seen that case made in a compelling fashion, but maybe I don’t read broadly enough.

NP but that women want to be able to vote, autonomy over their own bodies and equal rights should not be not complementary to what men want, should it? I mean, many men want women without a voice to be subservient to them - but that doesn’t seem like what’s good for women at all, does it?

Men who want subservient women generally want to provide for those women. You may think that’s a bad deal, but it’s not a one-way street.

I think women should choose whatever they want. I also recognize that things women want (like a career) don’t make them more attractive to men. Like women, men should choose whatever they want, too.

IME men who genuinely want subservient women want the *appearance* of being able to provide for those women. More often than not, the reality is that they can’t, and they use their subservient (working) wives in a pitiful attempt to boost their egos and gain superficial status with other like-minded men.

Men who are actually able to provide for their families (including their wives) generally do not care to tell their wives what to do or how to act. They are secure enough in their own worth that they don’t need to hold their wives under their thumb.

I agree with your entire post, but absolutely the bolded.

Many men I see these days want to be a provider and have a subservient wife. But she also has to work, bc he can’t afford the mortgage, and she also has to care for the children, bc ew diapers or fluids, she also has to do all the cooking and cleaning. I read a story the other day from a young woman, living with her family. Her bf moved in, and lives rent free. They both work. He still expects her to cook all his meals, pack his lunch, clean their space and of course on demand sex. That’s not a partner, that’s a slave. Women literally get NOTHING out of these relationships, and men still think they should be grateful for “saving them from a single life with cats”. It’s messed up.

[Anonymous]

I feel bad for OP, who asked a genuine question and got pages of juvenile sniping.

OP, I only have a daughter, but she has male friends, peers, and cousins. They're older teens, and watching them grow up, I've been able to see for a while now which ones are going which way.

The better boys: do chores, are held to consistent standards (grades, behavior at home), participate in some kind of organized activity (often a sport, but D&D or Magic count) and exhibit curiosity.
The concerning boys: spent a ton of time alone on their devices. That's it. That's the single unifying factor.

From the parents end: the better boys' parents have and enforce expectations and model accountability. The concerning boys' parents take a lighter hand. They don't encourage their kids to go outside their comfort zone in any consistent way, because it often means a fight.

But what's chicken and what's egg? I can see the argument that recalcitrant boys, the ones who really dig in and get obnoxious about any expectations, might cause their parents throw their hands up and turn their focus to fights they can win. The incel-trending boys are often resistant to everything, and it's just so much easier to leave them alone. At least when they're alone in their rooms on their devices, they're not fighting. This might feel like it's better for the rest of the household. And I get that. I've seen in happen in multiple families. That temporary peace isn't turning out to have been a good tradeoff.

I think it depends on consistency, early and often. A PP's comment about supporting their boys' interests, even if they're not "manly" really resonated with me. All parents should find something to share with their kids. Even if it means the parent has to learn something new, or do something they don't truly love. Maintain that point of connection. If they'll talk to you about Valorant (because you're not a total ignoramus and don't say dumb things like "why can't you just shoot that guy?", it'll be easier to talk to you about other things. This doesn't depend on HHI or having a SAHP, or public vs private school, or any external markers. It's available to literally everyone, and it doesn't take much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

I'm thinking of the fact that little boys everywhere, practically from birth, wear shirts with other men's names on them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

I had this argument with my dad, a boomer who honestly wants what's best for everyone, but is at heart conservative. It worked for him and his generation, why change it? He would never exclude an individual, but he disapproves of active inclusion bc merit.
He didn't like Biden committing to putting a woman of color on the supreme court. He said it should go to the best person and not be reserved for a person of a certain race and gender. I pointed out that every supreme court seat up to 1967, and most of them since then, have been reserved for a person of a certain race and gender. He was speechless. I think I broke him. These ideas are SO engrained. Women and people of color have been SO erased that the very idea of including them is like discovering aliens. It's going to take some time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

I had this argument with my dad, a boomer who honestly wants what's best for everyone, but is at heart conservative. It worked for him and his generation, why change it? He would never exclude an individual, but he disapproves of active inclusion bc merit.
He didn't like Biden committing to putting a woman of color on the supreme court. He said it should go to the best person and not be reserved for a person of a certain race and gender. I pointed out that every supreme court seat up to 1967, and most of them since then, have been reserved for a person of a certain race and gender. He was speechless. I think I broke him. These ideas are SO engrained. Women and people of color have been SO erased that the very idea of including them is like discovering aliens. It's going to take some time.

I’m the pp you responded to, and I don’t disagree. It’s just so disheartening to see WOMEN decrying having spaces for girls. Like it’s been the opposite for thousands of years, but suddenly because girls can join scouts it’s the downfall of society? This is 100% the parents job, and people like this woman/mom are actually pushing their boys to join this movement. They are the ones who start this thought process - why aren’t there posters of male athletes?! (Like there arent f***ing any?!)- that their boys pick up on, and start believing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

+1. It's everywhere in literature, from the very earliest books we read them. Llama Llama Red Pajama? Give A Mouse A Cookie? Where the Wild Things Are? All boys. Yes, you can find books starring girls, but those are explicitly girls' books. The ones everyone gets at their baby shower more often feature a boy as the main character.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.