Anonymous wrote:I am with Larla's mom on this one, OP, and think you are probably a bit of a twat. I mean, look at the use of the word "snowflake" in your subject line. Who talks about children that way?

Are you in North Arlington, by any chance? Sounds like it.

Assume I did that intentionally, with a goal of ruffling feathers. Specifically yours.

And no, I'm not.

Assume a 4.5 hour gap between the meal and the end of school (it's less, but for argument's sake...).

Let's say the kids are somewhere around 8.

Listserv drama going around right now from the usual suspects, and I thought DCUM might have some feedback.

Larla's Mom is complaining (again). She claims that lunchtime is too early, and Dear Larla (DL) can't make it until the end of school w/o a snack. Larla's mom wants the teachers to stop instruction, and offer "a 5 minute snack break" an hour or so before school is out.

Assume DL doesn't have an actual medical need for additional calories (because she'd have a medical note on file already, and this wouldn't be everyone else's problem).

While the school lunch schedule does seem to have kids eating much earlier than they might in my home, they are offered a chance to eat during the day. They may have to learn to focus while slightly uncomfortable for a hour, but "I don't believe that having hungry children with a sugar low is conducive to a good learning environment" seems overwrought. Second, in what reality can an entire class of kids start and finish eating in 5 minutes? And who cleans up the inevitable mess? Third, what about kids who get school lunch and may not have a snack from home? Another Larla's Mom actually wrote "...teachers may need some support in providing for all (and in a way that takes food allergies into consideration)."

Am I just being betchy again, or is this some nonsense?

If this is your biggest complaint, your marriage is amazing and you should STFU and go love on your man.

If you let it, this forum would leave you believing that everyone's an abusive narcissist who cheats.

If you can remember that all humans are flawed, and that this is usually normal, not pathological, you can glean some useful info from this forum. If you're prone to snap judgments and/or easily triggered, this place is particularly toxic.

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:You say you'd feel devastated if he did this to you, but you have no guarantee he won't do this (or worse). What if his paranoia gets the better of him and he disappears with your kids "to keep them safe from The Man"? Mental instability is a major red flag, and this level of disconnect with reality is a safety issue. Unless there is some legitimacy to his claims (unlikely, but this is DC and the Clintons apparently off people all the time ), he is tuned to a totally different frequency than you and most normal people. Who knows that he's hearing/thinking, or what that broadcast may tell him to do. You aren't obligated to stick around to find out, and you definitely shouldn't leave your kids exposed to that influence. Think about it: if your babysitter/nanny were saying these things, you'd fire him/her so fast they'd be halfway home before they realized what hit 'em!

You have a job to do: protect your kids. This isn't about hurting your husband; it's not about his feelings at all. It's about protecting your children. Do your job. Get somewhere safe, with your kids, and then do what you can to help your spouse get the help he needs.

I don't envy your position. My ex is off his meds/rocker at the moment, so I understand how heartbreaking this can be. But don't let your love for him make you lose focus. Your kids need someone sane and stable at the helm right now. Do what you need to do to protect them and yourself.

Thank you PP! This is pretty much the message I get from everybody. But what about if I take the kids tomorrow and then he shows up at their school the next day and takes them? How can I protect them from possible drama and upheaval?

Contact an attorney, the police, your counselor, your doctor... Contact the family justice center in your area. Get a TRO, if you need one. Get an emergency custody order, pending litigation. I don't know where you are, or what the specifics are, so I don't know how best to help you, but one of those sources will. Do your best to document husband's behavior (seems you've already gone "on the record" with several people to do this already, which will help).

You may need to take time off work and keep the kids out of school until you get this dialed in. Where I am, the school must release the child to either parent unless there's a custody order saying otherwise. This is inconvenient, but that's a small price to pay for safety.

You say you'd feel devastated if he did this to you, but you have no guarantee he won't do this (or worse). What if his paranoia gets the better of him and he disappears with your kids "to keep them safe from The Man"? Mental instability is a major red flag, and this level of disconnect with reality is a safety issue. Unless there is some legitimacy to his claims (unlikely, but this is DC and the Clintons apparently off people all the time ), he is tuned to a totally different frequency than you and most normal people. Who knows that he's hearing/thinking, or what that broadcast may tell him to do. You aren't obligated to stick around to find out, and you definitely shouldn't leave your kids exposed to that influence. Think about it: if your babysitter/nanny were saying these things, you'd fire him/her so fast they'd be halfway home before they realized what hit 'em!

You have a job to do: protect your kids. This isn't about hurting your husband; it's not about his feelings at all. It's about protecting your children. Do your job. Get somewhere safe, with your kids, and then do what you can to help your spouse get the help he needs.

I don't envy your position. My ex is off his meds/rocker at the moment, so I understand how heartbreaking this can be. But don't let your love for him make you lose focus. Your kids need someone sane and stable at the helm right now. Do what you need to do to protect them and yourself.

I didn't say much to my kids (then 3 and 7) when ex left, mostly because he didn't say much about why he'd left and I honestly didn't know. But as time went on, and the emotional abuse kept happening (just from a distance, via email, etc.), my kids kept noticing the effects on me and they asked (and continue to ask) questions.

It's hard. I don't want to bash their dad, and I don't need to vent to my kids, but when they ask me honest questions (about anything), I've always tried to give them a full answer, and the answer here isn't "we mutually agreed that it was in our best interest to separate". I've shifted to giving them an age-appropriate version of the truth, just as I would for any other question.

When they ask me about sex, or bodily functions, or taboo topics, I give them an age-appropriate answer and try to help them find resources (books, mostly) that will inform them. Relationships are a human thing, and relationships ending will be something my kids will eventually experience, so why should this piece of their education be any different than the others?

Again, though- I work very hard to make sure that my answers are as impersonal/clinical as I can make them. This isn't about taking shots at ex. This is about informing and educating my kids, per their request(s).

If your kids don't understand the language, teach them.

Anonymous wrote:Not abuse. Not every instance of anger or disagreement is abuse, FFS.

+1

Don't people just argue anymore? Occasionally get angry and say things they don't mean? Anytime someone's spouse disagrees or dislikes something or has an opinion, someone on this board jumps to "ABUSE!!!" And the narrative is always "Meek, innocent, doormat spouse gets abused by Angry! Ogre! Monster! spouse". While I'm sure that dynamic does actually happen sometimes, I find it really improbable that it's happening as often as these threads would have us believe.

You don't have to wait for some sort of formal Notice of Abuse to tell your friend that you're concerned.

I was abused (emotionally, physically, financially, psychologically...) by my almost-ex husband. We're separated now. Honestly? If you'd told me "Hey, I think you may be being abused." or "That kind of manipulative headgame is abusive" I would've tried to defend my husband.

It would've been more helpful, for me at least, to have somebody say "You know, I've noticed you seem really edgy lately." Or "I haven't seen you around much lately. Everything okay?" or "You seem really stressed. What's up?" Then, when the truth of "well, my husband..." came out, rather than label his behavior as all-caps ABUSE!!!, say something like "That seems to be really troubling you. What can we do about it?"

Point being that many abused people will fight the label, which is counterproductive. But if you see patterns of behavior, that's not really something you can argue about.

Ultimately, it matters far less whether your friend is being "emotionally abused" or not, and far more whether or not she can thrive happily in this relationship.

Ditch the labels and focus on the problem(s) would be my advice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are asking the wrong person. What does your spouse say?

X 2

x3 This is a convo you have with your spouse (who is still legally your spouse) BEFORE you get with other people.

If hearing the details of the struggles of someone you love is such a struggle for you, perhaps you should consider some counseling for yourself first?

Sounds like you have some pretty permeable boundaries, and are kinda self-absorbed.

Try a lot of things. Learn a lot about a few of them, the ones you like best.

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Can you elaborate on how he was a using you ? Physical ? Emotional ?

I can sum up: He's a covert narcissist. On the surface, he seems like "such a nice guy". Hell, I dated and ultimately married him because he was so nice to me! But he wanted everything to be all about him. Anything I'd say about my thoughts/needs/feelings/wants/perspective was dismissed, derided, mocked, forgotten, etc. As long as I did everything and made him look/feel good, he was "happy" (in quotes, because I've come to believe he has very strange connections to his feelings, if he can even connect to them at all). But he had total control of our whole marriage. My being at-home and the full-time parent meant he had financial control from the start, and he used/abused that privilege (economic abuse is a very real thing). It also meant that it was very easy to keep me isolated and exhausted, doing 100% of the domestic work all the time while he went out, watched sports, etc. And any time I'd try to push back, or arrange to go out for myself, he'd sabotage my efforts, but it was subtle. He'd say things like "I thought you enjoyed doing all the laundry", which is nonsense on its face, but then even when I said I didn't, and that I needed some help, he didn't for years. He'd "accidentally" forget I had made plans, or would ask me to do multiple other tasks that sapped me of any energy I might've had to go out (which, with a newborn, was a tall order to begin with). He led me to believe that I was crazy, that it was my mental shortcomings/problems that created this dynamic, not his total selfishness and complete lack of supportive partnership behavior. And when I started to realize this, he'd tell me I was overreacting, being shrill, being a nag, not giving him enough space. He would deprive me of intimacy/affection, but then claim I wasn't affectionate enough with him. He had multiple affairs. He allowed other people to abuse me. He abused me, but now goes around telling people that *I* was the abuser, and he's the victim.

It's tough. It took me a decade to fully pierce the veil of "nice guy" he can put on. Of course, once I started to fight back and stand up for myself, he used that as evidence that I was the toxic party and mean and the problem... Now he claims really into social justice, the ethical society, non-violent communication and women's rights and stuff, even though he doesn't see his kids or even pretend to be a decent dad. He has basically quit our whole life and gone off to start a separate one. Like a new game. It's a horrible mind game, and really destabilizing, even still.

I just put my head down, work as hard as I can to keep his crazy away from my daughters, and grind so that I can have my independence and freedom from him.

WOW...this is dead on the scenario I see someone I know walking into. She has been told he is a know it all, hard to get to know and just a bit of an ass. But she has a kid and living with relatives and not working so she sees him as her savior. Reality is he is a narcissist from the core and he pretty much does the minimum for his own child and wants her to come in and take over housework and child care while he runs around in fancy cars. She is going to end up being the housekeeper with benefits. I feel bad for her but don't know her well enough to say something. Plus her best friend is telling her and she isn't listening.

If I had been a stronger woman, I wouldn't have stayed as long as I did. Not that I blame myself for his behavior, but I am somewhat complicit. That thing you said about "she sees him as her savior" is what is most problematic about this dynamic. This sort of person (male or female) preys on people who don't have the self-esteem to push back. And when you grow into your strength, they'll abandon you for an easier target. Calling them out on their behavior and pushing back ruins the game for them (eventually; they may escalate in various ways before letting go of their target)

What you said about how he wants her to do all the work while he does he own thing is exactly how my now-failed marriage worked. The "benefits" were slight, if any. He would "help" on occasion, but it was half-hearted at best (and frequently deliberately done wrong), only occurred at all after much sulking/pouting/complaining, and resulted in him acting like he deserved a medal and my undying gratitude for, you know, partnering like an actual partner for a time. Yes, for a time, my spouse did pay for things, though I never knew how much money he actually made, and had to ask/beg for "allowance" or any kind of budget increase. When he left, he failed to provide adequate support, all the while tasking me with all the work while he enjoyed his new life, which made earning my own money incredibly difficult at first (see previous re: economic abuse/control).

I strongly suggest all women who intend to SAH have an escape route in advance, including their own getaway funds, and ideally a pre- or post-nup offering additional protections. Not all men are abusive, neglectful jerks who live for themselves and don't value the contributions and advantages of an at-home parent, but some of them are. And if you're unlucky enough to have one (which you may not know until the kid(s) are born), you need to be able to extricate yourself from that situation. Even once I knew things were deeply problematic, I had to stay because I had no other option, save welfare. I chose to take the damage rather than put my kids through that.

The mess it does to your head is probably the hardest part. The patterns emerge if you start keeping records and keeping conversations in writing, but it's subtle, and it's easy to doubt yourself, especially if you don't have great self-esteem to begin with. Also, because he got/gets to go out and be social and meet people/make friends while I did/do all the work, he essentially controls the narrative. So when he tells everyone that I'm so mentally-defective, can't be trusted to do my jobs, and I'm such an antisocial B, and he's so worried that I just can't take care of myself/the kids (though he left them in my care), he comes across looking like the good guy/concerned partner. If only everyone knew that he's the abuser who created those dynamics!

Again, I keep my head down, I keep my kids safe, and I grind. It's all I can do at this point. That, and warn others.

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Can you elaborate on how he was a using you ? Physical ? Emotional ?

I can sum up: He's a covert narcissist. On the surface, he seems like "such a nice guy". Hell, I dated and ultimately married him because he was so nice to me! But he wanted everything to be all about him. Anything I'd say about my thoughts/needs/feelings/wants/perspective was dismissed, derided, mocked, forgotten, etc. As long as I did everything and made him look/feel good, he was "happy" (in quotes, because I've come to believe he has very strange connections to his feelings, if he can even connect to them at all). But he had total control of our whole marriage. My being at-home and the full-time parent meant he had financial control from the start, and he used/abused that privilege (economic abuse is a very real thing). It also meant that it was very easy to keep me isolated and exhausted, doing 100% of the domestic work all the time while he went out, watched sports, etc. And any time I'd try to push back, or arrange to go out for myself, he'd sabotage my efforts, but it was subtle. He'd say things like "I thought you enjoyed doing all the laundry", which is nonsense on its face, but then even when I said I didn't, and that I needed some help, he didn't for years. He'd "accidentally" forget I had made plans, or would ask me to do multiple other tasks that sapped me of any energy I might've had to go out (which, with a newborn, was a tall order to begin with). He led me to believe that I was crazy, that it was my mental shortcomings/problems that created this dynamic, not his total selfishness and complete lack of supportive partnership behavior. And when I started to realize this, he'd tell me I was overreacting, being shrill, being a nag, not giving him enough space. He would deprive me of intimacy/affection, but then claim I wasn't affectionate enough with him. He had multiple affairs. He allowed other people to abuse me. He abused me, but now goes around telling people that *I* was the abuser, and he's the victim.

It's tough. It took me a decade to fully pierce the veil of "nice guy" he can put on. Of course, once I started to fight back and stand up for myself, he used that as evidence that I was the toxic party and mean and the problem... Now he claims really into social justice, the ethical society, non-violent communication and women's rights and stuff, even though he doesn't see his kids or even pretend to be a decent dad. He has basically quit our whole life and gone off to start a separate one. Like a new game. It's a horrible mind game, and really destabilizing, even still.

I just put my head down, work as hard as I can to keep his crazy away from my daughters, and grind so that I can have my independence and freedom from him.