SAHM vs WOHM, why the strong feelings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was fully able to care for my dad because of my vast accrued leave and flexible hours.

My sister also was because she invoked the FMLA leave (family medical care act).

You can still work and care for your family.

How does this address OP’s question?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was fully able to care for my dad because of my vast accrued leave and flexible hours.

My sister also was because she invoked the FMLA leave (family medical care act).

You can still work and care for your family.

How does this address OP’s question?

OP didn't actually pose a question. She pick a title and then discussed her own opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what this is ab,out either, OP. Sure there are some people who truly SAH 100% of the time. And there are some people who are WOH 60+ hours/wk + travel. But most people do something in between and are more similar than they are different.

SAHM's use an average of 15-20 hours/wk of childcare, whether it's preschool, grandparents, or a hired babysitter.
WOHM's use an average of 35 hours/wk of childcare.
All moms of young children spend an average of 100 hours/wk working in and out of the home.

Most of us are spending nearly all of our time doing the same thing. The WOHM vs SAHM debate is mostly fabricated.

This is hilariously out of touch.

+1 what? where are you getting this "average" number of 15-20 hrs? I SAH and I have a 4 yo and 1 yo. At the MAX, when my daughter was in preschool last year, she was gone for 12 hrs/wk.... but I had a baby at home, so not sure what that counts as. If she'd gone to preschool this year, it would've been between 9 and 16 hrs a wk, but again, my baby would've been at home with me.
And no, staying home with children and being at work are not the same thing. Do you think being a daycare worker and working in an office are the same thing?

Pp here. It’s from a survey done several years ago. I have a hard copy of it filed somewhere, but can’t find it right now.
And it’s an average.
For every mom who has their children 100% of the time, there is one who trades off childcare with a neighbor or has kids who go to visit grandparents every weekend.

Visiting family on the weekends isn’t childcare. That’s what families do. Your former example sounds more like a reciprocal play date.

Ok. If you don’t think that friends, family members, or preschool can provide childcare, then you aren’t going to care for this survey.

That’s not what I said, and yes I would like to see the survey.

Great. Then you can look it up and pay for it. I am almost positive that it isn’t free, or I wouldn’t have printed it out.

[Explorergirl]

Honestly? Most women I know do not have strong feelings on this. I dont. I think the only people that do are the ones that are insecure in their decision and feel the need to justify it or those who feel judged.

[Anonymous]

5 years ago I might have participated in this lively discussion but right now IDGAF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what this is ab,out either, OP. Sure there are some people who truly SAH 100% of the time. And there are some people who are WOH 60+ hours/wk + travel. But most people do something in between and are more similar than they are different.

SAHM's use an average of 15-20 hours/wk of childcare, whether it's preschool, grandparents, or a hired babysitter.
WOHM's use an average of 35 hours/wk of childcare.
All moms of young children spend an average of 100 hours/wk working in and out of the home.

Most of us are spending nearly all of our time doing the same thing. The WOHM vs SAHM debate is mostly fabricated.

This is hilariously out of touch.

+1 what? where are you getting this "average" number of 15-20 hrs? I SAH and I have a 4 yo and 1 yo. At the MAX, when my daughter was in preschool last year, she was gone for 12 hrs/wk.... but I had a baby at home, so not sure what that counts as. If she'd gone to preschool this year, it would've been between 9 and 16 hrs a wk, but again, my baby would've been at home with me.
And no, staying home with children and being at work are not the same thing. Do you think being a daycare worker and working in an office are the same thing?

Pp here. It’s from a survey done several years ago. I have a hard copy of it filed somewhere, but can’t find it right now.
And it’s an average.
For every mom who has their children 100% of the time, there is one who trades off childcare with a neighbor or has kids who go to visit grandparents every weekend.

Visiting family on the weekends isn’t childcare. That’s what families do. Your former example sounds more like a reciprocal play date.

Ok. If you don’t think that friends, family members, or preschool can provide childcare, then you aren’t going to care for this survey.

That’s not what I said, and yes I would like to see the survey.

Great. Then you can look it up and pay for it. I am almost positive that it isn’t free, or I wouldn’t have printed it out.

DP but what kind of weirdo prints out and saves such a survey?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't get it. Right now I'm a stay at home mom because that is what is working for us right now. In a few years I would love to work part time (probably as a teacher).

I just don't get the need to form or take sides. I have friends who are doctors. Lawyers. Teachers. One doctor friend works 2 days a week and I consider her basically a sahm. My SAHM friends are just as smart and competent, but staying at home works better for them.

People and situations change over time. One day you might choose to stay at home for a year, or work for a while.

There's no one right way to do life or parenting. Some kids need a sah parent; most are just as happy in day care. Some husbands don't want to be involved in household decisions, others want to know what brand soap you use to wash dishes. Not everything needs to be either/ or.

For SAHM, saying “it’s what is working for us right now” doesn’t evoke strong feelings from me. It means it’s fluid, any choice is valid and perhaps in a different situation you might make a different choice and it’s a YMMV situation. When someone leads with “and I would never put my child in daycare, I strongly believe a parent should be home with the kids etc.”, that has changed the conversation in my mind to an implied criticism of other choices. If you truly believe a child can have a great childhood and be a contributing member of society if they go to daycare and have WOHM, why frame it as you have to be there for those things to occur?

Some of this is also the “provider” narrative with some of the DCUM debates. That there is a competition of how good of a guy you have and how worthy you must have been to get that guy based on either how much of a provider or how involved he is in the family life and division of labor in the household. The law firm partner who also coaches their kids sports teams and you see at school events and his wife is a SAHM with help - I just think - well she has it like that. There are lots of debates that can be had about the “provider” mindset, what if that doesn’t work for the guy, does that make him a bad guy?is it okay for the woman to be the provider. Does having the man as the provider mindset hold woman back either themselves or others. I’ve heard of someone choosing not to get rid of a guy that wasn’t doing his job well because he had “a family to provide for” while not giving a promotion to a woman because they said they didn’t have enough money for the raise. Is it okay for the woman to be the provider? I feel like people are still feeling their way around these questions and define what makes a good spouse and what makes a good parent without some of the gender defines roles. Some of the SAHM vs WOHM debates are an extension of these things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They both suck!

Work from home (WAH) is the best .

The arguments they use against each other don’t apply to me.

Something's gotta give.. you neglecting either your work or your kids.
Give it time, it will show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All this talk about rich non-working women —come on.

The vast majority in the DMV have salaries that can’t support/justify the cost of childcare so they stay home. Period.

They aren’t living this glamorous life.

They're not the people who get everyone all riled up, though, and what makes these threads run on to 20 + pages of attacks and rhetoric like "useless leeches".

I've definitely seen wealthy SAHMs on DCUM tell poorer working women who have to work they aren't raising their kids.

I’m a sahm and I don’t think that. I do think that most working moms (higher earning ones too) are wage slaves though, and the fact that they need to work to maintain their lifestyles is sad. Yes, I am judgmental.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't get it. Right now I'm a stay at home mom because that is what is working for us right now. In a few years I would love to work part time (probably as a teacher).

I just don't get the need to form or take sides. I have friends who are doctors. Lawyers. Teachers. One doctor friend works 2 days a week and I consider her basically a sahm. My SAHM friends are just as smart and competent, but staying at home works better for them.

People and situations change over time. One day you might choose to stay at home for a year, or work for a while.

There's no one right way to do life or parenting. Some kids need a sah parent; most are just as happy in day care. Some husbands don't want to be involved in household decisions, others want to know what brand soap you use to wash dishes. Not everything needs to be either/ or.

For SAHM, saying “it’s what is working for us right now” doesn’t evoke strong feelings from me. It means it’s fluid, any choice is valid and perhaps in a different situation you might make a different choice and it’s a YMMV situation. When someone leads with “and I would never put my child in daycare, I strongly believe a parent should be home with the kids etc.”, that has changed the conversation in my mind to an implied criticism of other choices. If you truly believe a child can have a great childhood and be a contributing member of society if they go to daycare and have WOHM, why frame it as you have to be there for those things to occur?

Some of this is also the “provider” narrative with some of the DCUM debates. That there is a competition of how good of a guy you have and how worthy you must have been to get that guy based on either how much of a provider or how involved he is in the family life and division of labor in the household. The law firm partner who also coaches their kids sports teams and you see at school events and his wife is a SAHM with help - I just think - well she has it like that. There are lots of debates that can be had about the “provider” mindset, what if that doesn’t work for the guy, does that make him a bad guy?is it okay for the woman to be the provider. Does having the man as the provider mindset hold woman back either themselves or others. I’ve heard of someone choosing not to get rid of a guy that wasn’t doing his job well because he had “a family to provide for” while not giving a promotion to a woman because they said they didn’t have enough money for the raise. Is it okay for the woman to be the provider? I feel like people are still feeling their way around these questions and define what makes a good spouse and what makes a good parent without some of the gender defines roles. Some of the SAHM vs WOHM debates are an extension of these things.

I think your point about the provider narrative is very insightful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what this is ab,out either, OP. Sure there are some people who truly SAH 100% of the time. And there are some people who are WOH 60+ hours/wk + travel. But most people do something in between and are more similar than they are different.

SAHM's use an average of 15-20 hours/wk of childcare, whether it's preschool, grandparents, or a hired babysitter.
WOHM's use an average of 35 hours/wk of childcare.
All moms of young children spend an average of 100 hours/wk working in and out of the home.

Most of us are spending nearly all of our time doing the same thing. The WOHM vs SAHM debate is mostly fabricated.

This is hilariously out of touch.

+1 what? where are you getting this "average" number of 15-20 hrs? I SAH and I have a 4 yo and 1 yo. At the MAX, when my daughter was in preschool last year, she was gone for 12 hrs/wk.... but I had a baby at home, so not sure what that counts as. If she'd gone to preschool this year, it would've been between 9 and 16 hrs a wk, but again, my baby would've been at home with me.
And no, staying home with children and being at work are not the same thing. Do you think being a daycare worker and working in an office are the same thing?

Pp here. It’s from a survey done several years ago. I have a hard copy of it filed somewhere, but can’t find it right now.
And it’s an average.
For every mom who has their children 100% of the time, there is one who trades off childcare with a neighbor or has kids who go to visit grandparents every weekend.

Visiting family on the weekends isn’t childcare. That’s what families do. Your former example sounds more like a reciprocal play date.

Ok. If you don’t think that friends, family members, or preschool can provide childcare, then you aren’t going to care for this survey.

That’s not what I said, and yes I would like to see the survey.

Great. Then you can look it up and pay for it. I am almost positive that it isn’t free, or I wouldn’t have printed it out.

I figured you wouldn't link. The survey doesn't ring true to me whatsoever, and I doubt the results have been replicated elsewhere, but it would have been nice to at least read it.

[Anonymous]

NP: but the survey talk got me thinking, and I found this great Pew report on the rise of the SAHM
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/04/08/after-decades-of-decline-a-rise-in-stay-at-home-mothers/

This graph in particular spoke to me on the childcare/SAHM debate above:
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/04/08/after-decades-of-decline-a-rise-in-stay-at-home-mothers/sdt-2014-04_moms-at-home-3-01/

It finds that WOHM ends up providing only 7 hrs less per week in childcare than the SAHM. They also provide slightly less housework (8hr less) but have less leisure (9hr less) and less sleep (5hr less). One could argue, lets assume the the average WOHM outsources 40hr/week in childcare (daycare, nanny, school, etc) plus providing their 11hr/week in childcare - this means there is 51hr/week in childcare that needs to be covered ... now, the SAHM covers 18hr/week in childcare. And 51hr - 18hr = 33hr. This is most likely driven by children in school, but that is childcare. SAHM absolutely receive tens of hours a week in childcare on average.

That isn't for debate.

Now back to preferences, if you are able to afford to live a lifestyle you are comfortable with on one income, i can 100% see how a person can prefer to be a SAHM (9hr more leisure, more time with kids, house chores, and sleep!) but that isn't everyone's preference, or what works for their family.

But let's not pretend SAHM dont outsource childcare too. Swapped playdates, school, family watching the child on the weekend. THAT.IS.HELP.WITH.CHILDCARE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP: but the survey talk got me thinking, and I found this great Pew report on the rise of the SAHM
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/04/08/after-decades-of-decline-a-rise-in-stay-at-home-mothers/

This graph in particular spoke to me on the childcare/SAHM debate above:
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/04/08/after-decades-of-decline-a-rise-in-stay-at-home-mothers/sdt-2014-04_moms-at-home-3-01/

It finds that WOHM ends up providing only 7 hrs less per week in childcare than the SAHM. They also provide slightly less housework (8hr less) but have less leisure (9hr less) and less sleep (5hr less). One could argue, lets assume the the average WOHM outsources 40hr/week in childcare (daycare, nanny, school, etc) plus providing their 11hr/week in childcare - this means there is 51hr/week in childcare that needs to be covered ... now, the SAHM covers 18hr/week in childcare. And 51hr - 18hr = 33hr. This is most likely driven by children in school, but that is childcare. SAHM absolutely receive tens of hours a week in childcare on average.

That isn't for debate.

Now back to preferences, if you are able to afford to live a lifestyle you are comfortable with on one income, i can 100% see how a person can prefer to be a SAHM (9hr more leisure, more time with kids, house chores, and sleep!) but that isn't everyone's preference, or what works for their family.

But let's not pretend SAHM dont outsource childcare too. Swapped playdates, school, family watching the child on the weekend. THAT.IS.HELP.WITH.CHILDCARE.

Thanks for linking. This is very interesting because of its use of time-use diaries, although I would have loved to have seen this broken out by age group. The survey included parents of children up to age 18 - would be nice to see this with school age children given how often SAHMs return to work at the later ages.

The main discrepancy is the marital status of the mother which is interesting (who are these single parent SAHMs?!):

"The child-care time gap between mothers who work outside the home and those who do not is largest among married mothers with working husbands. There is a nine-hour disparity in weekly child-care hours of stay-at-home married mothers with employed husbands (20 hours) compared with working married mothers with employed husbands (11 hours). The difference for cohabiting mothers is seven hours, and it is five hours for single mothers."

I think most of us are thinking in terms of married couples - seems there are huge differences when you step outside that dynamic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I blame the men because they perpetuate a feeling that whatever a woman is doing is not good enough so it breeds this competition.

YES!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP: but the survey talk got me thinking, and I found this great Pew report on the rise of the SAHM
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/04/08/after-decades-of-decline-a-rise-in-stay-at-home-mothers/

SO curious to see how much higher the rise is in the time of covid.