Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

Women have a right to be out in the world. To put us in a position where we must accept all social interactions from everyone in a public space or stay at home is to tell us that our bodies and attention and time belong to others unless we cloister ourselves away from the world.

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others - I would like to dress as I please without having to worry whether I am too slutty or inviting someone to touch me, I would like to sit in a public restaurant and work without having to entertain others, I would like to be able to ignore or say no to others who interact with me without having to do the emotional labour of having to calculate what is the Goldilocks no (not too soft, not too hard). In short, I would like to walk freely in the world.

I'm the PP you are responding to. I do not accept all social interactions from everyone, nor do I feel I am doing emotional labor for others. I'm friendly to friendly people, and if someone is talking to me in a way I don't like- male or female-I don't have a problem being unfriendly. I am not in the least bit worried about hurting the feelings of some random jerk I will never see again.

I do see public space as by definition space in which I will interact with other people. Like any group of people on earth, some of them will be nice and some will be jerks, some will be chatty and some loners, some will be attracted to me and some won't. If I don't feel like interacting or dealing with a random sampling of human nature, I stay home in solitary splendor or hang out with family and friends whose personalities and behavior I know and enjoy. And I don't feel cloistered at all.

It is interesting that so many women feel so differently though, and it makes me wonder why I am different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

I'm the poster you're responding to.

Fine, you don't like the coffee shop or bar example. I personally find sitting in such a place and enjoying a drink of some kind while reading to be relaxing and mellow. Your mileage may vary, obviously. In my experience, however, a woman sitting alone somewhere - anywhere - is an open invitation in a way that a man sitting alone just isn't. This has happened to me at airports, while sitting by myself near the gate waiting to board. It's happened to me in line at the grocery store. It's happened to me in the elevator of my office building. In my observation, that sort of thing doesn't happen to men. The last time I was at a bar alone with a book (which in your view means I should expect to be talked to) waiting for a friend to join me for happy hour, there was a man sitting a few seats away, also by himself. In the 30 minutes I was waiting for my friend, two men approached me. Zero people of any sex approached the man sitting alone.

As for complaining about people talking to them, I guess we will just have to disagree. Being in public doesn't mean that you are open to all public interactions. Yes, you can just shut it down, and it's not a difficult concept to pick up. I learned the same lessons you did as a teenager. My point is that if the men of the world would consider that maybe that woman sitting alone or that teenage girl on the bus or whoever does not want to talk to them and then decided NOT to try to strike up a conversation with a strange woman, that would also address the problem.

At the end of the day, because we live in a social environment, yes, I expect people to talk to other people in public. But the attitude of a lot of men is that women should be flattered that they are getting attention, that women who are uncomfortable with strangers talking to them in public are damaged or overly sensitive, etc. is pretty entitled imho.

I'm the same poster, responding back. Ok, I can see that men don't get spoken to at the same rate as women in public, and that's not fair. My mom's favorite saying was "Life is not fair" so maybe I'm too accepting of life's iniquities?

Can I ask though, how you can find sitting in a public space reading both relaxing and a source of constant harassment at the same time? Is it the physical space, interior decoration, drink selection, etc that you enjoy, but minus any people? Maybe it's because I can't concentrate in public and do all my work at home or office that I can't relate to this feeling of constant harassment? I'm really curious why I seem to feel so differently than most of the women posting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

I'm the poster you're responding to.

Fine, you don't like the coffee shop or bar example. I personally find sitting in such a place and enjoying a drink of some kind while reading to be relaxing and mellow. Your mileage may vary, obviously. In my experience, however, a woman sitting alone somewhere - anywhere - is an open invitation in a way that a man sitting alone just isn't. This has happened to me at airports, while sitting by myself near the gate waiting to board. It's happened to me in line at the grocery store. It's happened to me in the elevator of my office building. In my observation, that sort of thing doesn't happen to men. The last time I was at a bar alone with a book (which in your view means I should expect to be talked to) waiting for a friend to join me for happy hour, there was a man sitting a few seats away, also by himself. In the 30 minutes I was waiting for my friend, two men approached me. Zero people of any sex approached the man sitting alone.

As for complaining about people talking to them, I guess we will just have to disagree. Being in public doesn't mean that you are open to all public interactions. Yes, you can just shut it down, and it's not a difficult concept to pick up. I learned the same lessons you did as a teenager. My point is that if the men of the world would consider that maybe that woman sitting alone or that teenage girl on the bus or whoever does not want to talk to them and then decided NOT to try to strike up a conversation with a strange woman, that would also address the problem.

At the end of the day, because we live in a social environment, yes, I expect people to talk to other people in public. But the attitude of a lot of men is that women should be flattered that they are getting attention, that women who are uncomfortable with strangers talking to them in public are damaged or overly sensitive, etc. is pretty entitled imho.

Different poster here: I have no qualms with your final paragraph but the first and second paragraph just don’t make sense to me.

1. How is any man supposed to discern which women sitting alone in a public place are open to conversation and which are not? Men have to assume that every such woman is open or every such woman is closed because there is no real way to tell until they try.

2. Yes, men sitting alone in a public place don’t have to deal with the unsolicited approach from the opposite sex nearly as much as women. Isn’t that simply the natural outcome of mating structures where males have to compete for females?

Societies existed where your problem was solved and it involved mostly segregation of the sexes and mates being prearranged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A guy who is romantically interested in a woman at work really has no option other than to wait for the woman to explicitly express a reciprocal interest. The tough thing is that that very rarely happens—especially where average guys are involved.

Fortunately, there are like 3.5 billion women on the planet -- many of whom, presumably, are not co-workers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

I'm the poster you're responding to.

Fine, you don't like the coffee shop or bar example. I personally find sitting in such a place and enjoying a drink of some kind while reading to be relaxing and mellow. Your mileage may vary, obviously. In my experience, however, a woman sitting alone somewhere - anywhere - is an open invitation in a way that a man sitting alone just isn't. This has happened to me at airports, while sitting by myself near the gate waiting to board. It's happened to me in line at the grocery store. It's happened to me in the elevator of my office building. In my observation, that sort of thing doesn't happen to men. The last time I was at a bar alone with a book (which in your view means I should expect to be talked to) waiting for a friend to join me for happy hour, there was a man sitting a few seats away, also by himself. In the 30 minutes I was waiting for my friend, two men approached me. Zero people of any sex approached the man sitting alone.

As for complaining about people talking to them, I guess we will just have to disagree. Being in public doesn't mean that you are open to all public interactions. Yes, you can just shut it down, and it's not a difficult concept to pick up. I learned the same lessons you did as a teenager. My point is that if the men of the world would consider that maybe that woman sitting alone or that teenage girl on the bus or whoever does not want to talk to them and then decided NOT to try to strike up a conversation with a strange woman, that would also address the problem.

At the end of the day, because we live in a social environment, yes, I expect people to talk to other people in public. But the attitude of a lot of men is that women should be flattered that they are getting attention, that women who are uncomfortable with strangers talking to them in public are damaged or overly sensitive, etc. is pretty entitled imho.

Different poster here: I have no qualms with your final paragraph but the first and second paragraph just don’t make sense to me.

1. How is any man supposed to discern which women sitting alone in a public place are open to conversation and which are not? Men have to assume that every such woman is open or every such woman is closed because there is no real way to tell until they try.

2. Yes, men sitting alone in a public place don’t have to deal with the unsolicited approach from the opposite sex nearly as much as women. Isn’t that simply the natural outcome of mating structures where males have to compete for females?

Societies existed where your problem was solved and it involved mostly segregation of the sexes and mates being prearranged.

are you serious??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men talk to women sitting alone in public. Women who are sitting alone might as well have a big "OPEN" sign over their heads. Do you know what it's like to be a woman who goes to a bar at happy hour and sits alone, at the bar, with a drink and a book? You can't read that book. It doesn't even matter if you're not particularly attractive. At least one man will approach you and try to strike up a conversation.

I am a woman and a new poster. Why on earth would any person (man or woman) go to a bar or coffee shop or public place if he or she doesn't want to interact with people? The definition of a public place is a place where people interact with each other. If you do not want anyone to talk to you, then stay home or in your office or take your coffee to a private place or sit in your car. I am a 40-something fairly attractive woman and have had men (and women) strike up conversations with me in public since I was about 13 years old. Sure, it took me a few years to learn to shut down unwanted flirting, but if I am in public then people are going to talk to me. This is not a difficult concept to pick up. If I want to be left alone, I stay at home! If I want to interact with people, I go to a bar or coffee shop! I really cannot understand women who spend hours in public places by choice and then complain about people talking to them.

I'm the poster you're responding to.

Fine, you don't like the coffee shop or bar example. I personally find sitting in such a place and enjoying a drink of some kind while reading to be relaxing and mellow. Your mileage may vary, obviously. In my experience, however, a woman sitting alone somewhere - anywhere - is an open invitation in a way that a man sitting alone just isn't. This has happened to me at airports, while sitting by myself near the gate waiting to board. It's happened to me in line at the grocery store. It's happened to me in the elevator of my office building. In my observation, that sort of thing doesn't happen to men. The last time I was at a bar alone with a book (which in your view means I should expect to be talked to) waiting for a friend to join me for happy hour, there was a man sitting a few seats away, also by himself. In the 30 minutes I was waiting for my friend, two men approached me. Zero people of any sex approached the man sitting alone.

As for complaining about people talking to them, I guess we will just have to disagree. Being in public doesn't mean that you are open to all public interactions. Yes, you can just shut it down, and it's not a difficult concept to pick up. I learned the same lessons you did as a teenager. My point is that if the men of the world would consider that maybe that woman sitting alone or that teenage girl on the bus or whoever does not want to talk to them and then decided NOT to try to strike up a conversation with a strange woman, that would also address the problem.

At the end of the day, because we live in a social environment, yes, I expect people to talk to other people in public. But the attitude of a lot of men is that women should be flattered that they are getting attention, that women who are uncomfortable with strangers talking to them in public are damaged or overly sensitive, etc. is pretty entitled imho.

I'm the same poster, responding back. Ok, I can see that men don't get spoken to at the same rate as women in public, and that's not fair. My mom's favorite saying was "Life is not fair" so maybe I'm too accepting of life's iniquities?

Can I ask though, how you can find sitting in a public space reading both relaxing and a source of constant harassment at the same time? Is it the physical space, interior decoration, drink selection, etc that you enjoy, but minus any people? Maybe it's because I can't concentrate in public and do all my work at home or office that I can't relate to this feeling of constant harassment? I'm really curious why I seem to feel so differently than most of the women posting.

Np and woman. I agree with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A guy who is romantically interested in a woman at work really has no option other than to wait for the woman to explicitly express a reciprocal interest. The tough thing is that that very rarely happens—especially where average guys are involved.

Fortunately, there are like 3.5 billion women on the planet -- many of whom, presumably, are not co-workers.

enjoy staying single.

[Anonymous]

Rule of thumb to MRA guys: if you feel that you must interrupt a woman minding her own business in public, in order to compete for her as a fertile resource, you’re probably going to lose to an alpha anyway, so best to leave her alone and save yourself the trouble.

[Anonymous]

People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

[Anonymous]

How am I going to hook up without aggressively pursuing people who have not chosen to be in close proximity to me? I don't have many friends because I'm an abrasive asshole who turns every social interaction into a competition. The friends I do have are all dudes. And the friends they have are all dudes as well because we don't much like women other than for sex.

Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rule of thumb to MRA guys: if you feel that you must interrupt a woman minding her own business in public, in order to compete for her as a fertile resource, you’re probably going to lose to an alpha anyway, so best to leave her alone and save yourself the trouble.

This and if she is attractive, she is likely spoken for -so to speak.

[Anonymous]

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse...

PSA - when you sprinkle your posts with personal insults like “obtuse” “MRA” etc, you lose all moral authority or credibility. Quite frankly, you come across as a complete asshole, and that makes me want to do the opposite of whatever you’re suggesting. HTH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

You could more simply and honestly say: “unattractive guys need not apply”.