Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Once more, with feeling. You certainly IMPLIED that rights and responsibilities were equal, when you used the word "equal" for a non-Muslim audience you KNEW VERY WELL would interpret the word differently from a Muslim audience. That's no different from a deliberate deception on your part.

You have only yourself to blame, if it took 20+ pages on women in Islam, across several threads, to get you to the point where you finally said, "what I actually mean by 'equal' is..."

You are dense, go get a drink. Get a cosmo, suits your personality and call Carrie Bradshaw while you're at it, you can have a nice relaxing discussion about women's rights while sipping on your cosmo....

Signed,
A Muslim Woman who is equaled to a Muslim Man

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You remind me of Humpty-Dumpty who said the word means whatever he wants it to mean. Equality doesn't mean whatever you need it to mean to work with your argument. That women and men are equal "in the eyes of Allah" doesn't mean they have equality.

Here is the gist of your argument: the set of rights and responsibilities granted to men ankd women under Shariah is complementary and they work together.

That's cool. That doesn't mean they are "equal". Your argument would be better served if you just said that the roles of men and women in Islam are different from the Western views, and that works for Muslims. Rather than argue that they are "equal", knowing full well that this isn't true, and that the West should agree with this interpretation. You're fighting a losing battle.

Thank you. I started to write exactly this: an effective argument would go something along the lines of, "Women and men have different roles in Islam than in the West, and Islamic laws reflect this. Muslims appreciate these rules, which create the Muslim society that they want to live in."

By contrast, when you simply say, "Women are treated equally under Islam," you're deliberately using the word "equally" in a way that you know is understood very differently by your listeners. That's why the accusations of deception. That's what provoked the 20 pages detailing the actual laws, which you complain so much about.

Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

Don't be ridiculous.

Muslima and you both understand very well that the word "equality" is commonly used in the West to mean equal treatment in all aspects of marriage and the law. Your feigned shock, that non-Muslims living in a secular country should understand how Muslims use the word "equal," is laughable. It's like expecting you to understand Christian or Jewish words that are freighted with particularly Christian and Jewish meanings.

Yes, we know you're not Muslima by the insults. You must by Abusive Muslim. We get it, your little conversion effort failed, and now you're po'd.

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Muslima, you just crack me up!! You go, girl.

Seriously, the ignorance in some of these posts crack me up. I laugh and laugh and then realize that they might really believe what they are writing and then I get scared lol

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Provide proof of Muslim women voting 1400 years ago. Actually, provide proof of anybody Muslim voting 1400 years ago. The majority of Muslim rulers throughout history have not been selected by voting, whether by males or females.

You need a dictionary to tell you what "equal" means. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

Google it, I don't have time to educate you. Or go to the library, turn left and look under "History of World Religions". If you can't go that far, ask the nice ladies at the front desk, they will be happy to show you what section you need to look under. Then, wear your glasses, sit down, take a long breath and start reading..... The so-called Muslim countries have had like what, over 8 Muslim women as Female head of states, and America is still waiting for Hillary so we can make history in 2014

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

You aren't talking to Muslim women. You are talking to majority non-Muslim women.

Secondly, you don't speak for all Muslim women and you have no idea what the totality of them think. Have you met them all? Do you know what ALL of them think? You don't know what a Muslim woman's idea of equality is because there is no such thing as A Muslim Woman. There's women, millions of them, all with their own ideas that don't come out of your little factory.

I have met Muslim women who were distraught by the treatment of courts and judges who wouldn't grant them divorces from their abusive husbands, recommending lots of sabr instead.

I have met Muslim divorced women who kept their new relationships secret out of fear of losing custody of their children if they remarry.

I have met Muslim women and children, both small and grown, shattered by additional marriages their fathers and husbands chose to contract, sometimes in secret from the first families.

I have met Muslim women who had to bribe their drug addict husbands so that they would agree to khul separations.

I have met Muslim women angered by unilateral custody decisions that kept them away from their children, sanctioned by courts.

You don't speak for all Muslim women. You simply have no idea of the diversity of opinions and situations that exist for women in Muslim-majority countries.

You say in one breath, there is no such thing as a Muslim Woman ( thank you for letting me know I don't exist, i had no idea ) to saying in your next break "i have met many muslim women" , so you actually have met women who don't exist? since there is no such a thing as a muslim woman.... How ridiculous can this get???
I guess you are the one who speaks for Muslim women then since she can't and she has no idea of the diversity of opinions and situations that exist for women in Muslim-majority countries, according to you , Wowzeeee! Next time i hear about a Muslim woman in distress, i will make sure to call you at 1-800-anonymous so you can save her life since you have met all these women women who were so angered and abused and needed help. Do you work at a Muslim Women Abuse Anonymous hotline? Geez! You are dense! The other muslim poster and I must live under a rock since we were not aware of all these Islamic abuses done to Muslim women, what a wake up call!!!!!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You remind me of Humpty-Dumpty who said the word means whatever he wants it to mean. Equality doesn't mean whatever you need it to mean to work with your argument. That women and men are equal "in the eyes of Allah" doesn't mean they have equality.

Here is the gist of your argument: the set of rights and responsibilities granted to men ankd women under Shariah is complementary and they work together.

That's cool. That doesn't mean they are "equal". Your argument would be better served if you just said that the roles of men and women in Islam are different from the Western views, and that works for Muslims. Rather than argue that they are "equal", knowing full well that this isn't true, and that the West should agree with this interpretation. You're fighting a losing battle.

Thank you. I started to write exactly this: an effective argument would go something along the lines of, "Women and men have different roles in Islam than in the West, and Islamic laws reflect this. Muslims appreciate these rules, which create the Muslim society that they want to live in."

By contrast, when you simply say, "Women are treated equally under Islam," you're deliberately using the word "equally" in a way that you know is understood very differently by your listeners. That's why the accusations of deception. That's what provoked the 20 pages detailing the actual laws, which you complain so much about.

Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

Don't be ridiculous.

Muslima and you both understand very well that the word "equality" is commonly used in the West to mean equal treatment in all aspects of marriage and the law. Your feigned shock, that non-Muslims living in a secular country should understand how Muslims use the word "equal," is laughable. It's like expecting you to understand Christian or Jewish words that are freighted with particularly Christian and Jewish meanings.

Yes, we know you're not Muslima by the insults. You must by Abusive Muslim. We get it, your little conversion effort failed, and now you're po'd.

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote: I recently stumbled on an excerpt of aTED talk by Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran". I think it sums up very well most misunderstandings that people have about the Quran. I haven't watched the full talk yet which is about 90minutes but will definitely do so. I for one, appreciated the sincerity, and humor in her approach. Here's the excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g#t=560
Now, as far as Shariah law is concerned, it is fluid and decentralized.The Muslim scholar Hamza Yusuf commented that ‘reducing Shariah down to the punishments is like reducing the US judicial system down to the electric chair’. Any scholar with enough years of study can issue a fatwa (opinion) and it is not binding on anyone other than the one who chooses to follow it. Shariah considers context, time and place in its rulings. It is not uniform, what is considered an obligation/binding on one person may be prohibited for another. Rulings are made on a case-by-case basis. The principles behind Shariah remain the same but the applications are widely varied depending on a lot of different things including time, place, ect. The only people who attempted to formalize and codify shariah were the British with their colonies when they created the ‘Anglo-Muhammadan Law’ in an attempt to better control the law . Because of the very nature of Shariah law, a simplistic comparison to other legal systems will for the most part always be misleading. In fact, most Muslims have a very basic understanding of Shariah law, and that is another problem as well.....

This is so incredibly FALSE. What about Umdat al Salik, the official Sunni manual of Sharia law? It is certified by al-Azhar and is the official Sharia manual of the Muslim Brotherhood. It also includes the slight differences of Sharia interpretation of the different madh'habs. The English translation, Reliance of the Traveller, however, does not include the section on slavery.

Not. The danger is not radical Islam, it is radical ignorance. Umdat al Salik better known as Reliance of the Traveler in English is a manual of Fiqh for the Shaffi school of Jurisprudence. You do know that there are 4 schools of jurisprudence in Islam? UMdat al Salik is not Shariah, it is a manual on shariah and there are many other manuals of shariah. You did know that right? Shariah in itself is fluid, the PRINCIPLES behind it remain the same but the APPLICATIONS are widely varied. There is no such thing as an "official sunni sharia" book. Seriously?

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote: I recently stumbled on an excerpt of aTED talk by Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran". I think it sums up very well most misunderstandings that people have about the Quran. I haven't watched the full talk yet which is about 90minutes but will definitely do so. I for one, appreciated the sincerity, and humor in her approach. Here's the excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g#t=560
Now, as far as Shariah law is concerned, it is fluid and decentralized.The Muslim scholar Hamza Yusuf commented that ‘reducing Shariah down to the punishments is like reducing the US judicial system down to the electric chair’. Any scholar with enough years of study can issue a fatwa (opinion) and it is not binding on anyone other than the one who chooses to follow it. Shariah considers context, time and place in its rulings. It is not uniform, what is considered an obligation/binding on one person may be prohibited for another. Rulings are made on a case-by-case basis. The principles behind Shariah remain the same but the applications are widely varied depending on a lot of different things including time, place, ect. The only people who attempted to formalize and codify shariah were the British with their colonies when they created the ‘Anglo-Muhammadan Law’ in an attempt to better control the law . Because of the very nature of Shariah law, a simplistic comparison to other legal systems will for the most part always be misleading. In fact, most Muslims have a very basic understanding of Shariah law, and that is another problem as well.....

ISIS beheads their victims because they are following the Quran and Mohammed. They say it in the videos.

While Shariah law is left to interpretation, is not the Quran gods law, the unaltered and direct words of God, as written by Muhammed, a human being? at least it is supposed to be that until it is not convenient.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

It is not hard to figure out what is going on, even though many on this board are stuck in a politically correct dc view.

The only solution is to follow the money, stop the Saudi funding of terrorist schools that preach Wahabism and hate. Expand our energy resources and tax the oil from SA to sky high levels. And confirm the fundamental separation of church and state and equal rights for women. Let the ME rot in never ending moslem on moslem violence. We need to stay out of there. Obama had it right but caved in. Bombing from the sky is lunacy. Stop all immigration from ME. Stop all travel from SA at american airports. We need to be smart and fight this cancer with economic warfare.

"The belief that the Quran is the unquestionable word of God is fundamental to the Islamic faith, and held by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, fundamentalist or progressive. Many of you believe that letting it go is as good as calling yourself non-Muslim. I get that. But does it have to be that way?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

With regard to the article, the problem as I see it is less the claims of infallibility of the Quran than the insistence that what it says is good for all times and all places--that is that the Quran is eternal and co-existent with God. This is what prevent s Muslims from saying--okay those verses seems antiquated relative to today's mores but they came in response to a very specific historical situation and can't really be applied more broadly than that.

The createdness of the Quran in seventh century Arabia (as opposed to from the beginning of time) was a mainstream theological view for a few centuries but eventually it lost out to theologians arguing for the co-eternity of the Quran with God. This is a desperately needed reform in Islam as it will allow everyone to distance themselves from the most problematic aspects of the Quran, just as Christians and Jews are able to distance themselves from the most problematic aspects of the Bible.

As for infallibility, Islam does need to reform itself on that as well. It would be fine and well to imagine there is somewhere in virtual space an infallible Quran, but real scholars (not the bottom of the class men who, much to their families' disappointment were not bright enough to study medicine, engineering, or science and so entered the school of religion at their local university--the only school that would accept them) need to come forward and point out how they Quran was assembled in Arabic and all the room for error and changes in wording inherent in that process.

This is just not true. Muslims do understand the context of the verses, when and why they were revealed, I mean really, you'd hope that the majority of Muslims do know this. Do you really think we are just a bunch of brainless sheep? Just because you refuse to understand that everything in the Quran has a context that you need to know to fully understand its verses, doesn't change this very basic fact of the Quran.

Yes, the Quran is timeless, infallible, that is our belief, you obviously do not believe that, it is your prerogative . It is your prerogative to interpret it but with due responsibility given the fact that we are dealing with a text that is 1400+ years old, written in a language that has changed in dialects over the years. Islam doesn't need a reform, Muslims do. Funny thing is, the Quran itself predicted this. It warns that those with a perverted heart will ignore the decisive foundational verses of the Quran, and manipulate the interpretive verses to promote discord and incorrect interpretations.

Here is the problem: If the Quran is eternal a phrase like "Kill unbelievers wherever you find them" becomes a dictate that is valid in all ages so someone like Baghdadi can exhort his followers to do so today in the name of the Quran. If the Quran is not eternal, that dictate is strictly limited to the early days of the Islamic expansion and what Baghdadi is doing is a heretical perversion of Islam. If it is eternal, you then have to defend the passage and tie yourself up into knots explaining why Baghdadi does not represent true Islam.

Of course, it is also true that ISIS is following its own particular view of what constitutes an unbeliever. There is plenty in the Quran to indicate that people of the book (Jews, Christians, Zorastrians--of which Yazidis are an offshoot--and certainly other Muslims) are not unbelievers.

With regard to infallibility, Muslims need to acknowledge the way the Quran was put together--on friable materials and in a Persian hand--means that the Quran as it is put together today most certainly is not exactly what Mohammed recited to his followers. And then there is the problem of discerning the meaning of words that are 1400 years old. Biblical scholars are in the constant process of re-evaluating what certain things in the Bible meant in the language of the time and this feeds into renewed understanding of its passages. Islam today is very closed to such a process and needs to open up, rather than saying this was all decided by theologians in the first 300 hundred years of Islam and not subject to further interpretation.

Your answers questions hint a profound ignorance of Islamic history and show your lack of knowledge of the Quran. Always baffles me to read people write paragraphs about Islam and lecture Muslims on things they have zero knowledge about. So let's decipher your message, and I'm only taking the time to do this, not for you, but other people who might read this while having no prior knowledge of Islam but your words that they can misconstrue as truth. Lets also start by saying, the basis of religion, Islam or otherwise is faith, not science or what you think is logical. Islam is a life choice and there is no compulsion to go into it.

From your first paragraph: No really, that's not how it works. Whether you like it or not, for Muslims the Quran is timeless. People of different times, different places, will understand it differently and there is in it something for each one of them. A verse that says "kill unbelievers" is not timeless since said verse is part of an entire paragraph that discusses why such verse was revealed and what needs to be done in that case. It is not a verse revealed to all mankind, how much sense would that make? Or else I guess the over 1 billion muslims who are not marching the streets killing unbelievers have all deviated from the Quran, we all failed but surely ISIS and Baghdadi got the message. It is particularly dishonest to quote a single verse from the Quran and scream "see I told you, they are barbaric". Why didn't you quote the verse before it? Or the one after it? So people can understand the context of that revelation? This is intellectual dishonesty, please stop. The Qur’an itself clarifies that certain commandments required certain circumstances. Heck, muslims were allowed at some point to drink alcoholic beverages, but this is no longer the case and the are many examples like this. If you study the Quran appropriately, you can never form the opinion that all the Quranic injunctions and guidance were practically binding on all Muslims for all times to come. This is just not true and make you sound ignorant.

Your 2nd paragraph: I don't know why you are bringing Persians into this but it is a historical truth that the text of the Quran as we know it today is, syllable for syllable, exactly the same as the prophet saw had recited to the Arabs 1400+years ago. When a verse was revealed , He would recite it, the companions would write it down and read it back to him, word for word. They would all recite the entire Quran. This went on for 23 years to give birth to what the Quran is today. But the miracle of it all, is that throughout 1400 years, muslims all over the world have memorized the Quran in its entirety and in arabic, Arabs and non-arabs alike. If you burn all copies of the Quran in the world today, it wouldn't make a difference, because it is preserved in the hearts of those who believe in it, and they can recite it word for word, dot after dot, all 6000 verses of it. So, yea, it is unchanged! Now when it comes to the interpretation of the verses, that's where we have fluidity, and this is why different Muslims sometimes believe different things. And this goes back to the Quran's timeless nature, people from different times, will understand it differently, heck people of the same time understand it differently. As early as the 12th century, scholars of Islam referred to the necessary “revival” (ihya) of “religious sciences”.The idea that faithfulness to Islam through history required a permanent effort of research, renewal and reform of though and of methodologies has been present in the world of Islam for centuries now. Scholars are having these conversations, on a daily basis, some dedicated their lives to studying classical arabic and the Quran for decades to better understand the text and what it means for people of our time. It is a shame that you didn't know this, perhaps a bit of research into the subject before writing an uninformed opinion would have helped!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote: I recently stumbled on an excerpt of aTED talk by Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran". I think it sums up very well most misunderstandings that people have about the Quran. I haven't watched the full talk yet which is about 90minutes but will definitely do so. I for one, appreciated the sincerity, and humor in her approach. Here's the excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g#t=560
Now, as far as Shariah law is concerned, it is fluid and decentralized.The Muslim scholar Hamza Yusuf commented that ‘reducing Shariah down to the punishments is like reducing the US judicial system down to the electric chair’. Any scholar with enough years of study can issue a fatwa (opinion) and it is not binding on anyone other than the one who chooses to follow it. Shariah considers context, time and place in its rulings. It is not uniform, what is considered an obligation/binding on one person may be prohibited for another. Rulings are made on a case-by-case basis. The principles behind Shariah remain the same but the applications are widely varied depending on a lot of different things including time, place, ect. The only people who attempted to formalize and codify shariah were the British with their colonies when they created the ‘Anglo-Muhammadan Law’ in an attempt to better control the law . Because of the very nature of Shariah law, a simplistic comparison to other legal systems will for the most part always be misleading. In fact, most Muslims have a very basic understanding of Shariah law, and that is another problem as well.....

ISIS beheads their victims because they are following the Quran and Mohammed. They say it in the videos.

While Shariah law is left to interpretation, is not the Quran gods law, the unaltered and direct words of God, as written by Muhammed, a human being? at least it is supposed to be that until it is not convenient.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

It is not hard to figure out what is going on, even though many on this board are stuck in a politically correct dc view.

The only solution is to follow the money, stop the Saudi funding of terrorist schools that preach Wahabism and hate. Expand our energy resources and tax the oil from SA to sky high levels. And confirm the fundamental separation of church and state and equal rights for women. Let the ME rot in never ending moslem on moslem violence. We need to stay out of there. Obama had it right but caved in. Bombing from the sky is lunacy. Stop all immigration from ME. Stop all travel from SA at american airports. We need to be smart and fight this cancer with economic warfare.

"The belief that the Quran is the unquestionable word of God is fundamental to the Islamic faith, and held by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, fundamentalist or progressive. Many of you believe that letting it go is as good as calling yourself non-Muslim. I get that. But does it have to be that way?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

With regard to the article, the problem as I see it is less the claims of infallibility of the Quran than the insistence that what it says is good for all times and all places--that is that the Quran is eternal and co-existent with God. This is what prevent s Muslims from saying--okay those verses seems antiquated relative to today's mores but they came in response to a very specific historical situation and can't really be applied more broadly than that.

The createdness of the Quran in seventh century Arabia (as opposed to from the beginning of time) was a mainstream theological view for a few centuries but eventually it lost out to theologians arguing for the co-eternity of the Quran with God. This is a desperately needed reform in Islam as it will allow everyone to distance themselves from the most problematic aspects of the Quran, just as Christians and Jews are able to distance themselves from the most problematic aspects of the Bible.

As for infallibility, Islam does need to reform itself on that as well. It would be fine and well to imagine there is somewhere in virtual space an infallible Quran, but real scholars (not the bottom of the class men who, much to their families' disappointment were not bright enough to study medicine, engineering, or science and so entered the school of religion at their local university--the only school that would accept them) need to come forward and point out how they Quran was assembled in Arabic and all the room for error and changes in wording inherent in that process.

This is just not true. Muslims do understand the context of the verses, when and why they were revealed, I mean really, you'd hope that the majority of Muslims do know this. Do you really think we are just a bunch of brainless sheep? Just because you refuse to understand that everything in the Quran has a context that you need to know to fully understand its verses, doesn't change this very basic fact of the Quran.

Yes, the Quran is timeless, infallible, that is our belief, you obviously do not believe that, it is your prerogative . It is your prerogative to interpret it but with due responsibility given the fact that we are dealing with a text that is 1400+ years old, written in a language that has changed in dialects over the years. Islam doesn't need a reform, Muslims do. Funny thing is, the Quran itself predicted this. It warns that those with a perverted heart will ignore the decisive foundational verses of the Quran, and manipulate the interpretive verses to promote discord and incorrect interpretations.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote: I recently stumbled on an excerpt of aTED talk by Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran". I think it sums up very well most misunderstandings that people have about the Quran. I haven't watched the full talk yet which is about 90minutes but will definitely do so. I for one, appreciated the sincerity, and humor in her approach. Here's the excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g#t=560
Now, as far as Shariah law is concerned, it is fluid and decentralized.The Muslim scholar Hamza Yusuf commented that ‘reducing Shariah down to the punishments is like reducing the US judicial system down to the electric chair’. Any scholar with enough years of study can issue a fatwa (opinion) and it is not binding on anyone other than the one who chooses to follow it. Shariah considers context, time and place in its rulings. It is not uniform, what is considered an obligation/binding on one person may be prohibited for another. Rulings are made on a case-by-case basis. The principles behind Shariah remain the same but the applications are widely varied depending on a lot of different things including time, place, ect. The only people who attempted to formalize and codify shariah were the British with their colonies when they created the ‘Anglo-Muhammadan Law’ in an attempt to better control the law . Because of the very nature of Shariah law, a simplistic comparison to other legal systems will for the most part always be misleading. In fact, most Muslims have a very basic understanding of Shariah law, and that is another problem as well.....

ISIS beheads their victims because they are following the Quran and Mohammed. They say it in the videos.

While Shariah law is left to interpretation, is not the Quran gods law, the unaltered and direct words of God, as written by Muhammed, a human being? at least it is supposed to be that until it is not convenient.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

It is not hard to figure out what is going on, even though many on this board are stuck in a politically correct dc view.

The only solution is to follow the money, stop the Saudi funding of terrorist schools that preach Wahabism and hate. Expand our energy resources and tax the oil from SA to sky high levels. And confirm the fundamental separation of church and state and equal rights for women. Let the ME rot in never ending moslem on moslem violence. We need to stay out of there. Obama had it right but caved in. Bombing from the sky is lunacy. Stop all immigration from ME. Stop all travel from SA at american airports. We need to be smart and fight this cancer with economic warfare.

"The belief that the Quran is the unquestionable word of God is fundamental to the Islamic faith, and held by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, fundamentalist or progressive. Many of you believe that letting it go is as good as calling yourself non-Muslim. I get that. But does it have to be that way?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

Correction: Muslims do not believe that the Quran was written by Mohamed saw. We believe that it is the Word of God revealed to the Prophet saw through the angel Gabriel. Fun fact, Prophet Mohamed saw was actually illiterate, he couldn't read nor write, so yeh he didn't write the Quran, moving on.....Those verses that you cited have been debated over and over again on this forum, explanations have been provided, context has been provided, no need to rehash them over and over.

And the article that you quoted is from a self-proclaimed Atheist Muslim who is advising Muslims to disassociate "Islamic identity from Muslim identity by coming together on a sense of community, not ideology". The inference from such a statement is that the Islamic Identity is attributable to those few verses of the Noble Quran that seems to call for violence against all nonMuslims. Out of more than 6,000 verses in the Quran, he cited the verses the so called radical Muslims act upon and he used a simplified rhetoric to give the notion that these verses sum up the entire Islamic identity. What he and so many fail to understand, is that for the Muslims who embrace and understand this religion, Islam has never been wrong, we do not need to drift away from this ideology, from our Islamic identities to be decent citizens. The problem is, people who do not have a sound understanding of the religion itself, its scripture, or half/selective understanding and interpretations. That is the real danger!

Now, as for you, saying "ISIS beheads their victims because they are following the Quran and Mohammed", ISIS have successfully beaten you, their attempt at spreading fear has worked. You now think that they're greater in numbers than they are, and are a greater threat than they actually are. They have successfully "beheaded" you. Congratulations ISIS!

I recently stumbled on an excerpt of aTED talk by Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran". I think it sums up very well most misunderstandings that people have about the Quran. I haven't watched the full talk yet which is about 90minutes but will definitely do so. I for one, appreciated the sincerity, and humor in her approach. Here's the excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g#t=560
Now, as far as Shariah law is concerned, it is fluid and decentralized.The Muslim scholar Hamza Yusuf commented that ‘reducing Shariah down to the punishments is like reducing the US judicial system down to the electric chair’. Any scholar with enough years of study can issue a fatwa (opinion) and it is not binding on anyone other than the one who chooses to follow it. Shariah considers context, time and place in its rulings. It is not uniform, what is considered an obligation/binding on one person may be prohibited for another. Rulings are made on a case-by-case basis. The principles behind Shariah remain the same but the applications are widely varied depending on a lot of different things including time, place, ect. The only people who attempted to formalize and codify shariah were the British with their colonies when they created the ‘Anglo-Muhammadan Law’ in an attempt to better control the law . Because of the very nature of Shariah law, a simplistic comparison to other legal systems will for the most part always be misleading. In fact, most Muslims have a very basic understanding of Shariah law, and that is another problem as well.....

Anonymous wrote:I'm christian (catholic) and I have muslim friends, moreso when I lived in my home country. They'll send us food during their celebrations and we would send them food during ours. I do not think Islam is evil but believe it does condone terrorist acts. I also think it cultivates a cult like following. How else can you explain being willing to die because of your religion. This is where they have an upper hand in religious wars. How many Christian suicide bombers do you know?

That is contradictory. If Islam condoned Terrorism, it would clearly be evil.....Certainly, throughout history you can find many people who have been and still are willing to die for their beliefs regardless of what those beliefs were/are, religious or otherwise, Islam doesn't hold the monopoly on martyrdom.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reformatting my earlier post to make it clear to everyone how you define Islamophobe.

****

No, you made that up. I never, ever said the vast majority of Muslims are not peaceful. Your friend the moderator can verify. In fact I think the vast majority ARE peaceful.

Ergo, I never painted anyone with a broad brush. Ergo, I am not an Islamophobe.

Unless--according to one of your many other definitions of Islamophobia--it's Islamophobic to fail to agree that women's limited divorce, testimony and inheritance rights constitute "equal justice" for women and are in society's best interest.

Or unless, according to another one of your definitions of Islamophobia, it was Islamophobic to participate among the many other posters who cited Quranic verses and shariah against your personal interpretations of divorce and other laws, or who challenged you over maybe 10 pages (ten pages!) to provide stats backing up your conversion claims. I'm definitely a stickler for cites, legal rulings and stats as a way to understand what's going on in the rest of the world. I don't trust you enough to take your word on the weather, at this point. Sorry.

******

And a few more points. I studied Islam with a world expert on Islam, who went on to be president of a major university in the Middle East.

On the other hand, most of us don't trust you to interpret Islam as far as we can throw you. Let's look at your multiple lies (I haven't used that word so far, but I will now) on merely secular issues:
- your attempts to spin conversations,
- your insistence that you are arguing with a single person,
- your nonsense about converts to Islam exceeding immigrants. Even though *your own numbers* showed that was a ridiculously false claim, you STILL insisted it was true for pages afterwards. (Unbelievable.)
- when you told us you lived in Falls Church and the ride-on to the metro took two hours.

It doesn't help that, besides being caught in lies, you also come off as having the maturity of a 12-year-old. Nor do you have the self restraint to drop issues you should be able to foresee you will lose.

Sorry, but there are several of us who will challenge statements like "Islam gives a good deal to female captives" or "Islam provides equal rights to women" or "converts exceed immigrants."

Signed, poster you called angry bad cook, with the spouse who wants to divorce her, the kid who is into drugs and porn, and who secretly wants to convert to Islam

Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

Hahaha Glad you're back, Muslima. Now I'm curious, who this world class expert on Islam was. Was it osama bin laden?

I am also curious about the so called World class expert on Islam, which we both know shall remain nameless.... But hey, I'd even be ready to take off my burqa and do the monkey dance, Gangnam Style if he is named

Hahaha then I'd start wearing mine. I don't even wear hijab now. I want the name of that world class expert teaching hate. Which ivy school might it be? Lol lol

ahhha I don't wear a Burqa lol. Must be a poison-ivy School, because clearly, some minds got poisoned....

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

I liked my prof, this was at an American university before he was tapped for that post, so he's not UBL. And no, I don't feel like dragging his name through your special mudpit.

Suffice it to say that there are Muslims I trust to teach me about Islam. Including personal friends who are Muslims. But I would never trust you, with your track record of lies, insults and babyish antics, to even help me open a Quran.

Do your religion a favor and stop claiming that we need you to interpret it for us. (And hey, I thought Islam boasts it's more accessible than other religions because you can read the Quran without a cleric helping you interpret it?)

You have some deep trust issues....Repeat after me "Woossaaaa" 'Wossaaa" now take a big breath and let it go....Don't let them in, don't let them see.. Be the good girl you always have to be.Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know...Well, now they know! Let it go, let it go!!!!!!!!

When people lie to me--like you have, by using the word "equality" in a way you know is misleading--then I don't trust them. Many others have also accused you of lying. This seems to be a recurring problem for you.

Yeh everybody lies to you, must be tough being you I empathize, it is hard to trust after going through something like this. May God give you the strength to get over it and let it go, let it go

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Go ask your Muslim friends you trust for answers. Why ask Muslima? You just got through saying you don't trust her word. More proof that all you want is to pick fights and vilify Islam.

Forcing you to clarify what you mean by "equality" is much, much different from "vilifying Islam." Don't be such an @ss. Go read that Huffington article again.

Meanwhile, please explain why you think its OK that you and Muslima are tossing around words like "equality" that you know, you just know, are being misinterpreted by non-Muslim readers to mean equality as they know it.

You did not force anything. That was clarified pages ago, can't help if you can't read, can't help if you keep repeating the same thing over and over again.. Why do you want her to go read an article written by a self-proclaimed "Atheist Muslim" or is that the so called world class Islam expert you were referring to?... Okayy.... And there is only person here being an @ss and I can assure you it's not her

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

I liked my prof, this was at an American university before he was tapped for that post, so he's not UBL. And no, I don't feel like dragging his name through your special mudpit.

Suffice it to say that there are Muslims I trust to teach me about Islam. Including personal friends who are Muslims. But I would never trust you, with your track record of lies, insults and babyish antics, to even help me open a Quran.

Do your religion a favor and stop claiming that we need you to interpret it for us. (And hey, I thought Islam boasts it's more accessible than other religions because you can read the Quran without a cleric helping you interpret it?)

You have some deep trust issues....Repeat after me "Woossaaaa" 'Wossaaa" now take a big breath and let it go....Don't let them in, don't let them see.. Be the good girl you always have to be.Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know...Well, now they know! Let it go, let it go!!!!!!!!