ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Can you elaborate on how he was a using you ? Physical ? Emotional ?

I can sum up: He's a covert narcissist. On the surface, he seems like "such a nice guy". Hell, I dated and ultimately married him because he was so nice to me! But he wanted everything to be all about him. Anything I'd say about my thoughts/needs/feelings/wants/perspective was dismissed, derided, mocked, forgotten, etc. As long as I did everything and made him look/feel good, he was "happy" (in quotes, because I've come to believe he has very strange connections to his feelings, if he can even connect to them at all). But he had total control of our whole marriage. My being at-home and the full-time parent meant he had financial control from the start, and he used/abused that privilege (economic abuse is a very real thing). It also meant that it was very easy to keep me isolated and exhausted, doing 100% of the domestic work all the time while he went out, watched sports, etc. And any time I'd try to push back, or arrange to go out for myself, he'd sabotage my efforts, but it was subtle. He'd say things like "I thought you enjoyed doing all the laundry", which is nonsense on its face, but then even when I said I didn't, and that I needed some help, he didn't for years. He'd "accidentally" forget I had made plans, or would ask me to do multiple other tasks that sapped me of any energy I might've had to go out (which, with a newborn, was a tall order to begin with). He led me to believe that I was crazy, that it was my mental shortcomings/problems that created this dynamic, not his total selfishness and complete lack of supportive partnership behavior. And when I started to realize this, he'd tell me I was overreacting, being shrill, being a nag, not giving him enough space. He would deprive me of intimacy/affection, but then claim I wasn't affectionate enough with him. He had multiple affairs. He allowed other people to abuse me. He abused me, but now goes around telling people that *I* was the abuser, and he's the victim.

It's tough. It took me a decade to fully pierce the veil of "nice guy" he can put on. Of course, once I started to fight back and stand up for myself, he used that as evidence that I was the toxic party and mean and the problem... Now he claims really into social justice, the ethical society, non-violent communication and women's rights and stuff, even though he doesn't see his kids or even pretend to be a decent dad. He has basically quit our whole life and gone off to start a separate one. Like a new game. It's a horrible mind game, and really destabilizing, even still.

I just put my head down, work as hard as I can to keep his crazy away from my daughters, and grind so that I can have my independence and freedom from him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

You don't go from happy to divorced in 15 months, in the afterglow of pregnancy and new baby.

Nap here. Afterglow? Pregnancy and the newborn phase were the absolute worst times in my marriage and my husband emotionally abandoned me. I don't think that's too uncommon. Many marriages don't survive.

No kidding. Afterglow? Try the deep dark nashing of teeth time. The upside down realm from Stranger Things. The afterburn - maybe.

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Can you elaborate on how he was a using you ? Physical ? Emotional ?

I can sum up: He's a covert narcissist. On the surface, he seems like "such a nice guy". Hell, I dated and ultimately married him because he was so nice to me! But he wanted everything to be all about him. Anything I'd say about my thoughts/needs/feelings/wants/perspective was dismissed, derided, mocked, forgotten, etc. As long as I did everything and made him look/feel good, he was "happy" (in quotes, because I've come to believe he has very strange connections to his feelings, if he can even connect to them at all). But he had total control of our whole marriage. My being at-home and the full-time parent meant he had financial control from the start, and he used/abused that privilege (economic abuse is a very real thing). It also meant that it was very easy to keep me isolated and exhausted, doing 100% of the domestic work all the time while he went out, watched sports, etc. And any time I'd try to push back, or arrange to go out for myself, he'd sabotage my efforts, but it was subtle. He'd say things like "I thought you enjoyed doing all the laundry", which is nonsense on its face, but then even when I said I didn't, and that I needed some help, he didn't for years. He'd "accidentally" forget I had made plans, or would ask me to do multiple other tasks that sapped me of any energy I might've had to go out (which, with a newborn, was a tall order to begin with). He led me to believe that I was crazy, that it was my mental shortcomings/problems that created this dynamic, not his total selfishness and complete lack of supportive partnership behavior. And when I started to realize this, he'd tell me I was overreacting, being shrill, being a nag, not giving him enough space. He would deprive me of intimacy/affection, but then claim I wasn't affectionate enough with him. He had multiple affairs. He allowed other people to abuse me. He abused me, but now goes around telling people that *I* was the abuser, and he's the victim.

It's tough. It took me a decade to fully pierce the veil of "nice guy" he can put on. Of course, once I started to fight back and stand up for myself, he used that as evidence that I was the toxic party and mean and the problem... Now he claims really into social justice, the ethical society, non-violent communication and women's rights and stuff, even though he doesn't see his kids or even pretend to be a decent dad. He has basically quit our whole life and gone off to start a separate one. Like a new game. It's a horrible mind game, and really destabilizing, even still.

I just put my head down, work as hard as I can to keep his crazy away from my daughters, and grind so that I can have my independence and freedom from him.

WOW...this is dead on the scenario I see someone I know walking into. She has been told he is a know it all, hard to get to know and just a bit of an ass. But she has a kid and living with relatives and not working so she sees him as her savior. Reality is he is a narcissist from the core and he pretty much does the minimum for his own child and wants her to come in and take over housework and child care while he runs around in fancy cars. She is going to end up being the housekeeper with benefits. I feel bad for her but don't know her well enough to say something. Plus her best friend is telling her and she isn't listening.

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Can you elaborate on how he was a using you ? Physical ? Emotional ?

I can sum up: He's a covert narcissist. On the surface, he seems like "such a nice guy". Hell, I dated and ultimately married him because he was so nice to me! But he wanted everything to be all about him. Anything I'd say about my thoughts/needs/feelings/wants/perspective was dismissed, derided, mocked, forgotten, etc. As long as I did everything and made him look/feel good, he was "happy" (in quotes, because I've come to believe he has very strange connections to his feelings, if he can even connect to them at all). But he had total control of our whole marriage. My being at-home and the full-time parent meant he had financial control from the start, and he used/abused that privilege (economic abuse is a very real thing). It also meant that it was very easy to keep me isolated and exhausted, doing 100% of the domestic work all the time while he went out, watched sports, etc. And any time I'd try to push back, or arrange to go out for myself, he'd sabotage my efforts, but it was subtle. He'd say things like "I thought you enjoyed doing all the laundry", which is nonsense on its face, but then even when I said I didn't, and that I needed some help, he didn't for years. He'd "accidentally" forget I had made plans, or would ask me to do multiple other tasks that sapped me of any energy I might've had to go out (which, with a newborn, was a tall order to begin with). He led me to believe that I was crazy, that it was my mental shortcomings/problems that created this dynamic, not his total selfishness and complete lack of supportive partnership behavior. And when I started to realize this, he'd tell me I was overreacting, being shrill, being a nag, not giving him enough space. He would deprive me of intimacy/affection, but then claim I wasn't affectionate enough with him. He had multiple affairs. He allowed other people to abuse me. He abused me, but now goes around telling people that *I* was the abuser, and he's the victim.

It's tough. It took me a decade to fully pierce the veil of "nice guy" he can put on. Of course, once I started to fight back and stand up for myself, he used that as evidence that I was the toxic party and mean and the problem... Now he claims really into social justice, the ethical society, non-violent communication and women's rights and stuff, even though he doesn't see his kids or even pretend to be a decent dad. He has basically quit our whole life and gone off to start a separate one. Like a new game. It's a horrible mind game, and really destabilizing, even still.

I just put my head down, work as hard as I can to keep his crazy away from my daughters, and grind so that I can have my independence and freedom from him.

WOW...this is dead on the scenario I see someone I know walking into. She has been told he is a know it all, hard to get to know and just a bit of an ass. But she has a kid and living with relatives and not working so she sees him as her savior. Reality is he is a narcissist from the core and he pretty much does the minimum for his own child and wants her to come in and take over housework and child care while he runs around in fancy cars. She is going to end up being the housekeeper with benefits. I feel bad for her but don't know her well enough to say something. Plus her best friend is telling her and she isn't listening.

If I had been a stronger woman, I wouldn't have stayed as long as I did. Not that I blame myself for his behavior, but I am somewhat complicit. That thing you said about "she sees him as her savior" is what is most problematic about this dynamic. This sort of person (male or female) preys on people who don't have the self-esteem to push back. And when you grow into your strength, they'll abandon you for an easier target. Calling them out on their behavior and pushing back ruins the game for them (eventually; they may escalate in various ways before letting go of their target)

What you said about how he wants her to do all the work while he does he own thing is exactly how my now-failed marriage worked. The "benefits" were slight, if any. He would "help" on occasion, but it was half-hearted at best (and frequently deliberately done wrong), only occurred at all after much sulking/pouting/complaining, and resulted in him acting like he deserved a medal and my undying gratitude for, you know, partnering like an actual partner for a time. Yes, for a time, my spouse did pay for things, though I never knew how much money he actually made, and had to ask/beg for "allowance" or any kind of budget increase. When he left, he failed to provide adequate support, all the while tasking me with all the work while he enjoyed his new life, which made earning my own money incredibly difficult at first (see previous re: economic abuse/control).

I strongly suggest all women who intend to SAH have an escape route in advance, including their own getaway funds, and ideally a pre- or post-nup offering additional protections. Not all men are abusive, neglectful jerks who live for themselves and don't value the contributions and advantages of an at-home parent, but some of them are. And if you're unlucky enough to have one (which you may not know until the kid(s) are born), you need to be able to extricate yourself from that situation. Even once I knew things were deeply problematic, I had to stay because I had no other option, save welfare. I chose to take the damage rather than put my kids through that.

The mess it does to your head is probably the hardest part. The patterns emerge if you start keeping records and keeping conversations in writing, but it's subtle, and it's easy to doubt yourself, especially if you don't have great self-esteem to begin with. Also, because he got/gets to go out and be social and meet people/make friends while I did/do all the work, he essentially controls the narrative. So when he tells everyone that I'm so mentally-defective, can't be trusted to do my jobs, and I'm such an antisocial B, and he's so worried that I just can't take care of myself/the kids (though he left them in my care), he comes across looking like the good guy/concerned partner. If only everyone knew that he's the abuser who created those dynamics!

Again, I keep my head down, I keep my kids safe, and I grind. It's all I can do at this point. That, and warn others.

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Anonymous wrote:Hard.

Was home for 15years. I gothink a job in retail, as the world has passed me by while I was raising our kids. Rented a townhouse and sub let the basement for extra money. In the meantime, exDH was supposed to pay support, but lost his job and sank into a deep depression and never recovered. He could no longer pay and was living with family. He basically abandoned us. I sued him over and over in court, but you can't get blood from a rock. Rather than throw him in jail, which could have easily happened, but would have done nothing to improve my situation, I just trudged forward on $12/hr and 3 teens. My kids all got jobs, because that was the only way they could get clothes or basically anything, including school supplies. We banned together. It was awful.

Luckily I ended up remarried to someone who is well off because I maintained my looks. It's shameful, but that's what happened and once again I'm dependent. Nobody will admit to it, but there are many women out there just like me. It's not pretty. If I could tell my 23yr old self something, I'd tell her to have kept working and NEVER depend on someone else. I'd tell her to do it for her kids.

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Can you elaborate on how he was a using you ? Physical ? Emotional ?

I can sum up: He's a covert narcissist. On the surface, he seems like "such a nice guy". Hell, I dated and ultimately married him because he was so nice to me! But he wanted everything to be all about him. Anything I'd say about my thoughts/needs/feelings/wants/perspective was dismissed, derided, mocked, forgotten, etc. As long as I did everything and made him look/feel good, he was "happy" (in quotes, because I've come to believe he has very strange connections to his feelings, if he can even connect to them at all). But he had total control of our whole marriage. My being at-home and the full-time parent meant he had financial control from the start, and he used/abused that privilege (economic abuse is a very real thing). It also meant that it was very easy to keep me isolated and exhausted, doing 100% of the domestic work all the time while he went out, watched sports, etc. And any time I'd try to push back, or arrange to go out for myself, he'd sabotage my efforts, but it was subtle. He'd say things like "I thought you enjoyed doing all the laundry", which is nonsense on its face, but then even when I said I didn't, and that I needed some help, he didn't for years. He'd "accidentally" forget I had made plans, or would ask me to do multiple other tasks that sapped me of any energy I might've had to go out (which, with a newborn, was a tall order to begin with). He led me to believe that I was crazy, that it was my mental shortcomings/problems that created this dynamic, not his total selfishness and complete lack of supportive partnership behavior. And when I started to realize this, he'd tell me I was overreacting, being shrill, being a nag, not giving him enough space. He would deprive me of intimacy/affection, but then claim I wasn't affectionate enough with him. He had multiple affairs. He allowed other people to abuse me. He abused me, but now goes around telling people that *I* was the abuser, and he's the victim.

It's tough. It took me a decade to fully pierce the veil of "nice guy" he can put on. Of course, once I started to fight back and stand up for myself, he used that as evidence that I was the toxic party and mean and the problem... Now he claims really into social justice, the ethical society, non-violent communication and women's rights and stuff, even though he doesn't see his kids or even pretend to be a decent dad. He has basically quit our whole life and gone off to start a separate one. Like a new game. It's a horrible mind game, and really destabilizing, even still.

I just put my head down, work as hard as I can to keep his crazy away from my daughters, and grind so that I can have my independence and freedom from him.

WOW...this is dead on the scenario I see someone I know walking into. She has been told he is a know it all, hard to get to know and just a bit of an ass. But she has a kid and living with relatives and not working so she sees him as her savior. Reality is he is a narcissist from the core and he pretty much does the minimum for his own child and wants her to come in and take over housework and child care while he runs around in fancy cars. She is going to end up being the housekeeper with benefits. I feel bad for her but don't know her well enough to say something. Plus her best friend is telling her and she isn't listening.

If I had been a stronger woman, I wouldn't have stayed as long as I did. Not that I blame myself for his behavior, but I am somewhat complicit. That thing you said about "she sees him as her savior" is what is most problematic about this dynamic. This sort of person (male or female) preys on people who don't have the self-esteem to push back. And when you grow into your strength, they'll abandon you for an easier target. Calling them out on their behavior and pushing back ruins the game for them (eventually; they may escalate in various ways before letting go of their target)

What you said about how he wants her to do all the work while he does he own thing is exactly how my now-failed marriage worked. The "benefits" were slight, if any. He would "help" on occasion, but it was half-hearted at best (and frequently deliberately done wrong), only occurred at all after much sulking/pouting/complaining, and resulted in him acting like he deserved a medal and my undying gratitude for, you know, partnering like an actual partner for a time. Yes, for a time, my spouse did pay for things, though I never knew how much money he actually made, and had to ask/beg for "allowance" or any kind of budget increase. When he left, he failed to provide adequate support, all the while tasking me with all the work while he enjoyed his new life, which made earning my own money incredibly difficult at first (see previous re: economic abuse/control).

I strongly suggest all women who intend to SAH have an escape route in advance, including their own getaway funds, and ideally a pre- or post-nup offering additional protections. Not all men are abusive, neglectful jerks who live for themselves and don't value the contributions and advantages of an at-home parent, but some of them are. And if you're unlucky enough to have one (which you may not know until the kid(s) are born), you need to be able to extricate yourself from that situation. Even once I knew things were deeply problematic, I had to stay because I had no other option, save welfare. I chose to take the damage rather than put my kids through that.

The mess it does to your head is probably the hardest part. The patterns emerge if you start keeping records and keeping conversations in writing, but it's subtle, and it's easy to doubt yourself, especially if you don't have great self-esteem to begin with. Also, because he got/gets to go out and be social and meet people/make friends while I did/do all the work, he essentially controls the narrative. So when he tells everyone that I'm so mentally-defective, can't be trusted to do my jobs, and I'm such an antisocial B, and he's so worried that I just can't take care of myself/the kids (though he left them in my care), he comes across looking like the good guy/concerned partner. If only everyone knew that he's the abuser who created those dynamics!

Again, I keep my head down, I keep my kids safe, and I grind. It's all I can do at this point. That, and warn others.

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ThatBetch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're already on the brink of divorce, why bring another child into the world?

When you're finished with your crystal ball, may I borrow it?

NP. You made it happily through however many years it takes to have three kids, but somehow things got that bad that fast? It's surprising.

Have you heard the one about the boiled frog?

Maybe, to an outsider, it's easy to spot abuse. To the person dealing with it, while also dealing with young children, a job, a household to manage, etc., it can be a bit less obvious. If he had started with level 10 abuse, like it was when it ended, it would've been a much shorter relationship. But that's not always how abuse works.

In the beginning, I thought I was overreacting, having trouble adjusting to married life, sleep-deprived because of the new baby, grieving the miscarriage(s), stressed from starting the new business, etc. There were plenty of "real life" excuses for why I might've been so exhausted, and second-guessing myself is a skill I brought to my marriage. Being a flawed human, I have my own insecurities, anxieties, etc. and I'm a decent enough person that I'd sooner admit those traits and fault myself than blame my partner. He claimed to love me. He said he was sorry. He promised he'd work on it...

It took years of unpacking to get to the heart of how messed up the dynamic was between us. I know some people think that SAH parents just sit around eating chips all day, but my experience was not nearly so leisurely. I didn't exactly have uninterrupted hours for navel-gazing and pondering the mess I was in. I had kids to parent, a home to manage, and a new business to try to get of the ground.

So no, it wasn't that it "got that bad that fast." It's that it takes time to see that the person claiming to love you doesn't, time to convince yourself that it's them and not you, and time to gather enough self-worth and trust to believe you'll be okay on your own (even more difficult if you've been isolated, at home, from support, and are financially dependent on your abuser).

Can you elaborate on how he was a using you ? Physical ? Emotional ?

I can sum up: He's a covert narcissist. On the surface, he seems like "such a nice guy". Hell, I dated and ultimately married him because he was so nice to me! But he wanted everything to be all about him. Anything I'd say about my thoughts/needs/feelings/wants/perspective was dismissed, derided, mocked, forgotten, etc. As long as I did everything and made him look/feel good, he was "happy" (in quotes, because I've come to believe he has very strange connections to his feelings, if he can even connect to them at all). But he had total control of our whole marriage. My being at-home and the full-time parent meant he had financial control from the start, and he used/abused that privilege (economic abuse is a very real thing). It also meant that it was very easy to keep me isolated and exhausted, doing 100% of the domestic work all the time while he went out, watched sports, etc. And any time I'd try to push back, or arrange to go out for myself, he'd sabotage my efforts, but it was subtle. He'd say things like "I thought you enjoyed doing all the laundry", which is nonsense on its face, but then even when I said I didn't, and that I needed some help, he didn't for years. He'd "accidentally" forget I had made plans, or would ask me to do multiple other tasks that sapped me of any energy I might've had to go out (which, with a newborn, was a tall order to begin with). He led me to believe that I was crazy, that it was my mental shortcomings/problems that created this dynamic, not his total selfishness and complete lack of supportive partnership behavior. And when I started to realize this, he'd tell me I was overreacting, being shrill, being a nag, not giving him enough space. He would deprive me of intimacy/affection, but then claim I wasn't affectionate enough with him. He had multiple affairs. He allowed other people to abuse me. He abused me, but now goes around telling people that *I* was the abuser, and he's the victim.

It's tough. It took me a decade to fully pierce the veil of "nice guy" he can put on. Of course, once I started to fight back and stand up for myself, he used that as evidence that I was the toxic party and mean and the problem... Now he claims really into social justice, the ethical society, non-violent communication and women's rights and stuff, even though he doesn't see his kids or even pretend to be a decent dad. He has basically quit our whole life and gone off to start a separate one. Like a new game. It's a horrible mind game, and really destabilizing, even still.

I just put my head down, work as hard as I can to keep his crazy away from my daughters, and grind so that I can have my independence and freedom from him.

WOW...this is dead on the scenario I see someone I know walking into. She has been told he is a know it all, hard to get to know and just a bit of an ass. But she has a kid and living with relatives and not working so she sees him as her savior. Reality is he is a narcissist from the core and he pretty much does the minimum for his own child and wants her to come in and take over housework and child care while he runs around in fancy cars. She is going to end up being the housekeeper with benefits. I feel bad for her but don't know her well enough to say something. Plus her best friend is telling her and she isn't listening.

If I had been a stronger woman, I wouldn't have stayed as long as I did. Not that I blame myself for his behavior, but I am somewhat complicit. That thing you said about "she sees him as her savior" is what is most problematic about this dynamic. This sort of person (male or female) preys on people who don't have the self-esteem to push back. And when you grow into your strength, they'll abandon you for an easier target. Calling them out on their behavior and pushing back ruins the game for them (eventually; they may escalate in various ways before letting go of their target)

What you said about how he wants her to do all the work while he does he own thing is exactly how my now-failed marriage worked. The "benefits" were slight, if any. He would "help" on occasion, but it was half-hearted at best (and frequently deliberately done wrong), only occurred at all after much sulking/pouting/complaining, and resulted in him acting like he deserved a medal and my undying gratitude for, you know, partnering like an actual partner for a time. Yes, for a time, my spouse did pay for things, though I never knew how much money he actually made, and had to ask/beg for "allowance" or any kind of budget increase. When he left, he failed to provide adequate support, all the while tasking me with all the work while he enjoyed his new life, which made earning my own money incredibly difficult at first (see previous re: economic abuse/control).

I strongly suggest all women who intend to SAH have an escape route in advance, including their own getaway funds, and ideally a pre- or post-nup offering additional protections. Not all men are abusive, neglectful jerks who live for themselves and don't value the contributions and advantages of an at-home parent, but some of them are. And if you're unlucky enough to have one (which you may not know until the kid(s) are born), you need to be able to extricate yourself from that situation. Even once I knew things were deeply problematic, I had to stay because I had no other option, save welfare. I chose to take the damage rather than put my kids through that.

The mess it does to your head is probably the hardest part. The patterns emerge if you start keeping records and keeping conversations in writing, but it's subtle, and it's easy to doubt yourself, especially if you don't have great self-esteem to begin with. Also, because he got/gets to go out and be social and meet people/make friends while I did/do all the work, he essentially controls the narrative. So when he tells everyone that I'm so mentally-defective, can't be trusted to do my jobs, and I'm such an antisocial B, and he's so worried that I just can't take care of myself/the kids (though he left them in my care), he comes across looking like the good guy/concerned partner. If only everyone knew that he's the abuser who created those dynamics!

Again, I keep my head down, I keep my kids safe, and I grind. It's all I can do at this point. That, and warn others.

New poster. Wow, I could have written this. ALL OF IT. Wow.