If I had know this was the case, I probably wouldn't have married you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In part, I think it has to do with the different attitudes about sex between the genders. At least stereotypically, a woman could walk into a bar, announce "I want to have sex with a man" and have some takers. For a guy to get laid, generally the woman has to think he's something special. (Not always how it works in practice, of course). When a woman starts having sex with you regularly and marries you, she's showing you, "Hey, I think you're something special." When she stops having sex with her DH, the message is, "I no longer think you're something special" (sometimes with an extra helping of, "but keep helping with the finances and children anyway.")

Interesting. I'll have to ask DH about that. It's not our intent, you know? Really, it isn't. Most of us anyway. It wasn't for me.

When I'm thinking rationally, I understand that my wife not wanting to have sex with me isn't about me. (Except sometimes it is - adding to the confusion.) But with me (and a lot of guys, I think - a lot of women too, probably) sex isn't tied into the more rational parts of the brain. So, there is the emotional sadness of feeling rejected (even if you aren't, in fact, being rejected) coupled with a bit of isolation in that you know you're not allowed to seek affirmation through sex elsewhere. (Bit of a mixed message - "sex isn't important unless you try to have it with someone else.")

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Did you miss the part where I mentioned all of the times I had planned evenings out for us and arranged babysitting? Often to do things I expressly know DH enjoys? Or is making my husband feel special just about giving him regular BJ's in your esteemed opinion?

You don't know shit about me, bitch, and you are one to point fingers at me about being THAT type of woman.

Did your husband want to go out all those times? As in was going out an un-met need of his? Did your DH reject your sexual advances before you did all of these things for him? Woudl DH still have frequent sex with you if you never did do all those things?

Okay fine, fuck you. I am a bitch because I do not think that maintaining our relationship is 100% about sex. You happy now?

No, really. Those were some valid questions supporting your case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Hi, OP. Me again. Can you explain something to me? Why do men feel personally rejected when we don't want sex? I can't speak for your wife, but in my case there is NO ONE that I would go for when I don't want it. Like, George Clooney could be naked in my bedroom and I'd be all "George, go the fuck home." For me, I had the hardest time convincing DH that it's not that I don't want sex with YOU, it's that I just don't want sex right now, period. It seems like you guys really internalize this as a self esteem thing. Maybe HD women feel the same way, IDK.

And when that line is used all the time? What then?

I've covered this above with what worked for us. I'm not in your marriage, so I can't say. I am not a marriage therapist. Get one, maybe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In part, I think it has to do with the different attitudes about sex between the genders. At least stereotypically, a woman could walk into a bar, announce "I want to have sex with a man" and have some takers. For a guy to get laid, generally the woman has to think he's something special. (Not always how it works in practice, of course). When a woman starts having sex with you regularly and marries you, she's showing you, "Hey, I think you're something special." When she stops having sex with her DH, the message is, "I no longer think you're something special" (sometimes with an extra helping of, "but keep helping with the finances and children anyway.")

Interesting. I'll have to ask DH about that. It's not our intent, you know? Really, it isn't. Most of us anyway. It wasn't for me.

When I'm thinking rationally, I understand that my wife not wanting to have sex with me isn't about me. (Except sometimes it is - adding to the confusion.) But with me (and a lot of guys, I think - a lot of women too, probably) sex isn't tied into the more rational parts of the brain. So, there is the emotional sadness of feeling rejected (even if you aren't, in fact, being rejected) coupled with a bit of isolation in that you know you're not allowed to seek affirmation through sex elsewhere. (Bit of a mixed message - "sex isn't important unless you try to have it with someone else.")

I hear you. I don't know, women are complicated. I'm sorry. I got a sense of what you are saying in our hash outs and it hurts me to know that, but it's not intentional. In my case I am a really bad faker and I feel like me faking that I'm into would be more hurtful. And frankly having to fake it makes me feel used. Believe it or not I love my husband deeply, and I've been just as bewildered at my lack of drive post-kid. But I can't just flip it like a switch, so I need his help. It took him a long time to understand that "help" is not doing more laundry or engaging in foreplay. It's emotional, too. It's rebuilding my sense of us as a couple and getting to know each other again. (Yes, it felt like that. Fatherhood changed him too.) Like I said, for some of us motherhood does a number on our whole view of ourselves, and it can take a long time to right the ship (or accept that you have fundamentally changed and you're not changing back).

Can you tell her this stuff? Have you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Did you miss the part where I mentioned all of the times I had planned evenings out for us and arranged babysitting? Often to do things I expressly know DH enjoys? Or is making my husband feel special just about giving him regular BJ's in your esteemed opinion?

You don't know shit about me, bitch, and you are one to point fingers at me about being THAT type of woman.

Did your husband want to go out all those times? As in was going out an un-met need of his? Did your DH reject your sexual advances before you did all of these things for him? Woudl DH still have frequent sex with you if you never did do all those things?

Okay fine, fuck you. I am a bitch because I do not think that maintaining our relationship is 100% about sex. You happy now?

No, really. Those were some valid questions supporting your case.

Sorry, it sounded sarcastic to me. I don't know if he wanted to go out all those times. He sure seemed to enjoy himself, though. I wanted to go out, because I wanted to be together engaging in adult activity like we used to pre-kid. But I got resentful for a while b/c I was the only one putting energy into it. That coupled with nagging me for sex constantly just shut me down, to be honest. He is putting more effort in now and that helps. I need something to share with him and talk with him about besides taking care of the kid, paying bills, arranging pick up schedules, etc. Is that so crazy? I don't think it is.

[Anonymous]

To some extent, I've bought in to Athol Kay's "Married Man Sex Life" philosophies. He divides male characteristics into "alpha" and "beta" (which I know some around here dislike.) He says that guys have to strive for a good balance in order to be sexually attractive to their wives. When asked, the ladies will often tell you about the "beta" support that they need; but won't admit to or don't know that the "alpha" traits are also a critical component.

Be decisive. Stand up to her when she "fitness tests" you. Create some space. Improve your fitness. Improve your status. Dress well. Be the kind of guy other ladies take a second look at.

Sometimes the decisiveness is going to be in the form of taking the kids off her hands. Sometimes it's going to be in the form of telling her to put on something nice because you're taking her out. Sometimes it's going to be in the form of telling her when you'll be back from a night out with the guys.

There's a reason that Magic Mike and 50 Shades and the romance novels don't feature a lot of guys doing laundry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To some extent, I've bought in to Athol Kay's "Married Man Sex Life" philosophies. He divides male characteristics into "alpha" and "beta" (which I know some around here dislike.) He says that guys have to strive for a good balance in order to be sexually attractive to their wives. When asked, the ladies will often tell you about the "beta" support that they need; but won't admit to or don't know that the "alpha" traits are also a critical component.

Be decisive. Stand up to her when she "fitness tests" you. Create some space. Improve your fitness. Improve your status. Dress well. Be the kind of guy other ladies take a second look at.

Sometimes the decisiveness is going to be in the form of taking the kids off her hands. Sometimes it's going to be in the form of telling her to put on something nice because you're taking her out. Sometimes it's going to be in the form of telling her when you'll be back from a night out with the guys.

There's a reason that Magic Mike and 50 Shades and the romance novels don't feature a lot of guys doing laundry.

Hmm. There's something to this, especially the bolded part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You contradicted yourself here. You said "grow up!" is not good advice, but then you admitted for years you were passive aggressive! Do you know how childish, immature, and damaging passive aggressive behavior is in a marriage??? (Well obviously you do, you lived it).

Look, it sounds like you and your wife both had some growing up to do it, and did it. I'm in awe of that - really - my husband and I are just figuring that out now and it too YEARS of pain to uncover it all. So really, I admire both of you. But you've hit the nail on the head. It is about growing up, expressing your needs clearly, realizing the other person has their own set of issues that have nothing to do with you and everything to do with you, and vice versa. Sex in a long term relationship is so not just about sex. It is SO much more than high desire low desire.

Not really a contradiction, but perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. Wanting sex in the relationship isn't immature or childish. Sex isn't a frivolous, disposable part of marriage. I agree that being passive-aggressive about wanting sex is childish. My upbringing was probably typical in that the topic was not something one was encouraged to discuss openly. So that carried over to marriage, creating an inhibition against discussing it openly. And you're right, it was something I just had to get over.

For what it's worth, the passive-aggressive resentment phase didn't last for years. Maybe 6 months to a year. For the longest time, I just wrote off our limited sex life to the challenges of childbirth and raising little kids. Maybe I'm slow, but it was probably when the kids were both in school full time that I no longer felt like that was the whole story.

But that's my point. Not being able to talk about sex...is childish. It's not wrong, it's certainly not uncommon, but it's not the way to increase intimacy in a marriage. That was my only point. Not to accuse you of being childish, but pointing out that these issues are complex and drill down to a lot more than simply wanting to get off, or a physical need, or even a need for affection and connection. And that probably many couples have these issues. I mean, google marriage counselors in your area. You will find hundreds. These folks are in business for a reason, and if every married couple was having great sex, a lot of other crap would slide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
But that's my point. Not being able to talk about sex...is childish. It's not wrong, it's certainly not uncommon, but it's not the way to increase intimacy in a marriage. That was my only point. Not to accuse you of being childish, but pointing out that these issues are complex and drill down to a lot more than simply wanting to get off, or a physical need, or even a need for affection and connection. And that probably many couples have these issues. I mean, google marriage counselors in your area. You will find hundreds. These folks are in business for a reason, and if every married couple was having great sex, a lot of other crap would slide.

No, I get it. And you're right that I wasn't being mature when I was inhibited about talking about sex with my wife. However, I was trying to clarify that I was being critical of some of the other comments in this thread that seemed to indicate OP's desire for sex with his wife was somehow immature or childish and that he needed to grow up.

As far as my personal situation, once I figured out that my inhibitions about talking about sex were part of the problem, I got over them. Talking helped.

[Anonymous]

She's probably too sore after all the sex with her lover. He's bigger, ya know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But that's my point. Not being able to talk about sex...is childish. It's not wrong, it's certainly not uncommon, but it's not the way to increase intimacy in a marriage. That was my only point. Not to accuse you of being childish, but pointing out that these issues are complex and drill down to a lot more than simply wanting to get off, or a physical need, or even a need for affection and connection. And that probably many couples have these issues. I mean, google marriage counselors in your area. You will find hundreds. These folks are in business for a reason, and if every married couple was having great sex, a lot of other crap would slide.

No, I get it. And you're right that I wasn't being mature when I was inhibited about talking about sex with my wife. However, I was trying to clarify that I was being critical of some of the other comments in this thread that seemed to indicate OP's desire for sex with his wife was somehow immature or childish and that he needed to grow up.

As far as my personal situation, once I figured out that my inhibitions about talking about sex were part of the problem, I got over them. Talking helped.

PP of that post you responded to here, and totally agree, wanting to have sex with your spouse is not childish or immature!

Inhibitions can cause problems because we tend to take things personally. It took a few months of counseling for us to both realize, this is not just about the other person being a crappy husband/wife, but there are reasons behind actions that seem clueless, selfish, mean, etc. And for us, progress got made when you stop blaming the other person and seeing your part, and when you can actually sympathize with that person instead of blaming them or making it about you.

My husband and I both had issues talking about our needs and communicating about them in a healthy way. We for years thought that "working" toward or having to talk about sex meant you were missing the point - it was supposed to be fun and easy. But that really only works the first few years. Then the work of marriage has to kick in, and you have to realize what happens outside the bedroom affects the bedroom. And work on all that.

We have a long way to go. But we are trying. And are in a better place this year than last year. Sounds like you and your wife got to a very healthy place. I meant what I said, I admire you for that. I wish we had addressed these issues earlier, but we simply weren't ready and rather than regret it, I'm just trying to move forward and learn from our mistakes.

This forum has really helped me realize I'm not alone with these issues. And counseling has too. Our counselor has seen it all and is great about not judging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She's probably too sore after all the sex with her lover. He's bigger, ya know.

You're joking, but that's another issue that can mess with a marriage. Seemingly LD spouse just checks out of the marriage. Turns out, it's not that she doesn't want to have sex. She doesn't want to have sex *with you*. And the double standard can be appalling. She doesn't demand nearly as much from the guy she's having an affair with. He's just new and hasn't built up the resentments. Certainly he doesn't have to do the laundry or line up a sitter for date night. (Disclaimer: the affair thing works both ways and for lots of different reasons. And, if it's done without the blessing of the other spouse, it's pretty much always a cowardly betrayal.)

[Anonymous]

I know what you are going through op. But I think what you are going through is short term. I experienced a low sex drive after having my kids. Once I got my tubes tied and turned 33, I wanted it all the time. Of course my DH now has zero drive, and we do it maybe once a month. So you never know, you may find yourself on the other end of things in a few years. I would say to be patient with your wife and wait it out. Sex isn't everything, and I know that if my DH told me he just couldn't do it anymore, I would remain with him. He has been a wonderful father and husband.

[Anonymous]

Just to parse out a few of the issues, since they seem to be getting conflated:

- HD and LD partners being married is tough for both parties.

- LD partners will sometimes offer reasons why they are behaving in LD ways. They feel that they might be less LD if their Higher D partners changed in certain ways. (Question: How much less LD would those who are propounding this view be, were the spouse to do the things suggested here - more responsibility in the house, more money, more alpha, more laundry, more exercise, more money? This is a serious, not sarcastic, question.)

- LD partners wish their Higher D partners were more understanding about the reasons why their D is so L. They wish that their partners didn't emphasize sex so much.

- HD partners feel rejected and frustrated. HD partners sometimes feel manipulated and lied to.

- HDs feel that sex is an important part of marriage/life.

- LDs feel that sex is more optional.

- LDs feel very angry that their HD spouses still want H amounts of sex, when the LD spouse feels as if the HD spouse hasn't "earned" that sex.

It seems helpful to acknowledge which particular part of this issue is being addressed.

Issue to be resolved: How can HD and LD partners be happily married to each other? What is required? Has anyone worked that out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are we just passionate people, two "high drives" lucky enough to find each other? I'm sure our temperaments are part of it. But what is much more important, what is MOST important, is that we know what sex means: its purpose, its message, its profundity.
If you don't know what sex is all about, you're going to miss the mark, sometimes badly. You wouldn't put sand in your gas tank, and similarly disastrous consequences follow from misunderstanding how sex works and why it is designed the way it is.
What does sex mean to you, OP? What is its purpose? Apologies in advance if you've already shared this, but I need to know where you are coming from to try to help you get where you want to go.

Sex is feeling that I still have a place in this marriage besides the 2 kids. Sex is a release and I'm horny. Sex is me pleasing DW and watching her lose herself. Sex is connecting DW and I since there is no us time anymore with 2 kids. Sex (happening) means that I did not just suffer yet another rejection again.

OP? I assume that is you answering my question--I'm the PP you're responding to.

Thank you for answering. There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but not the whole truth.

First, because sex has objective meaning, independent of your personal perspective, your wife's perspective, anyone's perspective. It has a design, a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual design. It's designed perfectly. We are free to use it as intended or not, but when we misuse it, it becomes a powerful force that cause immense pain.

Second, you only mention emotional bonding and physical pleasure and mental connection. You don't say anything about a union of two souls, or, even more important, about the possibility of new human life.

Sex is about bonding, pleasure, AND babies. Sex is a renewal of your wedding vows, every time, and it needs to had the same aspects: free, total, faithful, and (potentially) fruitful. If you cut any of those aspects out, your sex life will suffer.

Because then it becomes a session of using one another, instead of giving of one selves. No one likes to be used, and usin another human being is a detriment to the user.

Before you dismiss my position as ridiculous, just think about it a little more. If you took away any of those attributes from your wedding vows, that would mess things up, wouldn't it? We humans are body and soul. We express ourselves through our bodies. What are you sayin to your wife when you make love to her? "I need this, and I am taking it from you"? Or "I love you, and I am giving all of myself to you, of my own free will, nothing held back, come what may, only you, for as long as I live, and I know you are doing the same in return"?

The way you described sex is more a description of masturbation. Sex is so, so, so much more. True sex is so profoundly awesome, you and your wife would want it every single chance you had if only you knew what it could be like.

Simply put, sex is a reflection of the Divine. It is the way new human life comes into being. It unites two separate people into one, and if they are healthy and it's the right day of the month, an entirely unique person can result. The creativity, vulnerability, intimacy, joy, comfort, pleasure, bliss, beauty...only possible when it is respected for its full, true meaning. Anything less is unsatisfying at best, grotesque at worst.

Theology of the body. Just look into it. There could be something to it, and look at where things stand right now? Not good? Why not at least consider that you don't have a full understanding of sex, and that once you do, you AND your wife will want to have it, all the time?