Asians are NOT the model minority: the Affirmative Action Chess Game

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
No, that is not true that it is the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is the one they give, which is easily understood and verified. That they are seeking representative balance within races so they can build the class they want.

Where have they said they are seeking this balance? I'm pretty sure they state that they are not engaged in quotas.

The Supreme Court was very skeptical of this wink-wink quota system 20 years ago, and they let it stand while saying they expected it to be gone in 25 years.
The colleges spend the intervening decades coming up with ways to implement quotas while pretending to listen to the court's dictates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

It is underrepresented compared to the number who should be there based on academic merit (and yes, extracurriculars too). If you don't get this, you're too dumb to be in this conversation.

To use your NBA analogy, right now the NBA is 73% black and 17% white. But let's say the NBA started recruiting more whites, Hispanics, and Asians - to increase diversity! - until the NBA was 50% black. With a 50% black NBA, blacks are still overrepresented relative to their proportion of the population. So by your logic they should be happy. But it should be obvious that the blacks, in that case, were discriminated against and underrepresented relative to their actual merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

It is underrepresented compared to the number who should be there based on academic merit (and yes, extracurriculars too). If you don't get this, you're too dumb to be in this conversation.

To use your NBA analogy, right now the NBA is 73% black and 17% white. But let's say the NBA started recruiting more whites, Hispanics, and Asians - to increase diversity! - until the NBA was 50% black. With a 50% black NBA, blacks are still overrepresented relative to their proportion of the population. So by your logic they should be happy. But it should be obvious that the blacks, in that case, were discriminated against and underrepresented relative to their actual merit.

Again with the stupid NBA analogy! Not applicable. Apples and oranges at best.

Players are only 38% of the NBA's employees, and I guarantee you that there is a representative balance across the league, as well as with the individual clubs, venues and others.

Stupid, stupid analogy! Stop it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

It is underrepresented compared to the number who should be there based on academic merit (and yes, extracurriculars too). If you don't get this, you're too dumb to be in this conversation.

To use your NBA analogy, right now the NBA is 73% black and 17% white. But let's say the NBA started recruiting more whites, Hispanics, and Asians - to increase diversity! - until the NBA was 50% black. With a 50% black NBA, blacks are still overrepresented relative to their proportion of the population. So by your logic they should be happy. But it should be obvious that the blacks, in that case, were discriminated against and underrepresented relative to their actual merit.

Again with the stupid NBA analogy! Not applicable. Apples and oranges at best.

Players are only 38% of the NBA's employees, and I guarantee you that there is a representative balance across the league, as well as with the individual clubs, venues and others.

Stupid, stupid analogy! Stop it!

+1 The stupidity of the analogy goes beyond what you said. Two totally different decision-making paradigms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

I hope you are not this dumb in real life if that example reflects what Asians are saying. Blacks represent about 13% of US population but represent over 73%. What if NBA says, no more than 50% black players in NBA (i.e., still over represented but unfairly reduced to 50% max based on skill and ability levels. Is that fair to blacks? I would say that not fair. Let skill/ability decide whether that player should or should not be in NBA. If it ends up being 90%, let it be 90% black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

It is underrepresented compared to the number who should be there based on academic merit (and yes, extracurriculars too). If you don't get this, you're too dumb to be in this conversation.

To use your NBA analogy, right now the NBA is 73% black and 17% white. But let's say the NBA started recruiting more whites, Hispanics, and Asians - to increase diversity! - until the NBA was 50% black. With a 50% black NBA, blacks are still overrepresented relative to their proportion of the population. So by your logic they should be happy. But it should be obvious that the blacks, in that case, were discriminated against and underrepresented relative to their actual merit.

Again with the stupid NBA analogy! Not applicable. Apples and oranges at best.

Players are only 38% of the NBA's employees, and I guarantee you that there is a representative balance across the league, as well as with the individual clubs, venues and others.

Stupid, stupid analogy! Stop it!

I don’t love the NBA analogy that’s frequently used, but your critique of it is even more ridiculous. Trying to loop in NBA team office and stadium workers with NBA players themselves and arguing that’s a “diverse environment” would seem to support the opposite of your position. That is, colleges should just be relying on the diversity of their non-student employees (which may very well have a larger share of underrepresented minorities) to create a diverse environment as opposed to applying discriminatory tactics (disproportionately impacting Asian applicants) to shape the student classes themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

It is underrepresented compared to the number who should be there based on academic merit (and yes, extracurriculars too). If you don't get this, you're too dumb to be in this conversation.

To use your NBA analogy, right now the NBA is 73% black and 17% white. But let's say the NBA started recruiting more whites, Hispanics, and Asians - to increase diversity! - until the NBA was 50% black. With a 50% black NBA, blacks are still overrepresented relative to their proportion of the population. So by your logic they should be happy. But it should be obvious that the blacks, in that case, were discriminated against and underrepresented relative to their actual merit.

Again with the stupid NBA analogy! Not applicable. Apples and oranges at best.

Players are only 38% of the NBA's employees, and I guarantee you that there is a representative balance across the league, as well as with the individual clubs, venues and others.

Stupid, stupid analogy! Stop it!

I don’t love the NBA analogy that’s frequently used, but your critique of it is even more ridiculous. Trying to loop in NBA team office and stadium workers with NBA players themselves and arguing that’s a “diverse environment” would seem to support the opposite of your position. That is, colleges should just be relying on the diversity of their non-student employees (which may very well have a larger share of underrepresented minorities) to create a diverse environment as opposed to applying discriminatory tactics (disproportionately impacting Asian applicants) to shape the student classes themselves.

the NBA analogy (and other pro sports teams analogies) is weird because if you think the 15 players on any NBA roster are the best 15 players they can get, you're probably wrong. Yes, they're NBA-caliber players of which there are many more than roster spots (sound familiar?). But, they are on the team for various reasons - some are definitively at the top of the heap and those 8-10 play regularly. Some may be rookies who aren't ready to play but the team has hopes on for the future. Some may be players on terrible contracts that they can't move. Some may be good locker room presence. Some are cheap filler because they need to fill the spot but don't have the cash. It's not always just about finding the best 15 players because you're creating a team and you have a lot of other considerations than who can beat who in 1x1.

In a way, it bears more similarities to creating a college class - you have a pool of students who can do the academic work at a school that is, conservatively, 2 to 3x the size of your class. You don't (because it's impossible) simply rank all 75,000 applications in order and take the top 2000. At some point, you have your pool of students who are university caliber and then you get to work. (and if you think this isn't fair, then the first thing you should eliminate is athletic recruiting).

[Anonymous]

College admission should not be a team sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

It is underrepresented compared to the number who should be there based on academic merit (and yes, extracurriculars too). If you don't get this, you're too dumb to be in this conversation.

To use your NBA analogy, right now the NBA is 73% black and 17% white. But let's say the NBA started recruiting more whites, Hispanics, and Asians - to increase diversity! - until the NBA was 50% black. With a 50% black NBA, blacks are still overrepresented relative to their proportion of the population. So by your logic they should be happy. But it should be obvious that the blacks, in that case, were discriminated against and underrepresented relative to their actual merit.

Again with the stupid NBA analogy! Not applicable. Apples and oranges at best.

Players are only 38% of the NBA's employees, and I guarantee you that there is a representative balance across the league, as well as with the individual clubs, venues and others.

Stupid, stupid analogy! Stop it!

I don’t love the NBA analogy that’s frequently used, but your critique of it is even more ridiculous. Trying to loop in NBA team office and stadium workers with NBA players themselves and arguing that’s a “diverse environment” would seem to support the opposite of your position. That is, colleges should just be relying on the diversity of their non-student employees (which may very well have a larger share of underrepresented minorities) to create a diverse environment as opposed to applying discriminatory tactics (disproportionately impacting Asian applicants) to shape the student classes themselves.

+1

Whoever initiated this stupid NBA analogy has no clue.

[Anonymous]

Yuck. Hate all
Of it. Sick of watching non Asian, non Caucasians hired and promoted hand over fist in my financial regulatory agency. Different standards for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

It is underrepresented compared to the number who should be there based on academic merit (and yes, extracurriculars too). If you don't get this, you're too dumb to be in this conversation.

To use your NBA analogy, right now the NBA is 73% black and 17% white. But let's say the NBA started recruiting more whites, Hispanics, and Asians - to increase diversity! - until the NBA was 50% black. With a 50% black NBA, blacks are still overrepresented relative to their proportion of the population. So by your logic they should be happy. But it should be obvious that the blacks, in that case, were discriminated against and underrepresented relative to their actual merit.

Again with the stupid NBA analogy! Not applicable. Apples and oranges at best.

Players are only 38% of the NBA's employees, and I guarantee you that there is a representative balance across the league, as well as with the individual clubs, venues and others.

Stupid, stupid analogy! Stop it!

I don’t love the NBA analogy that’s frequently used, but your critique of it is even more ridiculous. Trying to loop in NBA team office and stadium workers with NBA players themselves and arguing that’s a “diverse environment” would seem to support the opposite of your position. That is, colleges should just be relying on the diversity of their non-student employees (which may very well have a larger share of underrepresented minorities) to create a diverse environment as opposed to applying discriminatory tactics (disproportionately impacting Asian applicants) to shape the student classes themselves.

the NBA analogy (and other pro sports teams analogies) is weird because if you think the 15 players on any NBA roster are the best 15 players they can get, you're probably wrong. Yes, they're NBA-caliber players of which there are many more than roster spots (sound familiar?). But, they are on the team for various reasons - some are definitively at the top of the heap and those 8-10 play regularly. Some may be rookies who aren't ready to play but the team has hopes on for the future. Some may be players on terrible contracts that they can't move. Some may be good locker room presence. Some are cheap filler because they need to fill the spot but don't have the cash. It's not always just about finding the best 15 players because you're creating a team and you have a lot of other considerations than who can beat who in 1x1.

In a way, it bears more similarities to creating a college class - you have a pool of students who can do the academic work at a school that is, conservatively, 2 to 3x the size of your class. You don't (because it's impossible) simply rank all 75,000 applications in order and take the top 2000. At some point, you have your pool of students who are university caliber and then you get to work. (and if you think this isn't fair, then the first thing you should eliminate is athletic recruiting).

PP here - I agree that any specific NBA team itself isn’t the best 15 players that are available to them because the league makes it structurally impossible to aggregate all of the top talent on a single team through a variety measures (particularly the salary cap), although it’s fair to say that the NBA as a collective does represent the best 450 or so basketball players in the world in about as close to a pure meritocracy as you’ll find in society. As Rasheed Wallace said back in the day, “Ball don’t lie.”

In any event, yes, a particular NBA team is going to have players with different roles for different reasons in a way that’s similar to a college class… but the one massive difference is that the NBA team isn’t going to consider race. It’s perfectly laudable for a college to want a mix of math champions, athletes, musicians, artists, engineers, political activists and a whole slew of other characteristics to shape a class. At least to me, that’s all perfectly valid achievement-based reasons to admit students that go beyond GPAs and test scores. However, adding in race to that list of characteristics (and more importantly, it is showing that elite colleges have used race as a determining characteristic systematically as opposed to simply being one of many factors) is inherently different. It’s treated differently under the law in a way that providing an admissions advantage to a top athlete (or musician or artist or a whole slew of non-racial characteristics) isn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it considered a hardship that most Asian kids don't get to see many teachers, class fellows, sports coaches, police, people in power on national news etc who look like them?

? Asians see plenty of people who look like them in class. Most Asians live in big cities with a decent size Asian population. The rest, I agree, but you know the progressives won't care about that because Asian Americans as a whole are doing well, hence the "model minority". Yes, I know... there are many Asian Americans that aren't doing well, but the white progressive liberal establishment likes to ignore that fact.

that might be true, but we also know what the white right-wing, Trumpists think of us and that's markedly worse.

I think Asian-Americans are great! My college roommate in California was Japanese-American, my best buddy here in NoVA is Chinese-American. My buddy here, by the way, thinks Asians are getting screwed by the elite schools, which I agree with, and he's concerned about the impact on his kids when they apply to college.

Signed,

A white right-wing, Trumpist

how can an overrepresented group be discriminated against. Kinda like black men saying not enough black men in the NBA

Just like more black kids play basketball, more asian kids play academic ball, obviously both are going to excel and be over represented in their fields.

[Anonymous]

Diversity has huge value, whole society benefits from it. As a side effect some individuals benefit greatly and others experience disadvantage but overall everyone benefits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Diversity has huge value, whole society benefits from it. As a side effect some individuals benefit greatly and others experience disadvantage but overall everyone benefits.

That's a fine opinion, and I share it. But the important point is that it is subjective, and colleges should be allowed to decide if they feel this is necessary achieve their mission, as long as they do not break the law.