Asians are NOT the model minority: the Affirmative Action Chess Game

[Anonymous]

Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What matters with is what's going to be like from now on.

It'll be race blind for all schools.

Some like MIT, GIT, UF, UG, etc. will requrire test scores.
Some like UCB, UCLA, CalTech will be test blind.
Many will be Test Optional.

So game on.

You act like those are the only options.

HYP could recruit all their students as they do athletes. That'd actually be LESS work for them and they would get whoever they wanted.

That's right, Larlo might not be even able to apply. HYP skims the cream before everyone else's ED deadline.

Be careful what you wish for!

Be careful what you wish for.

CalTech is already sort of doing that.
Its actually already test blind and sort of color blind.
Blacks 6%

Let's be honest, though.. not a whole lot of black kids going into STEM.

Uh-oh, the race troll has found his way into this thread.

NP. So you dispute this statement? I’m Asian and am in tech and I do a ton of interviewing and maybe maybe get a black candidate every 15 interviews. I’ve been doing this for 20 years and it’s always been this way.

I'm the PP who made the comment about not a lot of black people in STEM, and I also have been working in high tech for 20 years, most of it in Silicon Valley. I could count on one hand the number of Black people I've worked with in the past 20 years, and I've worked with some big name tech companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What matters with is what's going to be like from now on.

It'll be race blind for all schools.

Some like MIT, GIT, UF, UG, etc. will requrire test scores.
Some like UCB, UCLA, CalTech will be test blind.
Many will be Test Optional.

So game on.

You act like those are the only options.

HYP could recruit all their students as they do athletes. That'd actually be LESS work for them and they would get whoever they wanted.

That's right, Larlo might not be even able to apply. HYP skims the cream before everyone else's ED deadline.

Be careful what you wish for!

Be careful what you wish for.

CalTech is already sort of doing that.
Its actually already test blind and sort of color blind.
Blacks 6%

Let's be honest, though.. not a whole lot of black kids going into STEM.

Uh-oh, the race troll has found his way into this thread.

NP. So you dispute this statement? I’m Asian and am in tech and I do a ton of interviewing and maybe maybe get a black candidate every 15 interviews. I’ve been doing this for 20 years and it’s always been this way.

I'm the PP who made the comment about not a lot of black people in STEM, and I also have been working in high tech for 20 years, most of it in Silicon Valley. I could count on one hand the number of Black people I've worked with in the past 20 years, and I've worked with some big name tech companies.

My apologies. There have been many trolling comments on this thread, and your initial statement seemed like it might be trying to rile people up. Now that you've explained it, I can see you were just making a statement of your experience.

One in 15 seems about right. Around 7% of jobs in STEM fields are filled by blacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If people want only test scores and grades then apply to Oxford/Cambridge or cal tech or schools in Asia. It has NEVER been the case that only grades and test scores are looked at to get into the top schools. The other issue is that not everyone can be a computer science, engineering, or pre-med major. Universities should be able to choose who they want in the way they want.

Asians are hugely underrepresented based on test scores and GPA - there would be twice as many at the top schools if they just went on grades and test scores. Anyone sane has to conclude that this indicates that something else is going on besides "they're not just looking at grades and test scores". The simplest explanation is racism.

"Universities should be able to choose who they want in the way they want." -- well sorry, it has been the law of the land for a long time that universities (like any other business) are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race or gender. I don't believe for a minute you think that it would be acceptable for a university to only admit white males because "they should be able to choose who they want in the way they want". Why is discrimination against Asians acceptable to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

cute story - did you also call it the China Flu?

[Anonymous]

Asians are hugely underrepresented based on test scores and GPA - there would be twice as many at the top schools if they just went on grades and test scores.

But they don't just go on just grades and test scores, and never have.

Anyone sane has to conclude that this indicates that something else is going on besides "they're not just looking at grades and test scores". The simplest explanation is racism.

No, that is not true that it is the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is the one they give, which is easily understood and verified. That they are seeking representative balance within races so they can build the class they want.

"Universities should be able to choose who they want in the way they want." -- well sorry, it has been the law of the land for a long time that universities (like any other business) are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race or gender.

And they don't, because seeking racial balance ensures all races are represented equally. If Asians suddenly didn't apply to Harvard one year their acceptance rate would shoot WAY UP, regardless of the fact that they are Asian. This is why it is not racist.

I don't believe for a minute you think that it would be acceptable for a university to only admit white males because "they should be able to choose who they want in the way they want". Why is discrimination against Asians acceptable to you

It isn't acceptable to me. This just isn't it.

[Anonymous]

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Can you explain how Asian Americans can claim discrimination in college admissions but are overrepresented on most college campuses relative to their U.S. population?

Easy. If they are 30% of the elite college population but would be 60% on the basis of merit, then they have been discriminated against.

Merit as defined by you, you mean.

What Harvard is way more interested in than GPA and test scores is who's going to be a future leader in a realm that will be sure to garner Harvard lots of attention and potentially money. Some of that comes from being smart and hard-working, but there's much more to it than that.

Asians are not being discriminated against.

Merit as defined by Harvard itself, actually.

So you think Asians, who excel in extracurriculars as well as grades, lack "future leadership potential"? They just don't have that extra je ne sais quoi on top of their intelligence and grades? The only reason to think this is... racism.

Asians are being discriminated against by racists just like you.

You should really be more judicious in your use of the term 'racist'. I was dating women of Asian descent and studying Asian languages because I love the culture before you were born probably.

Nothing in my statement said that I don't believe those with Asian ancestry can be leaders--you just inferred it incorrectly. But Harvard, which examines each application very carefully, chooses who they will make great leaders. Almost all are extremely bright and hard-working, but those that aren't have something beyond that. Students who aren't chosen, regardless of background, don't have as much of what they're looking for as those they do choose.

Is it possible that “what they’re looking for” is inherently racist against Asians? Sure maybe less of our kids play golf and squash and have experience speaking with other social elites, but what else is missing other than something that is a function of wealth and status (which some of these colleges are supposed to help with)? We are not against affirmative action but we are displeased with what is currently happening to Asians in admissions - when my daughter applied two years ago with perfect tests and grades, high level of leadership, international awards, etc. we were somewhat disappointed with the results. Most of the ivies didn’t accept her, and she also got some surprising rejections and waitlists from other schools she thought were “realistic.” And we don’t believe her writing or recommendations were the issue either - her teachers loved her, and her essays were reviewed several times by other teachers and professionals. Luckily she was able to get into UPenn, Dartmouth, Cornell, Duke, and Johns Hopkins among other good options but we were told she should be very competitive for the likes of Harvard, MIT, Princeton given her level of awards and leadership. She’s happily at Duke (and very involved with their Asian community) but now we’re being extra cautious for our son applying this year.

Your daughter got into 3 ivies and Duke, that’s still amazing!

The poster said she had "perfect tests and grades, high level of leadership, international awards, etc." How is it amazing that she got into the schools she did? What else is she supposed to have done better? Could a different last name have helped at all?

It is discouraging that she wasn't able to get into the school of her choice. She should have been able to get in anywhere with such credentials and glowing letters of recommendations. The fact that she did not is what is "amazing" to me here.

Here's some fun math for you:

- 27,000 or so HS in the USA
- About 15,000 freshmen at ivies each year

So, even if they took the #1 student at each high school in America, about 12,000 kids will get shut out.

Add Stanford and MIT and still about 9,000 shut out.

This doesn't account for athletics, or #2 students at HS that are better than other vals, and other hooked candidates.

The problem is not that underserving minorities are taking this kid's spot.

The problem is you don't understand math.

Here's some fun math for you. In 2021, the students who scored 1400 to 1600 on the SAT were:
45,146 Asian
103 Native American
1,685 Black
7,042 Hispanic
90 Hawaiian
50,839 White
6,046 Two or more races

Thus we would expect the proportions of each race at elite universities to be
Asians 45%
Whites 49%
Blacks 1.6%
Hispanics 6.8%
Two races 5.8%

But it's not even close to this. In elite universities it's more like
Asians 25%
Whites 35%
Blacks 8%
Hispanics 15%
Multiracial 6%

It should be obvious that Asians are very underrepresented, whites are somewhat underrepresented, and blacks and Hispanics are overrepresented. But you don't see this. The problem is you don't understand math. Or you're a racist. Or both.

You are not reading properly, and not seeing what post was responded to. You wasted all those words! I was replying to the person astounded that a single kid was only admitted to 3 ivies and duke, and not HYPSM, and was showing how that kid actually overcame the odds to great victory, rather than was stymied.

Not gonna get into the race argument with you, but WRT SAT you know even when it is used it is used as a qualifier, not a ranker. Once applicants are qualified they are equal, and admissions offices do not consider a 1580 student better than a 1560. Because that would be stupid.

It's also not the only criteria for admission, which you also know.

As for my personal opinion, I think the colleges should get to decide as long as they do not break the law. If Harvard wanted to be 100% Asian but did not break the law I would not care.

PP here. For what it’s worth, our daughter was waitlisted at both Harvard and Princeton but did not get off either waitlists, so she was “close.” But overall we were pleased that she got into 3 ivies and Duke still - Duke was one of her top 5 or so choices, and the only schools she would have picked over Duke are Harvard, Stanford, MIT, and maybe Princeton. She was waitlisted at Columbia and rejected from Yale, but would have picked Duke over both (she didn’t stay on the Columbia waitlist and did not care much for Yale).

Accepted to Duke, UPenn, Dartmouth, Cornell, Johns Hopkins and waitlisted at Harvard, Princeton, and Columbia? Share some tips with us! Your daughter is a rockstar and I promise not getting into Harvard won’t meaningfully affect her life! It sounds like she’s thriving at Duke!

Thank you for the kind words! She was very self-motivated so we never had to force her to do much, although we did always hold high standards for her. We tried to keep her busy as a child and help her stay engaged with productive activities (limits on screentime as well), and when she got into high school we hardly had to keep track of her! I think these habits have served her well at Duke too!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Asians are hugely underrepresented based on test scores and GPA - there would be twice as many at the top schools if they just went on grades and test scores.

But they don't just go on just grades and test scores, and never have.

Anyone sane has to conclude that this indicates that something else is going on besides "they're not just looking at grades and test scores". The simplest explanation is racism.

No, that is not true that it is the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is the one they give, which is easily understood and verified. That they are seeking representative balance within races so they can build the class they want.

"Universities should be able to choose who they want in the way they want." -- well sorry, it has been the law of the land for a long time that universities (like any other business) are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race or gender.

And they don't, because seeking racial balance ensures all races are represented equally. If Asians suddenly didn't apply to Harvard one year their acceptance rate would shoot WAY UP, regardless of the fact that they are Asian. This is why it is not racist.

I don't believe for a minute you think that it would be acceptable for a university to only admit white males because "they should be able to choose who they want in the way they want". Why is discrimination against Asians acceptable to you

It isn't acceptable to me. This just isn't it.

I am glad that you are not one of the posters that assumes that Asians are somehow deficient some unmeasurable way that justifies their exclusion. Instead, your support for AA rests in a similar place to the current law: "seeking racial balance ensures all races are represented equally."

Given this, how do you address the fact that, for any reasonable definition of college readiness, there is gross inequality? Should colleges lower the bar, and if so how far?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Article which counters the Asians as the " model minority" myth.

"More than two in three Asian Americans – 69% – support affirmative action, and that’s been the case for nearly a decade. Within that demographic, support is highest among Korean Americans and Asian Indian Americans (at least 80%) and lowest among Chinese Americans, 59% of whom say they favor such policies.

Despite that polling data and widespread Asian American activism in support of affirmative action, Students for Fair Admissions – whose conservative donors have engaged in a larger crusade targeting issues including voting rights – have sought to paint a different picture. They are, critics say, using Asian Americans as a wedge to incite infighting among communities of color."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2022/11/06/affirmative-action-case-harvard-admissions-asian-americans/10599572002/

In the Affirmative Action cases before the Supreme Court, the conservative Students For Fair Admissions (SFFA) - led by Ed Blum - is using the Asian Americans to keep URMs marginalized.

That sounds odd to me. I don't know any Asian who supports AA, myself included.

You must not be Indian American.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Asians are hugely underrepresented based on test scores and GPA - there would be twice as many at the top schools if they just went on grades and test scores.

But they don't just go on just grades and test scores, and never have. [You're missing the point. The "something else" factor that's not just grades and test scores is excluding roughly half the Asians who would otherwise get in. Are you really prepared to argue that half the Asian applicants lack leadership qualities, fine extracurriculars, and athletic talent? That sounds racist to me tbh.]

Anyone sane has to conclude that this indicates that something else is going on besides "they're not just looking at grades and test scores". The simplest explanation is racism.

No, that is not true that it is the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is the one they give, which is easily understood and verified. That they are seeking representative balance within races so they can build the class they want. [I already demonstrated that they are not seeking representative racial balance. Representative racial balance would mean that the races were represented in approximate proportion to their academic capabilities, but they don't and it's not even close. They're not just taking "slightly fewer" Asians to achieve racial balance, they are taking vastly fewer. This is easily understood and verified.]

"Universities should be able to choose who they want in the way they want." -- well sorry, it has been the law of the land for a long time that universities (like any other business) are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race or gender.

And they don't, because seeking racial balance ensures all races are represented equally. If Asians suddenly didn't apply to Harvard one year their acceptance rate would shoot WAY UP, regardless of the fact that they are Asian. This is why it is not racist. [They very clearly do discriminate against Asians and whites, and in favor of blacks and Hispanics. Simple math. Self-evidently racist.]

I don't believe for a minute you think that it would be acceptable for a university to only admit white males because "they should be able to choose who they want in the way they want". Why is discrimination against Asians acceptable to you

It isn't acceptable to me. This just isn't it. [There are none so blind as those who will not see.]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Asians are hugely underrepresented based on test scores and GPA - there would be twice as many at the top schools if they just went on grades and test scores.

But they don't just go on just grades and test scores, and never have.

Anyone sane has to conclude that this indicates that something else is going on besides "they're not just looking at grades and test scores". The simplest explanation is racism.

No, that is not true that it is the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is the one they give, which is easily understood and verified. That they are seeking representative balance within races so they can build the class they want.

"Universities should be able to choose who they want in the way they want." -- well sorry, it has been the law of the land for a long time that universities (like any other business) are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race or gender.

And they don't, because seeking racial balance ensures all races are represented equally. If Asians suddenly didn't apply to Harvard one year their acceptance rate would shoot WAY UP, regardless of the fact that they are Asian. This is why it is not racist.

I don't believe for a minute you think that it would be acceptable for a university to only admit white males because "they should be able to choose who they want in the way they want". Why is discrimination against Asians acceptable to you

It isn't acceptable to me. This just isn't it.

I am glad that you are not one of the posters that assumes that Asians are somehow deficient some unmeasurable way that justifies their exclusion. Instead, your support for AA rests in a similar place to the current law: "seeking racial balance ensures all races are represented equally."

Given this, how do you address the fact that, for any reasonable definition of college readiness, there is gross inequality? Should colleges lower the bar, and if so how far?

What is it you think those who are not admitted are missing out on, other than being able to brag to friends and family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Asians are hugely underrepresented based on test scores and GPA - there would be twice as many at the top schools if they just went on grades and test scores.

But they don't just go on just grades and test scores, and never have. [You're missing the point. The "something else" factor that's not just grades and test scores is excluding roughly half the Asians who would otherwise get in. Are you really prepared to argue that half the Asian applicants lack leadership qualities, fine extracurriculars, and athletic talent? That sounds racist to me tbh.]

Anyone sane has to conclude that this indicates that something else is going on besides "they're not just looking at grades and test scores". The simplest explanation is racism.

No, that is not true that it is the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is the one they give, which is easily understood and verified. That they are seeking representative balance within races so they can build the class they want. [I already demonstrated that they are not seeking representative racial balance. Representative racial balance would mean that the races were represented in approximate proportion to their academic capabilities, but they don't and it's not even close. They're not just taking "slightly fewer" Asians to achieve racial balance, they are taking vastly fewer. This is easily understood and verified.]

"Universities should be able to choose who they want in the way they want." -- well sorry, it has been the law of the land for a long time that universities (like any other business) are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race or gender.

And they don't, because seeking racial balance ensures all races are represented equally. If Asians suddenly didn't apply to Harvard one year their acceptance rate would shoot WAY UP, regardless of the fact that they are Asian. This is why it is not racist. [They very clearly do discriminate against Asians and whites, and in favor of blacks and Hispanics. Simple math. Self-evidently racist.]

I don't believe for a minute you think that it would be acceptable for a university to only admit white males because "they should be able to choose who they want in the way they want". Why is discrimination against Asians acceptable to you

It isn't acceptable to me. This just isn't it. [There are none so blind as those who will not see.]

Someone attended the David Duke school of “call any attempt to rectify system racism racist” school of public policy. No, offering more spots to Blacks and Hispanics is not racist, it’s a policy tool to address historical racism. You don’t like it because you hate the idea of fixing institutional racism in America.

- a middle aged white conservative