Getting seperated...what is fair?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You sound like a great mom and a very civil person. Yes, he's trying to keep as much as possible for himself, even though there are children involved and this divorce is his choice.

As for having a civil divorce, don't feel like that's entirely your burden, and like you need to give him everything he wants for the sake of your kids. He is exploiting your desire to keep things civil, it seems, and it will hurt you and your kids so much to end up so disadvantaged.

By offering you next to nothing in this extremely lopsided, outrageously selfish deal, he's already shown you his cards, his nature, and his motivations. He will screw you and the kids if he can to keep the money, the house, and his preferred lifestyle.

And while I really don't want to rub salt in your wounds, I wouldn't assume there isn't another woman in the picture. You need a lawyer to dig into these "debts" he's secretly accumulated and is now using as leverage against you to try to keep the house. Sounds like a lot of flimflam to me.

If you take other posters' advice (and I hope you do - it's very good advice), he's going to use your need for civility. He's going to make things extremely uncivil. Brace yourself. You care about your children's well being, and, presumably, your own well being. His actions make it clear he doesn't. So there's no real impediment to incivility other than the law. That's why you need to get legal help right away.

By the way, the likelihood that there is someone else more he's seriously involved with is fairly high. Sorry, but, based on what you wrote about him, that's the probable reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

. Why do you think you should get his retirement? He worked for it, it is his. Keep it simple, because in the long run, you could get burned.

No no no no. why would she get burned? she deserves part of it because he was able to sock away at the max (and get matched, probably)-while racking up joint debt--while she reduced hours and pay and ability to save for retirement to stay home and raise kids and run the household. This is how she gets screwed. Maybe he's been planning for divorce--he's managed to contribute to his retirement to the max, but has racked up mutual debt that he's now willing to take on in exchange for the house? NO NO NO. OP, is ALL the debt accounted for? Are you sure he's not been socking away money? You may think it is impossible that he'd do that, but anything is possible.

OP, you need a lawyer and financial disclosure.

as for child support--the courts may determine that but a good lawyer will negotiate a lot for you. You can't afford NOT to have a lawyer. If you want to get an idea of what you might get, there are child support calculators online for some states (including DC).

This, exactly. You may be blindsided by the news, OP, but he didn't decide all this overnight.

[Anonymous]

OP I know everyone here is telling you to go for the jugular and get a lawyer. You said you were trying to do everything on your own and he seems like he is trying to get out as fast as possible by making what seems like good offers.

You should still consult with an attorney, but if you and he are on terms where you can work it out I would still try it that way. Tell him that anything you agree to you will have an attorney review before it is approved. There are A LOT of details that go into a divorce agreement/custody agreement.

He is right that joint custody is the standard, but educate yourself on what that means. It means one person is the primary custodial parent (kids live with the majority of the time), one is the non custodial parent (has visitation) and both parents have joint legal decision making powers for the children.

If you want a portion of the retirement, also be prepared to take on a portion of the debt. Depending on how much the debt is and how much of the retirement you could get, not touching the retirement and getting out debt free might be better, but only an attorney could help you with that.

As far as the house, don't move out until everything is done and support is established. Make sure that the amount you agree to is legal, and make sure you establish who will pay for what including school, college, vacations, etc...

[Anonymous]

I actually don't see anyone has advised her to go for the jugular. But I've seen plenty of people tell her to get a lawyer so that she can get a fair deal for herself and her kids.

This is not about revenge, it's about fairness -- and her children's well-being, as well as her own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I am in Maryland. I guess I am still in shock, and a bit out of touch with the cost of living here. In Montgomery county would $1500 be that much less than average? $100,000 is a pretty average salary, I would think. Also, I did my numbers based on my getting full time hours ...which I will need no matter what. It will make going back to school pretty tough, but I can get a much better job in my field with a master's.

Thanks soooooooo much to everyone for the advice.

This is what temporary alimony is for. He gives you a certain amount until you get a new job with a higher salary. The court would likely give you a time limit. 2 years to get an advanced degree and it's expected that degree gets you a job that pays a certain amount.

In Maryland they presume all property is marital property. That house, retirement, and debt is just as much yours as it is his. Doesn't matter your work status history or who opened the credit cards.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually don't see anyone has advised her to go for the jugular. But I've seen plenty of people tell her to get a lawyer so that she can get a fair deal for herself and her kids.

This is not about revenge, it's about fairness -- and her children's well-being, as well as her own.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the responses. We have ironed out a bunch on our own. We used the online calculator to come up with $1500 in child support with the kids on his insurance and me on my own insurance. Does this seem about right?

We are trying to do collaborative divorce due to the finances and children involved. It has not been easy. His first idea was that I would move out and I would watch the kids for him until he could get home (sometimes not until 8 or 9 when he plays sports or whatever). Then, pick them up to go to school the next day. Basically, I was supposed to continue catering his schedule (raising the kids as usual), but also get a second job and live elsewhere.

I don't suspect a physical affair, because he most of his outside activities are with men we both know. However, I recently found out that he has been keeping in touch with an old girlfriend who lives far away. While hurtful that he lied and hid it, I don't think it really matters at this point.

On the retirement point, I just wanted to say thayt I am not out for anything that is his. Yes, he earned it at a job that compensates him for his work. There was a year, aside from my bed rest pregnancies and maturnity leaves, that I stayed home for various reasons. We have a child with some special needs and the cost of a private special preschool was as much as I made. I have a background in this, so it made sense for me to stay home. I worked harder during that year than any year of my life. My husband has been apart of these decisions and OUR children benifited. There were times when I did work full time. However, as a natural consequence of taking time off or going part-time, my earning power and retirement has suffered. It did not seem like a huge sacrifice to me when the idea was that we both would have the comfort of his retirement (which we have always put more into). We have never had to pay childcare, and he benifited from my contributions to the household (saved on expensive interventions with my son). It just seems unfair that the rules of the game should change in the middle. I am not asking for half his retirement, but a portion based on the length of our marriage.

You are right to ask for a portion of retirement. I would be a little careful on collaborative divorce. I sometimes feel it focuses more on the collaboration and less on what you have a right to. You absolutely have a right to 50% of whatever was contributed to his retirement fund during your years together.

Just want to say that the his first idea of you moving out but continuing to care for the kids is laughable -- glad you could see that. Our culture often doesn't take into account the ways in which the woman's contribution of caring for the children negatively affects her career path and opportunities and ability to save for retirement etc. Your husband absolutely should provide some alimony on top of child support if you need that until your annual income increases (and this may be for several years after you start working again, not just until the first job you get).

$1500 sounds low to me, particularly if you have a SN child with who will need evaluations, therapy, and perhaps even private school. Did you factor these needs into the child support calculator? Make sure you don't leave the collaborative divorce table without explicit agreements on how medical, therapeutic and educational decisions will be made for the SN child and how payment will be divided.

Do not make any decisions about the debt until the husband lays out all debt -- not just how much but also for what purpose it was spent and which debt was taken with your knowledge and without. Would also advise you to comb thru past credit card statements, etc. If he has been in touch with an old girlfriend, there may or may not be more there. I would want to know if some of that "joint debt" was racked up for activities with another girlfriend.

You can get a lawyer at an hourly rate for 1-2 hours before you agree to become a client and have to pay a retainer. Lay out all your assets and ask for a thumbnail sketch of what the lawyer thinks is likely/appropriate in terms of a fair split on assets and debt and child custody issues. Frankly, I would do this with at least one non-collaborative attorney practice and one collaborative attorney. Ask the collaborative attorney -- do you have a client duty to represent me and only me? do you have a fiduciary duty to represent my best interests? does what I share with my collaborative attorney stay private, i.e. is there still an attorney/client privilege in the collaborative process? what happens if we can't agree in the collaborative process? how does the collaborative process ensure that I get access to all information about finances --debts and assets? It's critical for you to shop around and find someone with whom you are comfortable. You should also ask both kinds of attorneys what is the normal arrangement vis-a-vis fees for the split -- are they paid for out of joint marital assets, or is each party expected to pay separately after the divorce is complete. The latter would put you at a real disadvantage and is probably somewhat negotiable.

[Anonymous]

Don't rely on the on line calculators, I did and it was way off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Divorce attorneys out there, please help this OP. Her husband is pulling the snow job from hell on her and she has children, one special needs. This is very sad.

$250 for a one hour consult. I am not giving free advice here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Divorce attorneys out there, please help this OP. Her husband is pulling the snow job from hell on her and she has children, one special needs. This is very sad.

$250 for a one hour consult. I am not giving free advice here.

That's OK, other people already did and will continue to do so. And it sounds like everyone's made a decent case for the need for an attorney which is really what was needed. Didn't mean you.

[Anonymous]

This is a thread I wish I hadn't clicked on. OP, I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm hoping that your initial response to want to be nice and please him are temporary and that you soon get mad and ready to advocate for yourself and your kids.
Please follow the advice of (most of) the PPs and get a lawyer. Collaboration is great when both partners respect each other and wish the best for each other. Your husband does not appear to be in this category. You need someone who can go through all the debt, all the assets and make sure that you and your kids are covered.

Please, it's time to get mad. Your husband is taking advantage of you. You should not be a doormat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I know everyone here is telling you to go for the jugular and get a lawyer. You said you were trying to do everything on your own and he seems like he is trying to get out as fast as possible by making what seems like good offers.

You should still consult with an attorney, but if you and he are on terms where you can work it out I would still try it that way. Tell him that anything you agree to you will have an attorney review before it is approved. There are A LOT of details that go into a divorce agreement/custody agreement.

He is right that joint custody is the standard, but educate yourself on what that means. It means one person is the primary custodial parent (kids live with the majority of the time), one is the non custodial parent (has visitation) and both parents have joint legal decision making powers for the children.

If you want a portion of the retirement, also be prepared to take on a portion of the debt. Depending on how much the debt is and how much of the retirement you could get, not touching the retirement and getting out debt free might be better, but only an attorney could help you with that.

As far as the house, don't move out until everything is done and support is established. Make sure that the amount you agree to is legal, and make sure you establish who will pay for what including school, college, vacations, etc...

OP, I am writing from the perspective of a man who is also going through a divorce. I am the one who decided to divorce my DW. No need to go into the reasons why, just that in the end I felt it necessary for my my health and the health of my children. If you and your husband can work out the framework of an agreement, you should still both have it reviewed by a lawyer who can advise you on what is fair under the laws of your state. Get your DH's credit report, copies of his retirement statements, etc. Also, what does your DH do for a living? If he has a pension in addition to a 401(K), you will also have certain rights to that as well, not 50/50 but a formula based on the length of the marriage and the pension calcuation. Do not get caught up in emotions, no matter what? I, unfortunately, was not able to get an amicable divorce, and the better you and your DH can work things out without it getting nasty, the better it is for your kids. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a thread I wish I hadn't clicked on. OP, I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm hoping that your initial response to want to be nice and please him are temporary and that you soon get mad and ready to advocate for yourself and your kids.
Please follow the advice of (most of) the PPs and get a lawyer. Collaboration is great when both partners respect each other and wish the best for each other. Your husband does not appear to be in this category. You need someone who can go through all the debt, all the assets and make sure that you and your kids are covered.

Yes. This. Please, print this out and put it in your wallet. He is living in lala land if he thinks he can threaten you with the debt and thereby walk away with the house, no alimony, and peanuts in child support. I bet he's hoping you just trust him -- as you apparently have for many years. And look how that ended up.

I'm sorry, OP. You will come through this emotionally stronger. Please do what you have to do to make sure you don't come through this financially devastated.

[Anonymous]

"You should still consult with an attorney, but if you and he are on terms where you can work it out I would still try it that way. Tell him that anything you agree to you will have an attorney review before it is approved. There are A LOT of details that go into a divorce agreement/custody agreement."

Yes. OP, first of all, forget about deciding whether to do mediation or collaborative divorce, or how much child support you should get. This is what you do:

1) Make a list of all your assets and liabilities, joint and separate. Pull your free credit reports (FTC website) to make sure you know everything. Have a friend or family member help you if this is overwhelming.

2) Borrow some money from family and spend $1000 or so for a few hours consulting with a couple lawyers. Take a trusted friend or family member with you to listen and take really good notes.

3) Sit down and make a list of all the issues you'll have to negotiate, and put down what the lawyers have advised you that you are likely to receive in each area.

4) Compare that to what STBX is offering to determine where there are differences. Then negotiate, either by yourself, with the help of someone you know, with an attorney, or with a mediator.

5) Have an attorney review the draft agreement once it is together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"You should still consult with an attorney, but if you and he are on terms where you can work it out I would still try it that way. Tell him that anything you agree to you will have an attorney review before it is approved. There are A LOT of details that go into a divorce agreement/custody agreement."

Yes. OP, first of all, forget about deciding whether to do mediation or collaborative divorce, or how much child support you should get. This is what you do:

1) Make a list of all your assets and liabilities, joint and separate. Pull your free credit reports (FTC website) to make sure you know everything. Have a friend or family member help you if this is overwhelming.

2) Borrow some money from family and spend $1000 or so for a few hours consulting with a couple lawyers. Take a trusted friend or family member with you to listen and take really good notes.

3) Sit down and make a list of all the issues you'll have to negotiate, and put down what the lawyers have advised you that you are likely to receive in each area.

4) Compare that to what STBX is offering to determine where there are differences. Then negotiate, either by yourself, with the help of someone you know, with an attorney, or with a mediator.

5) Have an attorney review the draft agreement once it is together.

With a couple acting in good faith, this could work. But given the unacceptable terms OP's husband has already offered (especially the first one, where she would basically move out and be his free nanny while he kept the kids and the house!), and given the dishonesty and deceit he's already displayed (taking out loans she didn't know about; understating the amount of the loans she DID know about, and being in touch with an old girlfriend), he sounds like a snake and she needs the real deal in terms of lawyers. It would not be surprising if he was playing games with the money to try to hide it/convince her that he's getting the worse end of the deal by assuming the debt and keeping the house. This does not sound at all like a trustworthy person.