If I had know this was the case, I probably wouldn't have married you.

[Anonymous]

I'd add to the list that sometimes LDs feel frustrated/inadequate because they know their (lack of) drive is a source of problems in the marriage. They want to want to have sex more. But, if HD is being a jerk about it, that will increase the feelings of frustration and inadequacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are we just passionate people, two "high drives" lucky enough to find each other? I'm sure our temperaments are part of it. But what is much more important, what is MOST important, is that we know what sex means: its purpose, its message, its profundity.
If you don't know what sex is all about, you're going to miss the mark, sometimes badly. You wouldn't put sand in your gas tank, and similarly disastrous consequences follow from misunderstanding how sex works and why it is designed the way it is.
What does sex mean to you, OP? What is its purpose? Apologies in advance if you've already shared this, but I need to know where you are coming from to try to help you get where you want to go.

Sex is feeling that I still have a place in this marriage besides the 2 kids. Sex is a release and I'm horny. Sex is me pleasing DW and watching her lose herself. Sex is connecting DW and I since there is no us time anymore with 2 kids. Sex (happening) means that I did not just suffer yet another rejection again.

OP? I assume that is you answering my question--I'm the PP you're responding to.

Thank you for answering. There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but not the whole truth.

First, because sex has objective meaning, independent of your personal perspective, your wife's perspective, anyone's perspective. It has a design, a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual design. It's designed perfectly. We are free to use it as intended or not, but when we misuse it, it becomes a powerful force that cause immense pain.

Second, you only mention emotional bonding and physical pleasure and mental connection. You don't say anything about a union of two souls, or, even more important, about the possibility of new human life.

Sex is about bonding, pleasure, AND babies. Sex is a renewal of your wedding vows, every time, and it needs to had the same aspects: free, total, faithful, and (potentially) fruitful. If you cut any of those aspects out, your sex life will suffer.

Because then it becomes a session of using one another, instead of giving of one selves. No one likes to be used, and usin another human being is a detriment to the user.

Before you dismiss my position as ridiculous, just think about it a little more. If you took away any of those attributes from your wedding vows, that would mess things up, wouldn't it? We humans are body and soul. We express ourselves through our bodies. What are you sayin to your wife when you make love to her? "I need this, and I am taking it from you"? Or "I love you, and I am giving all of myself to you, of my own free will, nothing held back, come what may, only you, for as long as I live, and I know you are doing the same in return"?

The way you described sex is more a description of masturbation. Sex is so, so, so much more. True sex is so profoundly awesome, you and your wife would want it every single chance you had if only you knew what it could be like.

Simply put, sex is a reflection of the Divine. It is the way new human life comes into being. It unites two separate people into one, and if they are healthy and it's the right day of the month, an entirely unique person can result. The creativity, vulnerability, intimacy, joy, comfort, pleasure, bliss, beauty...only possible when it is respected for its full, true meaning. Anything less is unsatisfying at best, grotesque at worst.

Theology of the body. Just look into it. There could be something to it, and look at where things stand right now? Not good? Why not at least consider that you don't have a full understanding of sex, and that once you do, you AND your wife will want to have it, all the time?

I'm not OP. Some of what you say makes sense (not making sex about "I need this" or "I'm entitled to this" and "taking it from you"), but to the extent that your exposition is in essence a creed against contraception, it's not going to work for most people. Just accept that the vast majority of people cannot accept your version of the "full, true meaning of sex" if it creates a risk of pregnancy that is not acceptable for the couple at that point in their lives. And the world is so much better thanks to the use and availability of a variety of safe, reliable contraceptives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are we just passionate people, two "high drives" lucky enough to find each other? I'm sure our temperaments are part of it. But what is much more important, what is MOST important, is that we know what sex means: its purpose, its message, its profundity.
If you don't know what sex is all about, you're going to miss the mark, sometimes badly. You wouldn't put sand in your gas tank, and similarly disastrous consequences follow from misunderstanding how sex works and why it is designed the way it is.
What does sex mean to you, OP? What is its purpose? Apologies in advance if you've already shared this, but I need to know where you are coming from to try to help you get where you want to go.

Sex is feeling that I still have a place in this marriage besides the 2 kids. Sex is a release and I'm horny. Sex is me pleasing DW and watching her lose herself. Sex is connecting DW and I since there is no us time anymore with 2 kids. Sex (happening) means that I did not just suffer yet another rejection again.

OP? I assume that is you answering my question--I'm the PP you're responding to.

Thank you for answering. There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but not the whole truth.

First, because sex has objective meaning, independent of your personal perspective, your wife's perspective, anyone's perspective. It has a design, a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual design. It's designed perfectly. We are free to use it as intended or not, but when we misuse it, it becomes a powerful force that cause immense pain.

Second, you only mention emotional bonding and physical pleasure and mental connection. You don't say anything about a union of two souls, or, even more important, about the possibility of new human life.

Sex is about bonding, pleasure, AND babies. Sex is a renewal of your wedding vows, every time, and it needs to had the same aspects: free, total, faithful, and (potentially) fruitful. If you cut any of those aspects out, your sex life will suffer.

Because then it becomes a session of using one another, instead of giving of one selves. No one likes to be used, and usin another human being is a detriment to the user.

Before you dismiss my position as ridiculous, just think about it a little more. If you took away any of those attributes from your wedding vows, that would mess things up, wouldn't it? We humans are body and soul. We express ourselves through our bodies. What are you sayin to your wife when you make love to her? "I need this, and I am taking it from you"? Or "I love you, and I am giving all of myself to you, of my own free will, nothing held back, come what may, only you, for as long as I live, and I know you are doing the same in return"?

The way you described sex is more a description of masturbation. Sex is so, so, so much more. True sex is so profoundly awesome, you and your wife would want it every single chance you had if only you knew what it could be like.

Simply put, sex is a reflection of the Divine. It is the way new human life comes into being. It unites two separate people into one, and if they are healthy and it's the right day of the month, an entirely unique person can result. The creativity, vulnerability, intimacy, joy, comfort, pleasure, bliss, beauty...only possible when it is respected for its full, true meaning. Anything less is unsatisfying at best, grotesque at worst.

Theology of the body. Just look into it. There could be something to it, and look at where things stand right now? Not good? Why not at least consider that you don't have a full understanding of sex, and that once you do, you AND your wife will want to have it, all the time?

I'm not OP. Some of what you say makes sense (not making sex about "I need this" or "I'm entitled to this" and "taking it from you"), but to the extent that your exposition is in essence a creed against contraception, it's not going to work for most people. Just accept that the vast majority of people cannot accept your version of the "full, true meaning of sex" if it creates a risk of pregnancy that is not acceptable for the couple at that point in their lives. And the world is so much better thanks to the use and availability of a variety of safe, reliable contraceptives.

This is an interesting discussion.

Serious question for both of you -- if one partner trashes their body while the other does not, what happens insofar as theology of the body? Is it unfair to expect someone to renew their vows physically when only one party takes care of themselves physically? How much of a marital violation is that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are we just passionate people, two "high drives" lucky enough to find each other? I'm sure our temperaments are part of it. But what is much more important, what is MOST important, is that we know what sex means: its purpose, its message, its profundity.
If you don't know what sex is all about, you're going to miss the mark, sometimes badly. You wouldn't put sand in your gas tank, and similarly disastrous consequences follow from misunderstanding how sex works and why it is designed the way it is.
What does sex mean to you, OP? What is its purpose? Apologies in advance if you've already shared this, but I need to know where you are coming from to try to help you get where you want to go.

Sex is feeling that I still have a place in this marriage besides the 2 kids. Sex is a release and I'm horny. Sex is me pleasing DW and watching her lose herself. Sex is connecting DW and I since there is no us time anymore with 2 kids. Sex (happening) means that I did not just suffer yet another rejection again.

OP? I assume that is you answering my question--I'm the PP you're responding to.

Thank you for answering. There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but not the whole truth.

First, because sex has objective meaning, independent of your personal perspective, your wife's perspective, anyone's perspective. It has a design, a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual design. It's designed perfectly. We are free to use it as intended or not, but when we misuse it, it becomes a powerful force that cause immense pain.

Second, you only mention emotional bonding and physical pleasure and mental connection. You don't say anything about a union of two souls, or, even more important, about the possibility of new human life.

Sex is about bonding, pleasure, AND babies. Sex is a renewal of your wedding vows, every time, and it needs to had the same aspects: free, total, faithful, and (potentially) fruitful. If you cut any of those aspects out, your sex life will suffer.

Because then it becomes a session of using one another, instead of giving of one selves. No one likes to be used, and usin another human being is a detriment to the user.

Before you dismiss my position as ridiculous, just think about it a little more. If you took away any of those attributes from your wedding vows, that would mess things up, wouldn't it? We humans are body and soul. We express ourselves through our bodies. What are you sayin to your wife when you make love to her? "I need this, and I am taking it from you"? Or "I love you, and I am giving all of myself to you, of my own free will, nothing held back, come what may, only you, for as long as I live, and I know you are doing the same in return"?

The way you described sex is more a description of masturbation. Sex is so, so, so much more. True sex is so profoundly awesome, you and your wife would want it every single chance you had if only you knew what it could be like.

Simply put, sex is a reflection of the Divine. It is the way new human life comes into being. It unites two separate people into one, and if they are healthy and it's the right day of the month, an entirely unique person can result. The creativity, vulnerability, intimacy, joy, comfort, pleasure, bliss, beauty...only possible when it is respected for its full, true meaning. Anything less is unsatisfying at best, grotesque at worst.

Theology of the body. Just look into it. There could be something to it, and look at where things stand right now? Not good? Why not at least consider that you don't have a full understanding of sex, and that once you do, you AND your wife will want to have it, all the time?

9 kid lady? I always like your posts, very thoughtful. I don't always agree, but you always make me think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are we just passionate people, two "high drives" lucky enough to find each other? I'm sure our temperaments are part of it. But what is much more important, what is MOST important, is that we know what sex means: its purpose, its message, its profundity.
If you don't know what sex is all about, you're going to miss the mark, sometimes badly. You wouldn't put sand in your gas tank, and similarly disastrous consequences follow from misunderstanding how sex works and why it is designed the way it is.
What does sex mean to you, OP? What is its purpose? Apologies in advance if you've already shared this, but I need to know where you are coming from to try to help you get where you want to go.

Sex is feeling that I still have a place in this marriage besides the 2 kids. Sex is a release and I'm horny. Sex is me pleasing DW and watching her lose herself. Sex is connecting DW and I since there is no us time anymore with 2 kids. Sex (happening) means that I did not just suffer yet another rejection again.

OP? I assume that is you answering my question--I'm the PP you're responding to.

Thank you for answering. There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but not the whole truth.

First, because sex has objective meaning, independent of your personal perspective, your wife's perspective, anyone's perspective. It has a design, a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual design. It's designed perfectly. We are free to use it as intended or not, but when we misuse it, it becomes a powerful force that cause immense pain.

Second, you only mention emotional bonding and physical pleasure and mental connection. You don't say anything about a union of two souls, or, even more important, about the possibility of new human life.

Sex is about bonding, pleasure, AND babies. Sex is a renewal of your wedding vows, every time, and it needs to had the same aspects: free, total, faithful, and (potentially) fruitful. If you cut any of those aspects out, your sex life will suffer.

Because then it becomes a session of using one another, instead of giving of one selves. No one likes to be used, and usin another human being is a detriment to the user.

Before you dismiss my position as ridiculous, just think about it a little more. If you took away any of those attributes from your wedding vows, that would mess things up, wouldn't it? We humans are body and soul. We express ourselves through our bodies. What are you sayin to your wife when you make love to her? "I need this, and I am taking it from you"? Or "I love you, and I am giving all of myself to you, of my own free will, nothing held back, come what may, only you, for as long as I live, and I know you are doing the same in return"?

The way you described sex is more a description of masturbation. Sex is so, so, so much more. True sex is so profoundly awesome, you and your wife would want it every single chance you had if only you knew what it could be like.

Simply put, sex is a reflection of the Divine. It is the way new human life comes into being. It unites two separate people into one, and if they are healthy and it's the right day of the month, an entirely unique person can result. The creativity, vulnerability, intimacy, joy, comfort, pleasure, bliss, beauty...only possible when it is respected for its full, true meaning. Anything less is unsatisfying at best, grotesque at worst.

Theology of the body. Just look into it. There could be something to it, and look at where things stand right now? Not good? Why not at least consider that you don't have a full understanding of sex, and that once you do, you AND your wife will want to have it, all the time?

I'm not OP. Some of what you say makes sense (not making sex about "I need this" or "I'm entitled to this" and "taking it from you"), but to the extent that your exposition is in essence a creed against contraception, it's not going to work for most people. Just accept that the vast majority of people cannot accept your version of the "full, true meaning of sex" if it creates a risk of pregnancy that is not acceptable for the couple at that point in their lives. And the world is so much better thanks to the use and availability of a variety of safe, reliable contraceptives.

That's the thing--we live in a world in which contraception is assumed and a given. But humanity existed without it for 99.99% of our time. Sex meant bonding and babies (at least as a possibility) until very recently in human history.

But I don't want to get hung up on that, because most people can't get past it, not even to do a thought experiment. It's dismissed outright, immediately, as impossible and undesirable, so everything else gets ignored. So lets just stick with common ground.

Sex is a union of two persons who should be accepting one another freely, unconditionally, faithfully, no matter what life throws at them. That is more what I wanted OP to think about. Sex is an expression of love through the bodies of the spouses, so it speaks of the love that is there.

The "love" OP described sounded more like a session with Internet porn. Maybe just because OP spoke in frustration. But it is a chance for reflection.

This reverence for sex is hard to come by if it is not seen in its entirety. Anything short of free, total, faithful, and open is incomplete. From that incompletion comes a host of problems, depending on what is being shortchanged.

Even marriages where both spouses try to live the Theology of the Body can have very different sex drives at odds. People are who they are. But having an understanding of what sex is and how it works and why it is designed the way it is can help people love one another despite different temperaments and through stressful circumstances.

It honestly breaks my heart to see so much pain described on here all the time because spouses don't get sex--as in, they don't know why things are so hard. Why not try thinking outside of the box? ToB could be wrong, or it could be right. Taken as a whole, I can see why people would reject it, because they think it requires too much vulnerability and trust and letting go, but I don't think any sane person would say it does not sound ideal. At the very least, none of the problems constantly described here would be issues in the ToB universe.

I don't know if OP is still listening, but I hope he at least asks himself if he is really renewing his vows with his body when he is in bed with his wife.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, he sounds like he has needs that aren't being met. That doesn't make him an ass, it makes him human. OP, sit down and talk to your wife. Have open, non-hostile conversations about how both of you can come together to better meet family and maritial needs.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are we just passionate people, two "high drives" lucky enough to find each other? I'm sure our temperaments are part of it. But what is much more important, what is MOST important, is that we know what sex means: its purpose, its message, its profundity.
If you don't know what sex is all about, you're going to miss the mark, sometimes badly. You wouldn't put sand in your gas tank, and similarly disastrous consequences follow from misunderstanding how sex works and why it is designed the way it is.
What does sex mean to you, OP? What is its purpose? Apologies in advance if you've already shared this, but I need to know where you are coming from to try to help you get where you want to go.

Sex is feeling that I still have a place in this marriage besides the 2 kids. Sex is a release and I'm horny. Sex is me pleasing DW and watching her lose herself. Sex is connecting DW and I since there is no us time anymore with 2 kids. Sex (happening) means that I did not just suffer yet another rejection again.

OP? I assume that is you answering my question--I'm the PP you're responding to.

Thank you for answering. There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but not the whole truth.

First, because sex has objective meaning, independent of your personal perspective, your wife's perspective, anyone's perspective. It has a design, a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual design. It's designed perfectly. We are free to use it as intended or not, but when we misuse it, it becomes a powerful force that cause immense pain.

Second, you only mention emotional bonding and physical pleasure and mental connection. You don't say anything about a union of two souls, or, even more important, about the possibility of new human life.

Sex is about bonding, pleasure, AND babies. Sex is a renewal of your wedding vows, every time, and it needs to had the same aspects: free, total, faithful, and (potentially) fruitful. If you cut any of those aspects out, your sex life will suffer.

Because then it becomes a session of using one another, instead of giving of one selves. No one likes to be used, and usin another human being is a detriment to the user.

Before you dismiss my position as ridiculous, just think about it a little more. If you took away any of those attributes from your wedding vows, that would mess things up, wouldn't it? We humans are body and soul. We express ourselves through our bodies. What are you sayin to your wife when you make love to her? "I need this, and I am taking it from you"? Or "I love you, and I am giving all of myself to you, of my own free will, nothing held back, come what may, only you, for as long as I live, and I know you are doing the same in return"?

The way you described sex is more a description of masturbation. Sex is so, so, so much more. True sex is so profoundly awesome, you and your wife would want it every single chance you had if only you knew what it could be like.

Simply put, sex is a reflection of the Divine. It is the way new human life comes into being. It unites two separate people into one, and if they are healthy and it's the right day of the month, an entirely unique person can result. The creativity, vulnerability, intimacy, joy, comfort, pleasure, bliss, beauty...only possible when it is respected for its full, true meaning. Anything less is unsatisfying at best, grotesque at worst.

Theology of the body. Just look into it. There could be something to it, and look at where things stand right now? Not good? Why not at least consider that you don't have a full understanding of sex, and that once you do, you AND your wife will want to have it, all the time?

I'm not OP. Some of what you say makes sense (not making sex about "I need this" or "I'm entitled to this" and "taking it from you"), but to the extent that your exposition is in essence a creed against contraception, it's not going to work for most people. Just accept that the vast majority of people cannot accept your version of the "full, true meaning of sex" if it creates a risk of pregnancy that is not acceptable for the couple at that point in their lives. And the world is so much better thanks to the use and availability of a variety of safe, reliable contraceptives.

This is an interesting discussion.

Serious question for both of you -- if one partner trashes their body while the other does not, what happens insofar as theology of the body? Is it unfair to expect someone to renew their vows physically when only one party takes care of themselves physically? How much of a marital violation is that?

PP, that is an excellent question, because it illustrates a crucial point: sex is not an isolated activity. It is an expression of love of the WHOLE person--two whole people, actually. It is everything that makes a human being being given over to another human being.

So if one of the two persons is selfish, or lazy, or a pig, s/he is only going to have a damaged self to give--if they are capable of giving at all. Of course, we are all far from perfect, and unconditional love despite imperfections can be beautiful. But if one person is actively choosing vice over virtue consistently, s/he is not going to look very attractive to the spouse, and is not going to inspire awesome sex.

But that is why sex is so powerful. It is a reflection of self. It can elevate or degrade, inspire or disgust.

So if one spouse is narcissistic, unhelpful, critical, obnoxious, disrespectful...what will the sex be like? What is the sex reflecting?

Now, for physical issues...are they a reflection of poor character, or just time? Because if poor character is showing physically, that is falling short in the theology if the body. But if it is just csection scars or wrinkles or sags, then those things should still be lovable, even gorgeous.

Compassion and understanding can grow when faced with a spouse's imperfections showing up physically...but certainly, there could be a legitimate tipping point when the imperfections become an injustice, an offense against the other spouse. Where to draw the line is between the couple and God.

[Anonymous]

And yes, the Theology of the Body poster is C9BL. I just feel very passionately about a few things, birth being one of them, sex being another

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Come on now. I wouldn't have sex if she was in PAIN!!!! Sheesh. We've had sex twice since #2 arrived. Both times were painless!

Sorry, OP. I just don't believe this. About 90% of women I know had significant discomfort - even if not PAIN with capital letters - the first times they had sex after childbirth, and certainly if the sex is within the first 2-3 mos. (And I'm betting I've talked to about 2 dozen more ladies about this than you.) Either your DW doesn't feel like she can communicate this to you or you aren't willing to listen . "Painless"??? Whatever. You guys have serious issues.

OK, you point may be valid IF you are my DW. Are you DW?

I cried from the pain the first time we had sex after our first was born, and DH didn't even notice.
I was so appalled and felt so disgusted and angry I couldn't talk about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dude, can you wait it out and honor your spouse? Do you have ANY CLUE how having children affects a woman's sex drive? This happens to many, many women. We are more than vaginas, you know. Read up and you will know that for many women their sex drive comes back in their 40's once they are no longer caring for small children.

You sound like a total ass.

She sounds like an ass. She's not honoring him by at least trying to satisfy him.

Life is too short to eat Kmart candy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Come on now. I wouldn't have sex if she was in PAIN!!!! Sheesh. We've had sex twice since #2 arrived. Both times were painless!

Sorry, OP. I just don't believe this. About 90% of women I know had significant discomfort - even if not PAIN with capital letters - the first times they had sex after childbirth, and certainly if the sex is within the first 2-3 mos. (And I'm betting I've talked to about 2 dozen more ladies about this than you.) Either your DW doesn't feel like she can communicate this to you or you aren't willing to listen . "Painless"??? Whatever. You guys have serious issues.

OK, you point may be valid IF you are my DW. Are you DW?

I cried from the pain the first time we had sex after our first was born, and DH didn't even notice.
I was so appalled and felt so disgusted and angry I couldn't talk about it.

Divorce him

[Anonymous]

I love sex! I guess I would be considered lower D than my dh, but that doesn't mean I don't love sex. I just prefer really good sex, which means my desire has to have time to build up. It's all about meeting in the middle and being mature about things - how else can a marriage work?

[Anonymous]

"I don't know if OP is still listening, but I hope he at least asks himself if he is really renewing his vows with his body when he is in bed with his wife."

DW here. I just want to get laid. A lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So if he make the plans and hires the sitter, you're sure to put out that night? And if he makes the plans for every night, you're going to put out ever night right?

It would be a hell of a lot more likely, yes. And I am never putting out every single night. If DH expects that he should just go ahead and start an affair or divorce me now. Every night is not realistic for most people, freak.

This is the most honest answer you will ever get from the passive aggressive withholder. It's why all the "you need to change" and "it's just a bad time" and "things will get better" posters are liars, intentionally or not.

Your desire to have sex with the person to whom you pledged your life, foresaking all other, is your "problem."

They have no interest in, and therefore will never, change.

Freak.

[Anonymous]

DH recently told me that I was not performing my wife duties because I do not have sex with him enough. The fact is that I fell out of love with him a long time ago, can't stand him most of the time and have absolutely NO desire to have sex with him. Then I think I should maybe give him a BJ just so he won't bother me for sex but I don't want to do that either. I almost want him to have an affair so he will stop pestering me for sex.