Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Ok I’ll share one.
Guy acquaintance. All I know about him is name, that he has been on a date with my roommate, and one time he invited himself on a night out to dinner and a play with a group of friends. Aight, cool, he came along. Fine. Oh, also that he had celiac disease.

He called me one night to ask me on a date. My internal reaction was, “ugh, hmmmmmm.” I didn’t especially want to go out on a date with him. Personally, I had just gotten out of a really deep-in-love relationship that just didn’t work in the end. ‘The one that got away’ type of thing.

So I’m lukewarm, if that, about the guy calling. But I also want to be kind, and possibly give him a chance. Sidenote: I also dont especially want to do a weekend date, because in our small college town, a lot of people you know will see you out. I didn’t want people to think we’re a couple, so I was preferring a weeknight where the nightlife is slower.....

All of these thoughts in about 5 seconds!

So I tell him yes. He asks about Friday, and I say, ‘actually, I’m free on Wednesday or Thursday. Would that work?’

Him: “why can’t you go on Friday?”
[me getting first red flag]
Me: [lying] “I have a big assignment due Monday, and I know I’ll be spending the whole weekend on it.”
Him: “really. That’s weird. I think you’re lying.”
[huge red flag waving. And yes I did lie. However, what’s the big deal anyway. I said yes, but that the weekend wasn’t good. Why is it his business? And how conversationally awkward do you have to be to push someone on this?! In my estimation it was being polite but also standing up for my own wants without being brutally honest.]
Me: “ummmm....you’ve just said I’m lying. It’s none of your business. And I’ve said I can go another time. But you know what? Now, I don’t want to go.”

He started saying something that at that point I couldn’t even comprehend. It was like a combination of apologetic but also anger. All I could say is something like, “why would you even WANT to go out with someone who you think is lying to you?”

I didn’t hang up on him. But abruptly said bye.

I felt harassed by the situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If you truly cannot think of a way to be a social person in the world/your office without making sexual or appearance-related comments to or about your colleagues, I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that difficult.

So let's be very clear: Your true and honest advice to men is that they should never make any "appearance-related comments" to anyone in the world/office? I assume you'd exclude my wife and daughters from that broad rule, but would you exclude anyone else?

Please don't dodge the question again by calling me "obtuse" or otherwise ducking. Please answer the question clearly: Are you saying that men should simply never offer any comment - no matter how innocuous and innocent they might consider it - to any other person?

You say "It's really not that difficult," but I'm wondering if you truly are suggesting all men follow such a broad guideline. Interested to hear if you'll stand by what you wrote or not.

Yes, I think it's a good rule of thumb not to comment on your colleague's appearance unless you are absolutely certain they won't mind. How hard is that? There's a huge range of other small talk you can make. And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut. Commenting on appearance is something between intimates, not coworkers.

Let's be crystal clear though - your post did not limit it to colleagues, but rather encompassed everyone in the "world." If you view really is that no appearance-related comments should ever be made, I want you to say that directly and clearly. The only limitation I hear from you is for "intimates" which I take to mean family or very close friends. Is that really what you're saying?

Also, I'm curious if you think the same "rule" applies to women commenting on men's appearance, or women commenting on women's appearance. I pretty routinely hear female colleagues compliment one another's appearance. My wife will pretty routinely compliment both women and men at the market or at restaurants if she likes their hair/jewelry/clothes. People always appear to respond positively, but maybe they secretly loathe us both. Should I tell my wife many people on DCUM think her comments are inappropriate?

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.

Yes, if you relentlessly comment on someone's appearance, they might loathe you. It's less fraught for women commenting about other women, but that can get obnoxious too.

And yes, this applies to "the world" and not just as work (although it's more important at work). Keep your comments on appearance to friends and family.

[Anonymous]

And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut.

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.

18:21 responding to my own comment to make sure the context is complete.

Just so we're clear, I'm the PP who posted many pages ago that I'm much freer with my compliments of male co-workers than female co-workers. I'd readily compliment Fred on his 'tache, his shoes, his pants, his tie, his weight loss, his haircut, etc. For me, because of concern about workplace standards, I essentially refuse to acknowledge female co-workers exist below the neck. I don't look at them below the neck, and I never comment in any way on anything below the neck. I'll compliment a female co-worker's new haircut and maybe her earrings, but nothing else appearance-wise.

I know you and some others want to paint me as some obtuse lech. In reality, I'm a social guy who thinks the world is a better place when people feel good about themselves. So I hand out compliments and kind words constantly. Most of the compliments are about how people handle projects or other things, but I'm not shy about complimenting appearances either. Friendly comments like that are just how my mother raised me.

[Anonymous]

Open your mind to the idea that people don’t need compliments about their appearance to feel good about themselves.
They can feel good about themselves because
1. They are a great, hardworking person
2. They already like what they are wearing. They chose it.

[Anonymous]

Yes, if you relentlessly comment on someone's appearance, they might loathe you. It's less fraught for women commenting about other women, but that can get obnoxious too.

And yes, this applies to "the world" and not just as work (although it's more important at work). Keep your comments on appearance to friends and family.

OK, but "relentlessly" is your word, not mine. I'm saying my wife will tell the lady behind the counter at the liquor store that she likes her glasses; I'll tell the 60-year-old woman at the corner market I like her fancy nail polish while she's ringing up my order. If I see some guy with a cool pair of shoes, I'll tell him. If we're on Metro near a cute baby, I might say "hey, cute baby!". But no one's "relentlessly" harassing any one person with compliments.

I appreciate your candor. Do you really follow that rule yourself? Absolutely no appearance-related comments about anyone except friends and family? I find that mind-boggling and perhaps a little sad, quite frankly.

[Anonymous]

I would like to walk in the world without doing emotional labor for others

For God's sake people, if you walk into a Starbucks and see a woman in emotional labor, don't talk to her! She's busy giving birth to hyperbole.

I would like to walk freely in the world.

The thing about the world is: wanting something out of it doesn't make it happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, if you relentlessly comment on someone's appearance, they might loathe you. It's less fraught for women commenting about other women, but that can get obnoxious too.

And yes, this applies to "the world" and not just as work (although it's more important at work). Keep your comments on appearance to friends and family.

OK, but "relentlessly" is your word, not mine. I'm saying my wife will tell the lady behind the counter at the liquor store that she likes her glasses; I'll tell the 60-year-old woman at the corner market I like her fancy nail polish while she's ringing up my order. If I see some guy with a cool pair of shoes, I'll tell him. If we're on Metro near a cute baby, I might say "hey, cute baby!". But no one's "relentlessly" harassing any one person with compliments.

I appreciate your candor. Do you really follow that rule yourself? Absolutely no appearance-related comments about anyone except friends and family? I find that mind-boggling and perhaps a little sad, quite frankly.

I was not pp, but I did post about not complimenting appearances. I’m trying to think back on any recent comments.
-I video chatted with my sister last week. The color of her shirt looked really pretty on her. I told her that. She said it wasn’t her favorite color, and I was like, “well the color is looking really good on you / in that light.”
-always tell my husband and my little baby. I don’t often tell my older kids, but if I do, I group it with other compliments. “Your hair is so pretty”, is my usual
For DD, and my DS is told how handsome he is enough that he voluntarily tells people, “I’m so cute” and “I’m so handsome”

I can’t think of other recent ones. Maybe a close friend wearing a striking dress. The recent one I remember well I consider slip ups. I said to one lady, “you’re looking really really pretty today.” And I felt stupid. Because she did look prettier than usual. But we might have both been thinking, “what about the other days?!”
Another time, and this one is terrible. I saw two friends taking together. One was wearing a gorgeous outfit. I couldn’t help but compliment her...oops. Realized I should compliment BOTH people standing there, right? So I look at my other friend, and I was like, “I like your purple top. It’s cute.” I mean, she was wearing the most plain-Jane outfit ever. (What I usually wear).

So though you say you’re trying to spread joy, how about positively commenting on other things? Exchange
“Pretty nails!” For “wow, you’re really a fast grocery checker-outer.”
“Nice Stache bro” for “how’s that old car coming along? You’re always great at fixing up old beaters into something really nice.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut.

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.

18:21 responding to my own comment to make sure the context is complete.

Just so we're clear, I'm the PP who posted many pages ago that I'm much freer with my compliments of male co-workers than female co-workers. I'd readily compliment Fred on his 'tache, his shoes, his pants, his tie, his weight loss, his haircut, etc. For me, because of concern about workplace standards, I essentially refuse to acknowledge female co-workers exist below the neck. I don't look at them below the neck, and I never comment in any way on anything below the neck. I'll compliment a female co-worker's new haircut and maybe her earrings, but nothing else appearance-wise.

I know you and some others want to paint me as some obtuse lech. In reality, I'm a social guy who thinks the world is a better place when people feel good about themselves. So I hand out compliments and kind words constantly. Most of the compliments are about how people handle projects or other things, but I'm not shy about complimenting appearances either. Friendly comments like that are just how my mother raised me.

'
'
You know what's not friendly? Not listening.

PEOPLE.DO.NOT.ALWAYS.WELCOME.COMMENTS.ABOUT.THEIR.BODIES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, if you relentlessly comment on someone's appearance, they might loathe you. It's less fraught for women commenting about other women, but that can get obnoxious too.

And yes, this applies to "the world" and not just as work (although it's more important at work). Keep your comments on appearance to friends and family.

OK, but "relentlessly" is your word, not mine. I'm saying my wife will tell the lady behind the counter at the liquor store that she likes her glasses; I'll tell the 60-year-old woman at the corner market I like her fancy nail polish while she's ringing up my order. If I see some guy with a cool pair of shoes, I'll tell him. If we're on Metro near a cute baby, I might say "hey, cute baby!". But no one's "relentlessly" harassing any one person with compliments.

I appreciate your candor. Do you really follow that rule yourself? Absolutely no appearance-related comments about anyone except friends and family? I find that mind-boggling and perhaps a little sad, quite frankly.

I very rarely compliment people on their appearances. I did ask a coworker today where she got her blazer. That's about it. I don't assume people need me to validate their sartorial choices ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same answer when it's a 27 year old female lawyer inviting out a 25 year old male paralegal? Is it harassment the first time she asks him out? Or just the second time?

It's likely not harassment by the legal definition. But it's rude and invasive after the second time. And most people with social skills would be able to assess whether the person was truly interested, or brushing them off, after the first invite.

See, this is where it gets frustrating for men reading here. When people were assuming the scenario was an older male lawyer asking out a young female paralegal, most were ready to pillory him immediately. But when it's a female lawyer, and they're both roughly the same age, the response changes. Now this PP is making clear it's not actually harassment. And it's only rude and invasive after the second time (so the third time she asks him out??).

My point is not to defend pigs like Bill O'Reilly or Matt Lauer, or any other woman or man who abuses her power to coerce relationships. I'm just saying that it paints with too broad and unrealistic a brush to insist that the difference between courtship and harassment is obvious. In the real world, it's not obvious at all. Signals get crossed; people are not clear about their intentions. People also want attention from some, and not from others. If a person I consider attractive strikes up a conversation while I'm reading at a coffee shop, I'm going to be flattered. But if a person I consider annoying strikes up a conversation, I'm irritated. It's not about the interruption or about the location, but rather about my changing interest.

You are being willfully obtuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut.

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.

18:21 responding to my own comment to make sure the context is complete.

Just so we're clear, I'm the PP who posted many pages ago that I'm much freer with my compliments of male co-workers than female co-workers. I'd readily compliment Fred on his 'tache, his shoes, his pants, his tie, his weight loss, his haircut, etc. For me, because of concern about workplace standards, I essentially refuse to acknowledge female co-workers exist below the neck. I don't look at them below the neck, and I never comment in any way on anything below the neck. I'll compliment a female co-worker's new haircut and maybe her earrings, but nothing else appearance-wise.

I know you and some others want to paint me as some obtuse lech. In reality, I'm a social guy who thinks the world is a better place when people feel good about themselves. So I hand out compliments and kind words constantly. Most of the compliments are about how people handle projects or other things, but I'm not shy about complimenting appearances either. Friendly comments like that are just how my mother raised me.

'
'
You know what's not friendly? Not listening.

PEOPLE.DO.NOT.ALWAYS.WELCOME.COMMENTS.ABOUT.THEIR.BODIES.

P.S. People don't need your comments to feel good about themselves. I know you think you are doing some heroic service to the world, but really you're not. When you compliment people's appearance, you just reinforce the idea that appearances are important. They are not.

[Anonymous]

If men followed the Mike Pence Rule, none of this would be a problem. It cuts out all ambiguity and rules out the possibility of anyone getting the wrong idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut.

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.

18:21 responding to my own comment to make sure the context is complete.

Just so we're clear, I'm the PP who posted many pages ago that I'm much freer with my compliments of male co-workers than female co-workers. I'd readily compliment Fred on his 'tache, his shoes, his pants, his tie, his weight loss, his haircut, etc. For me, because of concern about workplace standards, I essentially refuse to acknowledge female co-workers exist below the neck. I don't look at them below the neck, and I never comment in any way on anything below the neck. I'll compliment a female co-worker's new haircut and maybe her earrings, but nothing else appearance-wise.

I know you and some others want to paint me as some obtuse lech. In reality, I'm a social guy who thinks the world is a better place when people feel good about themselves. So I hand out compliments and kind words constantly. Most of the compliments are about how people handle projects or other things, but I'm not shy about complimenting appearances either. Friendly comments like that are just how my mother raised me.

Just so we're clear, your manner is abrasive. If your actions are making the world a better place, then, by all means, keep on keeping on. But, you don't create the impression of a person who is all that receptive to feed back. So, it's entirely possible that you'd never realize it if your actions were making people's lives less pleasant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If men followed the Mike Pence Rule, none of this would be a problem. It cuts out all ambiguity and rules out the possibility of anyone getting the wrong idea.

Not everyone has a wife as good as Mrs. Pence.

[Anonymous]

A guy who is romantically interested in a woman at work really has no option other than to wait for the woman to explicitly express a reciprocal interest. The tough thing is that that very rarely happens—especially where average guys are involved.