Parents of boys who became incels

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

Correct.

This happened recently with the Summer reading list at Cooper Middle School in Fairfax County, VA:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1152800.page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

Is it to remove books by cis white men? Or to add more books by others? Are they removing Shel Silverstein and Maurice Sendak and Mo Willems?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

Correct.

This happened recently with the Summer reading list at Cooper Middle School in Fairfax County, VA:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1152800.page

The list as a whole contains few literary works written by or about cisgender white males. But the first 5 books in particular illustrate the point:

1. A Good Kind of Trouble, by Lisa Moor Ramee, in praise and support of BLM principles
2. All American Boys by Brenan Kiely and Jason Reynolds, on anti-racism / CRT
3. Amal Unbound by Aisha Saeed, about a Pakistan/family experiencing discrimination
4. Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe by Benjamin Alire Saenz, about homosexuality acceptance
5. Blended by Sharon M. Draper, concerning a Black father and white mother, and their BIPOC children

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

Is it to remove books by cis white men? Or to add more books by others? Are they removing Shel Silverstein and Maurice Sendak and Mo Willems?

I think it’s an extension of the educational effort to center other voices, and to create space or highlight authors of color, womyn authors, and LGTBQIA+ literary works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

There are only so many books to be in schools. ADDING books by women and non-white authors does not detract from cis white make authors. Again, this is your bizarre scarcity mindset about white males. Are white men the majority in schools? Why shouldn’t there be books from black, brown or asian authors? From lgbtq authors? Dont most places have more students than just cis white males? Why don’t you want students other than them to read something relatable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

Historically you are absolutely right. As an adult, I think it’s amazing to have these things for girls. I’m telling you that 8, 9, 10 year old boys do not have the same history that you and I do where girls couldn’t do that stuff and now they can and we love it. All they see, from when they are babies, is outward celebration of girls as a cohort, and not of boys. Yes, male athletes and male politicians are the “standard” and you’re obviously correct on your point but that’s the problem- they’re for everyone. It’s not “let’s watch boys basketball and celebrate boys and talk about how little boys can grow up to do this”, it’s just “basketball” and “kids”. Boys are not explicitly singled out the way girls are. And kids don’t get nuance, they just grow up with the message of “boys and men are just the standard that we rally against, and girls are special”. You may not like it, but failing to recognize this is why these boys are turning to MRA groups and trying to ruin the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

Is it to remove books by cis white men? Or to add more books by others? Are they removing Shel Silverstein and Maurice Sendak and Mo Willems?

I think it’s an extension of the educational effort to center other voices, and to create space or highlight authors of color, womyn authors, and LGTBQIA+ literary works.

Right. But is that exclusionary to white cis men? Or simply a balancing of the voices available? It feels like men are mad at no longer being the default voice in every space, or at the potential for having to compete on a bigger field. And there's this refusal to recognize that not being given automatic preference is not the same as being excluded.

I read a fair amount of science fiction, historically utterly dominated by men, and when women authors started getting the big awards, some men lost. their. minds. It was no longer a boys-only space. They had to compete with some amazing authors who might never have entered the space 50 years ago, or gotten an agent/ publisher if they had tried. "Because no one will buy sci fi by women. Sorry, it's just the market." And men just couldn't handle the increased competition. They wanted to keep the "no girls allowed" sign on the clubhouse door.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

I had this argument with my dad, a boomer who honestly wants what's best for everyone, but is at heart conservative. It worked for him and his generation, why change it? He would never exclude an individual, but he disapproves of active inclusion bc merit.
He didn't like Biden committing to putting a woman of color on the supreme court. He said it should go to the best person and not be reserved for a person of a certain race and gender. I pointed out that every supreme court seat up to 1967, and most of them since then, have been reserved for a person of a certain race and gender. He was speechless. I think I broke him. These ideas are SO engrained. Women and people of color have been SO erased that the very idea of including them is like discovering aliens. It's going to take some time.

I’m the pp you responded to, and I don’t disagree. It’s just so disheartening to see WOMEN decrying having spaces for girls. Like it’s been the opposite for thousands of years, but suddenly because girls can join scouts it’s the downfall of society? This is 100% the parents job, and people like this woman/mom are actually pushing their boys to join this movement. They are the ones who start this thought process - why aren’t there posters of male athletes?! (Like there arent f***ing any?!)- that their boys pick up on, and start believing.

I assume you’re referring to me, and I love spaces just for girls. We just ALSO need to keep some spaces just for boys. Yes, throughout history that was the problem, that literally most spaces were just for boys. Try explaining that to the second grade boys who really just want to join the running club or the coding club but they’re told “sorry it’s just for girls”. Remember how devesreting that was for young girls to hear in the 70s? We are literally doing it again, but to little boys, and THATS where the stupid MRA nonsense is coming from

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

Historically you are absolutely right. As an adult, I think it’s amazing to have these things for girls. I’m telling you that 8, 9, 10 year old boys do not have the same history that you and I do where girls couldn’t do that stuff and now they can and we love it. All they see, from when they are babies, is outward celebration of girls as a cohort, and not of boys. Yes, male athletes and male politicians are the “standard” and you’re obviously correct on your point but that’s the problem- they’re for everyone. It’s not “let’s watch boys basketball and celebrate boys and talk about how little boys can grow up to do this”, it’s just “basketball” and “kids”. Boys are not explicitly singled out the way girls are. And kids don’t get nuance, they just grow up with the message of “boys and men are just the standard that we rally against, and girls are special”. You may not like it, but failing to recognize this is why these boys are turning to MRA groups and trying to ruin the world.

So your issue is that women also watch the NBA? Your issue is that women and girls have too many “male” hobbies that are taking space away from boys?

Women’s bball has only just recently taken off to be more mainstream, mainly because of Caitlyn Clark. But otherwise, you turn on the tv, you ONLY see men. Most people would be hard pressed to name a top female athlete, aside from maybe 2-3. Ask them to name a male? You’ll get hundreds.

You’re rallying against the pendulum swing towards girls, but it’s really not even close to “even” yet. You’re rallying against boys and men being the majority of everything. They don’t want to share.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

Historically you are absolutely right. As an adult, I think it’s amazing to have these things for girls. I’m telling you that 8, 9, 10 year old boys do not have the same history that you and I do where girls couldn’t do that stuff and now they can and we love it. All they see, from when they are babies, is outward celebration of girls as a cohort, and not of boys. Yes, male athletes and male politicians are the “standard” and you’re obviously correct on your point but that’s the problem- they’re for everyone. It’s not “let’s watch boys basketball and celebrate boys and talk about how little boys can grow up to do this”, it’s just “basketball” and “kids”. Boys are not explicitly singled out the way girls are. And kids don’t get nuance, they just grow up with the message of “boys and men are just the standard that we rally against, and girls are special”. You may not like it, but failing to recognize this is why these boys are turning to MRA groups and trying to ruin the world.

So your issue is that women also watch the NBA? Your issue is that women and girls have too many “male” hobbies that are taking space away from boys?

Women’s bball has only just recently taken off to be more mainstream, mainly because of Caitlyn Clark. But otherwise, you turn on the tv, you ONLY see men. Most people would be hard pressed to name a top female athlete, aside from maybe 2-3. Ask them to name a male? You’ll get hundreds.

You’re rallying against the pendulum swing towards girls, but it’s really not even close to “even” yet. You’re rallying against boys and men being the majority of everything. They don’t want to share.

Rallying against. It’s and men NOT* being the majority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

When I say “real men” I am referring to men who are not incel men’s right activist losers. I am including literally every other man in my definition of “real men”. Try again.