is nose-to-wall timeout too harsh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

It does have firm boundaries sorry you're one of those who mistake responsive parenting for permissive parenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We used time outs (nose to the wall) before the kids were old enough to be embarrassed or old enough to go to their room by themselves. Usually only if we were too busy for active redirection but needed to stop the behavior. I don't think it harmed anyone. Certainly not abusive, but also not particularly effective for a 5 yo.

"Stop jumping off the couch please."
"No more jumping off the couch. Why don't you go do X?"
"If you jump off the couch again you will go to time out to calm down."
[2 min in time out to calm down]
"OK, remember we don't jump on furniture. Let's go do XX now." (Redirection)

It's child dependent, but I think a 2 year old is "old enough" to go to their room by themselves, at least for a short period and assuming the room is properly set up (kids shouldn't have things in their room that they need supervision with anyway).

And kids are "old enough" to be embarrassed as early as 2.5 (again, child dependent). I think any child capable of making a parent angry enough to try and punish with "nose to wall" is capable of feeling embarrassment.

With stairs and babygates, my kid had trouble making it upstairs to her room by herself until well after 3.5 yo, especially if upset.

My 2.5 yo certainly wasn't embarrassed and I wasn't angry. It was just a place to calm down. Staring at the wall removed distractions and was calming. Not that different than sending a kid to a fort or cubby hole to calm down, which is viewed as totally fine. I think you're importing feelings you'd have as an adult or older child that my 2.5 yo didn't experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

It does have firm boundaries sorry you're one of those who mistake responsive parenting for permissive parenting.

so what do you do when a 5 yr old hits you or another child?

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is too harsh. It's also ineffective. I think the real red flag that you are on the wrong track is that the "nose to wall" punishment is an escalation of your original punishment, which you deemed ineffective because your son kept trying to talk to your daughter.

Take a step back. Is talking to his sister normally a punishable offense? Do you think being able to communicate with a family member is a "privilege" that must be earned? Stop and really think about this.

My instinct in this situation would be to get curious about why my son always wants to talk to his sister when he's in time out. I know a lot of parents will jump to the conclusion "because he knows he's not supposed to!" That's a parent-centric thought pattern. You assume everything he's doing is meant to push boundaries or to disobey you, because you are focused on getting him to obey. But maybe it has nothing to do with you. Maybe he tries to talk to his sister because she's upset and he wants human interaction. That's really normal. Maybe he can feel your displeasure with him and he wants to connect to another family member to see if she still likes him. He might be trying to solve a problem with this behavior. And you are saying no, you have no agency here, you must be deprived of all comfort. Does that sound harsh to you? It does to me.

I think time outs can be a really effective tool in parenting, especially when emotions escalate. Taking a time out to calm down, and eventually to sort through feelings and, if needed, discuss them, is such a great skill. But it's important that the time out actually help calm. To do that, people usually need some resources. Whether that's snuggling in their room with a favorite stuffed animal, or sitting in mommy's lap, or going outside in nature, or listening to music, or whatever. That's a wonderful gift you can give your child -- "When you get upset, here are some things you can do to help you regulate so that you can move forward." That's a tool they can use forever with friends and family, at work, with their own kids.

Teaching a child that if they mess up, they must be denied physical comfort, human interaction, even the ability to look around the room is going to backfire. Either now or later, probably both. It's just not a sustainable solution to anything and does not arm your child with resources that will help them handle adversity in the future. All you have taught him is compliance. A person who can comply but has no further emotional resources is a ticking time bomb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it is too harsh. It's also ineffective. I think the real red flag that you are on the wrong track is that the "nose to wall" punishment is an escalation of your original punishment, which you deemed ineffective because your son kept trying to talk to your daughter.

Take a step back. Is talking to his sister normally a punishable offense? Do you think being able to communicate with a family member is a "privilege" that must be earned? Stop and really think about this.

My instinct in this situation would be to get curious about why my son always wants to talk to his sister when he's in time out. I know a lot of parents will jump to the conclusion "because he knows he's not supposed to!" That's a parent-centric thought pattern. You assume everything he's doing is meant to push boundaries or to disobey you, because you are focused on getting him to obey. But maybe it has nothing to do with you. Maybe he tries to talk to his sister because she's upset and he wants human interaction. That's really normal. Maybe he can feel your displeasure with him and he wants to connect to another family member to see if she still likes him. He might be trying to solve a problem with this behavior. And you are saying no, you have no agency here, you must be deprived of all comfort. Does that sound harsh to you? It does to me.

I think time outs can be a really effective tool in parenting, especially when emotions escalate. Taking a time out to calm down, and eventually to sort through feelings and, if needed, discuss them, is such a great skill. But it's important that the time out actually help calm. To do that, people usually need some resources. Whether that's snuggling in their room with a favorite stuffed animal, or sitting in mommy's lap, or going outside in nature, or listening to music, or whatever. That's a wonderful gift you can give your child -- "When you get upset, here are some things you can do to help you regulate so that you can move forward." That's a tool they can use forever with friends and family, at work, with their own kids.

Teaching a child that if they mess up, they must be denied physical comfort, human interaction, even the ability to look around the room is going to backfire. Either now or later, probably both. It's just not a sustainable solution to anything and does not arm your child with resources that will help them handle adversity in the future. All you have taught him is compliance. A person who can comply but has no further emotional resources is a ticking time bomb.

No, you’re wrong. Positive and negative reinforcements are both key techniques in changing behavior. All the psychodrama you go through is interesting to think about, but will not change disruptive behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

oh really - please show me the research studies that support “conscious discipline” as a way to handle disruptive behavior.

you have one minimally disruptive young child, maybe not even 5 years old. you don’t have a clue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

Thank you, I’m going to cross stitch this onto a couch pillow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it is too harsh. It's also ineffective. I think the real red flag that you are on the wrong track is that the "nose to wall" punishment is an escalation of your original punishment, which you deemed ineffective because your son kept trying to talk to your daughter.

Take a step back. Is talking to his sister normally a punishable offense? Do you think being able to communicate with a family member is a "privilege" that must be earned? Stop and really think about this.

My instinct in this situation would be to get curious about why my son always wants to talk to his sister when he's in time out. I know a lot of parents will jump to the conclusion "because he knows he's not supposed to!" That's a parent-centric thought pattern. You assume everything he's doing is meant to push boundaries or to disobey you, because you are focused on getting him to obey. But maybe it has nothing to do with you. Maybe he tries to talk to his sister because she's upset and he wants human interaction. That's really normal. Maybe he can feel your displeasure with him and he wants to connect to another family member to see if she still likes him. He might be trying to solve a problem with this behavior. And you are saying no, you have no agency here, you must be deprived of all comfort. Does that sound harsh to you? It does to me.

I think time outs can be a really effective tool in parenting, especially when emotions escalate. Taking a time out to calm down, and eventually to sort through feelings and, if needed, discuss them, is such a great skill. But it's important that the time out actually help calm. To do that, people usually need some resources. Whether that's snuggling in their room with a favorite stuffed animal, or sitting in mommy's lap, or going outside in nature, or listening to music, or whatever. That's a wonderful gift you can give your child -- "When you get upset, here are some things you can do to help you regulate so that you can move forward." That's a tool they can use forever with friends and family, at work, with their own kids.

Teaching a child that if they mess up, they must be denied physical comfort, human interaction, even the ability to look around the room is going to backfire. Either now or later, probably both. It's just not a sustainable solution to anything and does not arm your child with resources that will help them handle adversity in the future. All you have taught him is compliance. A person who can comply but has no further emotional resources is a ticking time bomb.

No, you’re wrong. Positive and negative reinforcements are both key techniques in changing behavior. All the psychodrama you go through is interesting to think about, but will not change disruptive behavior.

Also, you can offer positive and negative reinforcement without forcing your child to go stare at a wall, just as you can do so without hitting or berating your child. A negative reinforcement can be "Well you didn't listen when I asked you to pick up your room, so I guess we won't have time to go to the playground today." It can also be punching your kid in the head. They will both "work" but one will teach your child something useful and the other is abuse. It's not "psychodrama", and it's honestly sad that you think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

I have a kid who struggles with verbal communication. She literally can't talk things out, especially when upset, even at 8 yo. All of those "gentle" methods are infuriating for her and get her worked up because she gets so frustrated that she can't communicate. Putting her in a quiet space by herself with no talkng is the most calming option for her and let's her process before having to try to engage in any communication about what happened (which does typically upsets her all over again as she gets frustrated that she can't explain herself). At 2.5 yo that was a quiet corner to calm down. At 8 yo it's her room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it is too harsh. It's also ineffective. I think the real red flag that you are on the wrong track is that the "nose to wall" punishment is an escalation of your original punishment, which you deemed ineffective because your son kept trying to talk to your daughter.

Take a step back. Is talking to his sister normally a punishable offense? Do you think being able to communicate with a family member is a "privilege" that must be earned? Stop and really think about this.

My instinct in this situation would be to get curious about why my son always wants to talk to his sister when he's in time out. I know a lot of parents will jump to the conclusion "because he knows he's not supposed to!" That's a parent-centric thought pattern. You assume everything he's doing is meant to push boundaries or to disobey you, because you are focused on getting him to obey. But maybe it has nothing to do with you. Maybe he tries to talk to his sister because she's upset and he wants human interaction. That's really normal. Maybe he can feel your displeasure with him and he wants to connect to another family member to see if she still likes him. He might be trying to solve a problem with this behavior. And you are saying no, you have no agency here, you must be deprived of all comfort. Does that sound harsh to you? It does to me.

I think time outs can be a really effective tool in parenting, especially when emotions escalate. Taking a time out to calm down, and eventually to sort through feelings and, if needed, discuss them, is such a great skill. But it's important that the time out actually help calm. To do that, people usually need some resources. Whether that's snuggling in their room with a favorite stuffed animal, or sitting in mommy's lap, or going outside in nature, or listening to music, or whatever. That's a wonderful gift you can give your child -- "When you get upset, here are some things you can do to help you regulate so that you can move forward." That's a tool they can use forever with friends and family, at work, with their own kids.

Teaching a child that if they mess up, they must be denied physical comfort, human interaction, even the ability to look around the room is going to backfire. Either now or later, probably both. It's just not a sustainable solution to anything and does not arm your child with resources that will help them handle adversity in the future. All you have taught him is compliance. A person who can comply but has no further emotional resources is a ticking time bomb.

No, you’re wrong. Positive and negative reinforcements are both key techniques in changing behavior. All the psychodrama you go through is interesting to think about, but will not change disruptive behavior.

Also, you can offer positive and negative reinforcement without forcing your child to go stare at a wall, just as you can do so without hitting or berating your child. A negative reinforcement can be "Well you didn't listen when I asked you to pick up your room, so I guess we won't have time to go to the playground today." It can also be punching your kid in the head. They will both "work" but one will teach your child something useful and the other is abuse. It's not "psychodrama", and it's honestly sad that you think it is.

the fact that you’re insistent that this is “abuse” informs me that you’re more interested in psychodrama and moralizing than actually understanding child behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

oh really - please show me the research studies that support “conscious discipline” as a way to handle disruptive behavior.

you have one minimally disruptive young child, maybe not even 5 years old. you don’t have a clue.

https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/JRIT-01-2019-0017/full/html

There are others, but I'm working, I'm sure you can find them via Google. I actually learned about CD from our elementary school and was impressed with its impact particularly on at risk kids with high needs for emotional regulation. I actually think it's designed for kids at the elementary and middle school level, so definitely not restricted to the under-5 crowd (though certainly the same concepts can be applied there -- I think the earlier you start, usually the better it is for the parent-child or teacher-child relationship because the whole idea is to build trust and accountability that leads to mutual respect).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it is too harsh. It's also ineffective. I think the real red flag that you are on the wrong track is that the "nose to wall" punishment is an escalation of your original punishment, which you deemed ineffective because your son kept trying to talk to your daughter.

Take a step back. Is talking to his sister normally a punishable offense? Do you think being able to communicate with a family member is a "privilege" that must be earned? Stop and really think about this.

My instinct in this situation would be to get curious about why my son always wants to talk to his sister when he's in time out. I know a lot of parents will jump to the conclusion "because he knows he's not supposed to!" That's a parent-centric thought pattern. You assume everything he's doing is meant to push boundaries or to disobey you, because you are focused on getting him to obey. But maybe it has nothing to do with you. Maybe he tries to talk to his sister because she's upset and he wants human interaction. That's really normal. Maybe he can feel your displeasure with him and he wants to connect to another family member to see if she still likes him. He might be trying to solve a problem with this behavior. And you are saying no, you have no agency here, you must be deprived of all comfort. Does that sound harsh to you? It does to me.

I think time outs can be a really effective tool in parenting, especially when emotions escalate. Taking a time out to calm down, and eventually to sort through feelings and, if needed, discuss them, is such a great skill. But it's important that the time out actually help calm. To do that, people usually need some resources. Whether that's snuggling in their room with a favorite stuffed animal, or sitting in mommy's lap, or going outside in nature, or listening to music, or whatever. That's a wonderful gift you can give your child -- "When you get upset, here are some things you can do to help you regulate so that you can move forward." That's a tool they can use forever with friends and family, at work, with their own kids.

Teaching a child that if they mess up, they must be denied physical comfort, human interaction, even the ability to look around the room is going to backfire. Either now or later, probably both. It's just not a sustainable solution to anything and does not arm your child with resources that will help them handle adversity in the future. All you have taught him is compliance. A person who can comply but has no further emotional resources is a ticking time bomb.

No, you’re wrong. Positive and negative reinforcements are both key techniques in changing behavior. All the psychodrama you go through is interesting to think about, but will not change disruptive behavior.

Also, you can offer positive and negative reinforcement without forcing your child to go stare at a wall, just as you can do so without hitting or berating your child. A negative reinforcement can be "Well you didn't listen when I asked you to pick up your room, so I guess we won't have time to go to the playground today." It can also be punching your kid in the head. They will both "work" but one will teach your child something useful and the other is abuse. It's not "psychodrama", and it's honestly sad that you think it is.

the fact that you’re insistent that this is “abuse” informs me that you’re more interested in psychodrama and moralizing than actually understanding child behavior.

I described punching a kid in the head as abuse. If that's a point of disagreement for you, then....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

I have a kid who struggles with verbal communication. She literally can't talk things out, especially when upset, even at 8 yo. All of those "gentle" methods are infuriating for her and get her worked up because she gets so frustrated that she can't communicate. Putting her in a quiet space by herself with no talkng is the most calming option for her and let's her process before having to try to engage in any communication about what happened (which does typically upsets her all over again as she gets frustrated that she can't explain herself). At 2.5 yo that was a quiet corner to calm down. At 8 yo it's her room.

What you describe is a gentle parenting method. Timeouts, especially removal to a quiet place where the child can calm herself, is a gentle approach. Having a child stand in the middle of a room that other family members are in with his nose to the wall to prevent him from interacting with a sibling who is sitting nearby is not.

Also, very few people can talk things out when upset, even adults. The whole point of many gentle parenting methods, including time outs, is to help a child learn to self-regulate until they can get to a point of calm that will allow them to problem solve. If verbal communication is a challenge or not suitable to the child, gentle parenting would suggest offering other methods for communication (writing things down, artistic expression, etc.). All of that is gentle. It sounds like you are in tune with your child's needs and seek out parenting solutions that meet her where she is at. If conscious discipline didn't work for you, no big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

I have a kid who struggles with verbal communication. She literally can't talk things out, especially when upset, even at 8 yo. All of those "gentle" methods are infuriating for her and get her worked up because she gets so frustrated that she can't communicate. Putting her in a quiet space by herself with no talkng is the most calming option for her and let's her process before having to try to engage in any communication about what happened (which does typically upsets her all over again as she gets frustrated that she can't explain herself). At 2.5 yo that was a quiet corner to calm down. At 8 yo it's her room.

What you describe is a gentle parenting method. Timeouts, especially removal to a quiet place where the child can calm herself, is a gentle approach. Having a child stand in the middle of a room that other family members are in with his nose to the wall to prevent him from interacting with a sibling who is sitting nearby is not.

Also, very few people can talk things out when upset, even adults. The whole point of many gentle parenting methods, including time outs, is to help a child learn to self-regulate until they can get to a point of calm that will allow them to problem solve. If verbal communication is a challenge or not suitable to the child, gentle parenting would suggest offering other methods for communication (writing things down, artistic expression, etc.). All of that is gentle. It sounds like you are in tune with your child's needs and seek out parenting solutions that meet her where she is at. If conscious discipline didn't work for you, no big deal.

No, you don't get it. She can't write things down. She doesn't express herself artistically. She can't solve her own problems because she can't find the words and hitting isn't an appropriate solution. Parenting books are all rubbish for her. She feels legitimate and justified rage at her own inability to communicate. I'm just trying to keep her in one piece until her verbal skills develop enough to allow her to defend herself.