Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You remind me of Humpty-Dumpty who said the word means whatever he wants it to mean. Equality doesn't mean whatever you need it to mean to work with your argument. That women and men are equal "in the eyes of Allah" doesn't mean they have equality.

Here is the gist of your argument: the set of rights and responsibilities granted to men ankd women under Shariah is complementary and they work together.

That's cool. That doesn't mean they are "equal". Your argument would be better served if you just said that the roles of men and women in Islam are different from the Western views, and that works for Muslims. Rather than argue that they are "equal", knowing full well that this isn't true, and that the West should agree with this interpretation. You're fighting a losing battle.

Thank you. I started to write exactly this: an effective argument would go something along the lines of, "Women and men have different roles in Islam than in the West, and Islamic laws reflect this. Muslims appreciate these rules, which create the Muslim society that they want to live in."

By contrast, when you simply say, "Women are treated equally under Islam," you're deliberately using the word "equally" in a way that you know is understood very differently by your listeners. That's why the accusations of deception. That's what provoked the 20 pages detailing the actual laws, which you complain so much about.

Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

Don't be ridiculous.

Muslima and you both understand very well that the word "equality" is commonly used in the West to mean equal treatment in all aspects of marriage and the law. Your feigned shock, that non-Muslims living in a secular country should understand how Muslims use the word "equal," is laughable. It's like expecting you to understand Christian or Jewish words that are freighted with particularly Christian and Jewish meanings.

Yes, we know you're not Muslima by the insults. You must by Abusive Muslim. We get it, your little conversion effort failed, and now you're po'd.

Anonymous wrote:
I am chuckling that you think most Muslims are not like me. I wrote for an Islamic publication here in the US. I was in contact with many well known scholars in this country and Canada. I will be seeking a job soon at an international firm that specializes in Islamic relations with nonMuslims. But, continue because your posts are at least amusing

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Muslima wrote:
You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

You aren't talking to Muslim women. You are talking to majority non-Muslim women.

Secondly, you don't speak for all Muslim women and you have no idea what the totality of them think. Have you met them all? Do you know what ALL of them think? You don't know what a Muslim woman's idea of equality is because there is no such thing as A Muslim Woman. There's women, millions of them, all with their own ideas that don't come out of your little factory.

I have met Muslim women who were distraught by the treatment of courts and judges who wouldn't grant them divorces from their abusive husbands, recommending lots of sabr instead.

I have met Muslim divorced women who kept their new relationships secret out of fear of losing custody of their children if they remarry.

I have met Muslim women and children, both small and grown, shattered by additional marriages their fathers and husbands chose to contract, sometimes in secret from the first families.

I have met Muslim women who had to bribe their drug addict husbands so that they would agree to khul separations.

I have met Muslim women angered by unilateral custody decisions that kept them away from their children, sanctioned by courts.

You don't speak for all Muslim women. You simply have no idea of the diversity of opinions and situations that exist for women in Muslim-majority countries.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am chuckling that you think most Muslims are not like me. I wrote for an Islamic publication here in the US. I was in contact with many well known scholars in this country and Canada. I will be seeking a job soon at an international firm that specializes in Islamic relations with nonMuslims. But, continue because your posts are at least amusing

OMG that's the funniest thing I've read all day.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Provide proof of Muslim women voting 1400 years ago. Actually, provide proof of anybody Muslim voting 1400 years ago. The majority of Muslim rulers throughout history have not been selected by voting, whether by males or females.

You need a dictionary to tell you what "equal" means. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You remind me of Humpty-Dumpty who said the word means whatever he wants it to mean. Equality doesn't mean whatever you need it to mean to work with your argument. That women and men are equal "in the eyes of Allah" doesn't mean they have equality.

Here is the gist of your argument: the set of rights and responsibilities granted to men ankd women under Shariah is complementary and they work together.

That's cool. That doesn't mean they are "equal". Your argument would be better served if you just said that the roles of men and women in Islam are different from the Western views, and that works for Muslims. Rather than argue that they are "equal", knowing full well that this isn't true, and that the West should agree with this interpretation. You're fighting a losing battle.

Thank you. I started to write exactly this: an effective argument would go something along the lines of, "Women and men have different roles in Islam than in the West, and Islamic laws reflect this. Muslims appreciate these rules, which create the Muslim society that they want to live in."

By contrast, when you simply say, "Women are treated equally under Islam," you're deliberately using the word "equally" in a way that you know is understood very differently by your listeners. That's why the accusations of deception. That's what provoked the 20 pages detailing the actual laws, which you complain so much about.

Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

Don't be ridiculous.

Muslima and you both understand very well that the word "equality" is commonly used in the West to mean equal treatment in all aspects of marriage and the law. Your feigned shock, that non-Muslims living in a secular country should understand how Muslims use the word "equal," is laughable. It's like expecting you to understand Christian or Jewish words that are freighted with particularly Christian and Jewish meanings.

Yes, we know you're not Muslima by the insults. You must by Abusive Muslim. We get it, your little conversion effort failed, and now you're po'd.

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

You aren't talking to Muslim women. You are talking to majority non-Muslim women.

Secondly, you don't speak for all Muslim women and you have no idea what the totality of them think. Have you met them all? Do you know what ALL of them think? You don't know what a Muslim woman's idea of equality is because there is no such thing as A Muslim Woman. There's women, millions of them, all with their own ideas that don't come out of your little factory.

I have met Muslim women who were distraught by the treatment of courts and judges who wouldn't grant them divorces from their abusive husbands, recommending lots of sabr instead.

I have met Muslim divorced women who kept their new relationships secret out of fear of losing custody of their children if they remarry.

I have met Muslim women and children, both small and grown, shattered by additional marriages their fathers and husbands chose to contract, sometimes in secret from the first families.

I have met Muslim women who had to bribe their drug addict husbands so that they would agree to khul separations.

I have met Muslim women angered by unilateral custody decisions that kept them away from their children, sanctioned by courts.

You don't speak for all Muslim women. You simply have no idea of the diversity of opinions and situations that exist for women in Muslim-majority countries.

You say in one breath, there is no such thing as a Muslim Woman ( thank you for letting me know I don't exist, i had no idea ) to saying in your next break "i have met many muslim women" , so you actually have met women who don't exist? since there is no such a thing as a muslim woman.... How ridiculous can this get???
I guess you are the one who speaks for Muslim women then since she can't and she has no idea of the diversity of opinions and situations that exist for women in Muslim-majority countries, according to you , Wowzeeee! Next time i hear about a Muslim woman in distress, i will make sure to call you at 1-800-anonymous so you can save her life since you have met all these women women who were so angered and abused and needed help. Do you work at a Muslim Women Abuse Anonymous hotline? Geez! You are dense! The other muslim poster and I must live under a rock since we were not aware of all these Islamic abuses done to Muslim women, what a wake up call!!!!!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am chuckling that you think most Muslims are not like me. I wrote for an Islamic publication here in the US. I was in contact with many well known scholars in this country and Canada. I will be seeking a job soon at an international firm that specializes in Islamic relations with nonMuslims. But, continue because your posts are at least amusing

OMG that's the funniest thing I've read all day.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Provide proof of Muslim women voting 1400 years ago. Actually, provide proof of anybody Muslim voting 1400 years ago. The majority of Muslim rulers throughout history have not been selected by voting, whether by males or females.

You need a dictionary to tell you what "equal" means. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

+1. If I say red is blue, does that make it so? Can I call you Colorblindphobic if you don't agree with me?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Provide proof of Muslim women voting 1400 years ago. Actually, provide proof of anybody Muslim voting 1400 years ago. The majority of Muslim rulers throughout history have not been selected by voting, whether by males or females.

You need a dictionary to tell you what "equal" means. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

+1. If I say red is blue, does that make it so? Can I call you Colorblindphobic if you don't agree with me?

I'll work on getting those ballots from 1400 yrs ago as evidence for ya, islamophobe. I'll get right on it. Brilliant comeback though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz

Provide proof of Muslim women voting 1400 years ago. Actually, provide proof of anybody Muslim voting 1400 years ago. The majority of Muslim rulers throughout history have not been selected by voting, whether by males or females.

You need a dictionary to tell you what "equal" means. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

+1. If I say red is blue, does that make it so? Can I call you Colorblindphobic if you don't agree with me?

I'll work on getting those ballots from 1400 yrs ago as evidence for ya, islamophobe. I'll get right on it. Brilliant comeback though.

Anonymous wrote:
You?? The Equality Poster again???? Muslim women and Men are Equal, let me repeat again, we are Equal. I've said it again more than twice, maybe we need 20 more pages to get you to understand what Equality means . While men and women have equal rights in Islam, the specific rights and responsibilities granted to them are not identical, nobody ever said they were. Men and women have complementary rights and responsibilities.And don't you dare telling me you have the monopoly on what equality is Western equality you say??? Do I need to remind you that it is the very lack of equality in the WEST, of women's Rights that birthed the feminist movement? Just a few years ago , yeh years, not centuries, Women did not have the right to vote in the US. They got that right in 1920 after fighting tooth and nails, a right that was granted to Muslim women like 1400 years ago. Women in the West did not have the right to own property, only their husbands could The women had to struggle, a lot in the West for acquiring these rights, which Islam had given to them centuries ago. Oh and women still struggle for equal pay So don't tell me about western equality as the de facto notion of women's equality. Puh-Leezzzz