is nose-to-wall timeout too harsh?

[Anonymous]

If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

I have a kid who struggles with verbal communication. She literally can't talk things out, especially when upset, even at 8 yo. All of those "gentle" methods are infuriating for her and get her worked up because she gets so frustrated that she can't communicate. Putting her in a quiet space by herself with no talkng is the most calming option for her and let's her process before having to try to engage in any communication about what happened (which does typically upsets her all over again as she gets frustrated that she can't explain herself). At 2.5 yo that was a quiet corner to calm down. At 8 yo it's her room.

What you describe is a gentle parenting method. Timeouts, especially removal to a quiet place where the child can calm herself, is a gentle approach. Having a child stand in the middle of a room that other family members are in with his nose to the wall to prevent him from interacting with a sibling who is sitting nearby is not.

Also, very few people can talk things out when upset, even adults. The whole point of many gentle parenting methods, including time outs, is to help a child learn to self-regulate until they can get to a point of calm that will allow them to problem solve. If verbal communication is a challenge or not suitable to the child, gentle parenting would suggest offering other methods for communication (writing things down, artistic expression, etc.). All of that is gentle. It sounds like you are in tune with your child's needs and seek out parenting solutions that meet her where she is at. If conscious discipline didn't work for you, no big deal.

No, you don't get it. She can't write things down. She doesn't express herself artistically. She can't solve her own problems because she can't find the words and hitting isn't an appropriate solution. Parenting books are all rubbish for her. She feels legitimate and justified rage at her own inability to communicate. I'm just trying to keep her in one piece until her verbal skills develop enough to allow her to defend herself.

DP. I’m not sure it’s worthwhile arguing with her. People like that are more interested in judging other moms and identifying with ideologies than understanding that there are a lot of parenting experiences and situations they know nothing about. In fact, one of my rules of thumb for any parenting advicd (including therapies) is that it be flexible enough to take into account that kids are different and may need distinct approaches.

[Anonymous]

Will be fun when he is in class and another child frustrates him and he starts insisting they put their nose to the wall over and over again. Or a teacher corrects him and he goes and puts his nose to the wall. Sure to raise some eyebrows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP your goal is to have him learn how to self-regulate correct? Because you wont be able to make him stand in a corner with his nose against the wall forever and it certainly isnt a long-term strategy for him. I mean, when he gets mad at 8 years old in the middle of art class, work or at his girlfriend do you want him saying excuse me I need a minute and then go find a corner to put his nose in? NO you dont. You want him to remove himself from the situation and/or be able to be downgrade/shift his emotional state.

Boys are a bit harder because they are actually physiologically more response to high emotions meaning their bodies response is at a higher level (i.e. blood pressure, heart rate, some neurotransmitters, etc).

Id really suggest conscious discipline as a resource on IG. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJRfkHkl79Y/

Your expectation is developmentally inappropriate. Please watch the link video specifically for your kids but the entire account is really helpful.

lol things like “conscious discipline” do NOT work unless the kid is naturally compliant. If they are naturally compliant, anything will work. Whenever I read those stupid parenting books and blogs, the description of the kids’ behavior is so incredibly mild that I laugh. Get back to me when your kid is repeatedly hitting you and other kids. you can’t emote your way out of that. you have to set firm boundaries, and past the toddler stage, you do that with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

You have it backwards. The conscious discipline and similar styles were developed specifically for kids who are not compliant and therefore do not respond well to traditional discipline. The whole point of these approaches is to give kids who really, really struggle with behaving a bigger toolkit for handling their emotions.

My kid is "naturally combative". She's stubborn and can get very upset when she doesn't get her way or when things are not exactly how she expects them to be. If we try to punish this behavior, all that happens is that emotions escalate. She becomes more and more irate. But if we use gentle parenting methods, she becomes more gentle. She also has learned to communicate these feelings she has that lead her to get so angry. She will say to me "I just get so mad and it makes me want to hit and hit and hit." And we talk through that and discuss options for when she feels that way that don't involve hitting people. And guess what? She doesn't hit people anymore. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way ever. It just means that she has learned to identify those feelings, talk through them, and learned some alternatives that will de-escalate the situation instead of making it worse. It doesn't mean there are NO punishments (if she does hit someone, she is immediately removed from that situation, though not to stand with her nose to the wall, more likely to sit alone in her room or the car). But the focus is not on punishments but on learning better ways of handling things.

If you can use a tactic like "nose to wall" and it doesn't lead to worse, escalating behavior, you're the one with the naturally compliant kid. And I still think in that situation, it's probably teaching your child the wrong lessons. But maybe they are just a more chill child and don't need as much self-regulating education as my kid does.

oh really - please show me the research studies that support “conscious discipline” as a way to handle disruptive behavior.

you have one minimally disruptive young child, maybe not even 5 years old. you don’t have a clue.

https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/JRIT-01-2019-0017/full/html

There are others, but I'm working, I'm sure you can find them via Google. I actually learned about CD from our elementary school and was impressed with its impact particularly on at risk kids with high needs for emotional regulation. I actually think it's designed for kids at the elementary and middle school level, so definitely not restricted to the under-5 crowd (though certainly the same concepts can be applied there -- I think the earlier you start, usually the better it is for the parent-child or teacher-child relationship because the whole idea is to build trust and accountability that leads to mutual respect).

“ The study was correlational, based on self-report, and had a small sample with no comparison group.”

I don’t have any special objection to “SEL” programs that focus on parents learning self-regulation and didactic teaching to kids. It’s probably harmless. But ig in no ways substitutes for clearly designed incentive programs for changing behavior. Where there are behavioral issues, established approaches like Kazdin, PMT and PCIT are the way to go. If you have a kid that responds quickly to “emotion coaching” that you read about on the internet - good for you, sounds like you have an easy kid.

https://alankazdin.com/research/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

I didn't say good or bad. I said "limited".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

I didn't say good or bad. I said "limited".

That isnt gentle parenting. Thats permissive. Kind IS not a word kids/toddlers can understand because they have no sense of anyone elses desires/needs/thoughts. Also Larlo isnt responsible for how mommy feels- but thats a whole other issue.

This is the elementary age thread so I would assume we are talking about 5/6 and up. No one speaks like the bolded to a 5 year old unless they have no idea what they are doing but that doesnt mean gentle parenting is the issue it means the parent is the issue.
By that point the boundary of hitting should have already been accomplished. No hitting. I see that you are angry or frustrated. You can stomp when you are angry/frustrated- thats 2-4 year olds. then you move onto STAR/calming practices because youve already worked with them on identifying the emotion and what they can do. Then you scaffold.

I practice gentle parenting and if my 6 year old was hitting at the park we would leave. It is unacceptable behavior at that age. They are obviously dealing with something else to regress back to use hitting as a way to communicate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

I didn't say good or bad. I said "limited".

That isnt gentle parenting. Thats permissive. Kind IS not a word kids/toddlers can understand because they have no sense of anyone elses desires/needs/thoughts. Also Larlo isnt responsible for how mommy feels- but thats a whole other issue.

This is the elementary age thread so I would assume we are talking about 5/6 and up. No one speaks like the bolded to a 5 year old unless they have no idea what they are doing but that doesnt mean gentle parenting is the issue it means the parent is the issue.
By that point the boundary of hitting should have already been accomplished. No hitting. I see that you are angry or frustrated. You can stomp when you are angry/frustrated- thats 2-4 year olds. then you move onto STAR/calming practices because youve already worked with them on identifying the emotion and what they can do. Then you scaffold.

I practice gentle parenting and if my 6 year old was hitting at the park we would leave. It is unacceptable behavior at that age. They are obviously dealing with something else to regress back to use hitting as a way to communicate.

Again, you are fortunate to have an easy child. Using buzzwords like "STAR" and "gentle parenting" doesn't convince me that you actually know what may be appropriate for a broader range of children. "Gentle parenting" is your personal values (based on your limited experience turned into a just-so story). It's not an evidence-based practice.

[Anonymous]

My dad did this to us once. That behavior was never repeated. So I would say it was very effective.

I don’t find it humiliating. There isn’t anyone to see except your parents. But it is extremely uncomfortable- hence why it was effective, at least for me. But I have never done it or thought to do it as a parent. Just not necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

I didn't say good or bad. I said "limited".

That isnt gentle parenting. Thats permissive. Kind IS not a word kids/toddlers can understand because they have no sense of anyone elses desires/needs/thoughts. Also Larlo isnt responsible for how mommy feels- but thats a whole other issue.

This is the elementary age thread so I would assume we are talking about 5/6 and up. No one speaks like the bolded to a 5 year old unless they have no idea what they are doing but that doesnt mean gentle parenting is the issue it means the parent is the issue.
By that point the boundary of hitting should have already been accomplished. No hitting. I see that you are angry or frustrated. You can stomp when you are angry/frustrated- thats 2-4 year olds. then you move onto STAR/calming practices because youve already worked with them on identifying the emotion and what they can do. Then you scaffold.

I practice gentle parenting and if my 6 year old was hitting at the park we would leave. It is unacceptable behavior at that age. They are obviously dealing with something else to regress back to use hitting as a way to communicate.

+1 to all of this. You are obviously a good parent and I bet your kid appreciates it now and appreciates it later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

I didn't say good or bad. I said "limited".

That isnt gentle parenting. Thats permissive. Kind IS not a word kids/toddlers can understand because they have no sense of anyone elses desires/needs/thoughts. Also Larlo isnt responsible for how mommy feels- but thats a whole other issue.

This is the elementary age thread so I would assume we are talking about 5/6 and up. No one speaks like the bolded to a 5 year old unless they have no idea what they are doing but that doesnt mean gentle parenting is the issue it means the parent is the issue.
By that point the boundary of hitting should have already been accomplished. No hitting. I see that you are angry or frustrated. You can stomp when you are angry/frustrated- thats 2-4 year olds. then you move onto STAR/calming practices because youve already worked with them on identifying the emotion and what they can do. Then you scaffold.

I practice gentle parenting and if my 6 year old was hitting at the park we would leave. It is unacceptable behavior at that age. They are obviously dealing with something else to regress back to use hitting as a way to communicate.

Again, you are fortunate to have an easy child. Using buzzwords like "STAR" and "gentle parenting" doesn't convince me that you actually know what may be appropriate for a broader range of children. "Gentle parenting" is your personal values (based on your limited experience turned into a just-so story). It's not an evidence-based practice.

You cannot just say "well your child is easy" to any parent who says they use gentle parenting successfully. If the parenting technique works, THAT is what makes the child easier to deal with. It's not that parents who do gentle parenting all just magically have easy kids.

I have seen this approach work well with calm, quiet children, with children with ASD, with children who are very active and often oppositional. The one unifying factor is that the family experience tends to be calmer with less conflict, not only between parents and children but between parents and between children. Even when kids struggle, there is a calmness and a sense that the problem is approachable. These are life lessons.

I do not have an "easy" child -- I've had numerous parents comment to me on how intense my kid is and how much more work she seems to require compared to their kids. Same with teachers. But I adopted gentle parenting styles after taking a PEP class and doing some reading (and based on recommendations from friends and from DCUM) and I absolutely feel this is something that can work with even very high needs kids. More importantly, I think it has provided ME with some emotional regulation that I didn't get from my much more rigid, disciplinarian upbringing. I tried that because it's what I knew growing up -- it made everything worse and made everyone feel terrible all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My dad did this to us once. That behavior was never repeated. So I would say it was very effective.

I don’t find it humiliating. There isn’t anyone to see except your parents. But it is extremely uncomfortable- hence why it was effective, at least for me. But I have never done it or thought to do it as a parent. Just not necessary.

What makes you think a child cannot be humiliated in front of his parents or siblings? Children value the opinions of their parents and family more than anyone else. If they feel their immediate family does not value them or thinks they are "bad" people, it will absolutely feel like humiliation and shame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

I didn't say good or bad. I said "limited".

That isnt gentle parenting. Thats permissive. Kind IS not a word kids/toddlers can understand because they have no sense of anyone elses desires/needs/thoughts. Also Larlo isnt responsible for how mommy feels- but thats a whole other issue.

This is the elementary age thread so I would assume we are talking about 5/6 and up. No one speaks like the bolded to a 5 year old unless they have no idea what they are doing but that doesnt mean gentle parenting is the issue it means the parent is the issue.
By that point the boundary of hitting should have already been accomplished. No hitting. I see that you are angry or frustrated. You can stomp when you are angry/frustrated- thats 2-4 year olds. then you move onto STAR/calming practices because youve already worked with them on identifying the emotion and what they can do. Then you scaffold.

I practice gentle parenting and if my 6 year old was hitting at the park we would leave. It is unacceptable behavior at that age. They are obviously dealing with something else to regress back to use hitting as a way to communicate.

Again, you are fortunate to have an easy child. Using buzzwords like "STAR" and "gentle parenting" doesn't convince me that you actually know what may be appropriate for a broader range of children. "Gentle parenting" is your personal values (based on your limited experience turned into a just-so story). It's not an evidence-based practice.

STAR is a breathing technique that is part of an overall "Conscious Discipline" approach that is not permissive. I find all of these curricula kind of hokey as constituted, but our kid's day care used it with all kids (roughly 35 of them in the center) with great results--and it was a wide range of temperaments, ability to communicate, experiences of trauma, etc. And he is 6 and still uses what he learned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Will be fun when he is in class and another child frustrates him and he starts insisting they put their nose to the wall over and over again. Or a teacher corrects him and he goes and puts his nose to the wall. Sure to raise some eyebrows.

What are you talking about? Do your kids try to instill their consequences on other kids in school? If so they haven't figured out that that isn't up to them. OP's kid isn't likely to carry out his own consequence either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I saw you doing this I would assume you had extremely limited parenting skills.

really? because I think the prototypical “gentle parenting” approach I see out in public seems more like limited skills. “Now Larlo, we don’t hit! Larlo mommy is really feeling upset! Larlo take a deep breath … Larlo no that is not nice!! LARLO BE KIND!!”

If I saw a dad give a swift, authoritative time out in response to hitting - I would think that was good parenting.

I didn't say good or bad. I said "limited".

That isnt gentle parenting. Thats permissive. Kind IS not a word kids/toddlers can understand because they have no sense of anyone elses desires/needs/thoughts. Also Larlo isnt responsible for how mommy feels- but thats a whole other issue.

This is the elementary age thread so I would assume we are talking about 5/6 and up. No one speaks like the bolded to a 5 year old unless they have no idea what they are doing but that doesnt mean gentle parenting is the issue it means the parent is the issue.
By that point the boundary of hitting should have already been accomplished. No hitting. I see that you are angry or frustrated. You can stomp when you are angry/frustrated- thats 2-4 year olds. then you move onto STAR/calming practices because youve already worked with them on identifying the emotion and what they can do. Then you scaffold.

I practice gentle parenting and if my 6 year old was hitting at the park we would leave. It is unacceptable behavior at that age. They are obviously dealing with something else to regress back to use hitting as a way to communicate.

Again, you are fortunate to have an easy child. Using buzzwords like "STAR" and "gentle parenting" doesn't convince me that you actually know what may be appropriate for a broader range of children. "Gentle parenting" is your personal values (based on your limited experience turned into a just-so story). It's not an evidence-based practice.

STAR is a breathing technique that is part of an overall "Conscious Discipline" approach that is not permissive. I find all of these curricula kind of hokey as constituted, but our kid's day care used it with all kids (roughly 35 of them in the center) with great results--and it was a wide range of temperaments, ability to communicate, experiences of trauma, etc. And he is 6 and still uses what he learned.

Can you explain STAR and "scaffold"? I don't think those terms make sense unless you've studied the literature.