Forcing Adopted Asian Child to have Bat Mitzvah when Child Does not Want It

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was also wondering the same. Why mention that the kid is adopted, what does this have to do with bat mitzvah

When you go through the adoption process the social worker wants to make sure you will preserve the child's cultural identity as much as possible. The child's culture is supposed to supersede the parent's.

That never happens
An adopted child belongs to the family that adopted. You do not get a foreign child, the child is your very own

There is no way to preserve a cultural identity that you have never been part of. You could have awareness of the culture.

Uh no, you absolutely are expected to honor the child's culture as part of their upbringing. There is a difference between exposing them to your belief system and forcing this on them. The child is not a prize you bought. It is a human you have the privilege of raising. That human has many needs.

No wonder in the African American community there is so much controversy over the idea of a white person raising a black child. You are not purchasing a doll that you program. Kids need to be around others who look like them. They need to learn about the culture of origin.

This 10000000+

You have the privilege of raising this child in your family, but you do not get to erase her identity (though many adoptive parents try). She is Chinese. She doesn’t not want a Bat Mitzvah. It is absolutely worth mentioning that she is adopted because issues of identity formation are infinitely more important to adopted people. She had no choice about being taken from her first family or cukture or home country. Now that she is a near teenager, to force her to do this...it is the height of arrogance and insensitivity and selfishness. She deserves some say in her identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Got a few ideas from this thread. She is very unhappy and she contacted me again and my daughter. This is escalating quickly.

The good news is my brother and SIL are looking into counseling and are rethinking things and allowing her to explore her heritage more. She is struggling in school too so they understand pushing Bat Mitzvah tutoring is adding to the stress. I am glad they both are open to listening to her more and they do truly care.My brother's whole tone has changed and is he feels bad that things have gotten to this point.

Feel free to continue the discussion if you like. I probably won't be popping in much more.

There sounds a lot more to this and it doesn't sound like this is a culture or heritage issue but an academic issue if she is struggling at school and tutoring. She's overwhelmed academically and that has nothing to do with a Bat Mitzvah. Instead of counseling they should do academic testing and address the real problem. If she's struggling that much, she may need academic tutors or easier classes. It sounds liked they have done a lot to keep up her culture. At that age its normal to question your identity but that doesn't sound like this is the situation and it sounds like its an academic issue.

OP here. Did want to address this too as it may help other families. She has been tested and does have intervention. As they became more serious about the Bat Mitzvah, they stopped with the Chinese cultural activities and she did not like that. It's complicated, but she is a great young lady who has been advocating for herself. I truly believe they are doing the right thing getting family counseling with someone sensitive to adoption issues and cultural diversity. I am not a fan of forcing something on a child that is not crucial to their development.

You really aren't in the adoption community or get it. It sounds like she needs more interventions and your post was clear she's struggling with the learning/academic part of it, which is very hard for some kids. If she wants to do more cultural stuff, thats fine but its pretty typical at that age families stop and kids show less interest as they don't want to be different. Many kids rebel against Chinese or other schools for culture. If its important to her, she needs to ask her parents to continue it but she'll have the same issues at Chinese school as Hebrew school if she has learning disabilities. This has nothing to do with adoption. This has to do with religion and most religion is forced on kids who then become parents and force it on their kids. I don't agree with it but that's what parents do.

Let me guess...your role in “the adoption community” is an adoptive parent, right? This IS about adoption. Her parents dropped her classes in her own culture in favor of the Bat Mitzvah they are forcing on her. You have no sense of the perspective of an adopted person, but are looking for excuses to deflect from the adoption issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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But one can be both Chinese—the ethnicity—and Jewish—the religion.

DP. Here’s what I told my former SIL about the difference between her transracially adopted son and her friend’s adopted white son who is the same race. “Your child’s face tells part of his story. He can’t easily step into any shul in the US and be accepted the way Friend’s white son can. Give him options for finding community.”

This, so this.

My father is Chinese. My mom is Polish and Jewish. They met in Ny. I was raised Jewish. My facial features are clearly Chinese. I have always been welcome in any shul I’ve entered. I have never found it difficult to become a part of the multiple Jewish communities that I have lived in due to my facial features.

That’s entirely different and you know it. Your mother is Jewish.

+1. What a dumba$$ post.

OP's niece is adopted. Her mother is Jewish, too.

You k is you are being wilfully obtuse. Jewish identity is ttraditionally passed through blood on the maternal line. OP’s neice’s first mother is (presumably, most likely) not Jewish. Her adoptive mother is. That doesn’t automatically make her Jewish, whereas being born to a jewish mother would even if she didn’t practice the faith. Yes, that’s creepily racial/archaic but it is what it is, and it is undeniably very different in terms of Jewish identity to be born to a Jewish woman.

It really feels like some people want to completely pretend that adoption is not significant or real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do Jewish patents with biological kids do in this situation? That is the right question, if she was adopted as a baby, this is her family. Have they raised her within the Jewish faith all along? If so, this should not be a surprise or issue. If this is coming out of left field as she approaches adolescence...then that is the problem.

The fact that she came into the family via adoption is not that relevant. I would ask religious families whose kids are resisting that tradition/culture, how they handle it.

I am an adoptive parent. You blend the child’s complex heritages. One does not supplant the other. This is not about adoption.

I knew you were an adoptive parent when I read the first line. The fact that you don’t think it matters that the child is adopted is really, really concerning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But one can be both Chinese—the ethnicity—and Jewish—the religion.

DP. Here’s what I told my former SIL about the difference between her transracially adopted son and her friend’s adopted white son who is the same race. “Your child’s face tells part of his story. He can’t easily step into any shul in the US and be accepted the way Friend’s white son can. Give him options for finding community.”

This, so this.

My father is Chinese. My mom is Polish and Jewish. They met in Ny. I was raised Jewish. My facial features are clearly Chinese. I have always been welcome in any shul I’ve entered. I have never found it difficult to become a part of the multiple Jewish communities that I have lived in due to my facial features.

That’s entirely different and you know it. Your mother is Jewish.

+1. What a dumba$$ post.

OP's niece is adopted. Her mother is Jewish, too.

You k is you are being wilfully obtuse. Jewish identity is ttraditionally passed through blood on the maternal line. OP’s neice’s first mother is (presumably, most likely) not Jewish. Her adoptive mother is. That doesn’t automatically make her Jewish, whereas being born to a jewish mother would even if she didn’t practice the faith. Yes, that’s creepily racial/archaic but it is what it is, and it is undeniably very different in terms of Jewish identity to be born to a Jewish woman.

It really feels like some people want to completely pretend that adoption is not significant or real.

You are talking about orthodox customs. There are Jews of all ethnicities now. Jewish isn't a race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do Jewish patents with biological kids do in this situation? That is the right question, if she was adopted as a baby, this is her family. Have they raised her within the Jewish faith all along? If so, this should not be a surprise or issue. If this is coming out of left field as she approaches adolescence...then that is the problem.

The fact that she came into the family via adoption is not that relevant. I would ask religious families whose kids are resisting that tradition/culture, how they handle it.

I am an adoptive parent. [b]You blend the child’s complex heritages. One does not supplant the other. This is not about adoption.[b]

+1 -- Exactly. This is not about adoption. It could be about a learning disability, the child's feeling alienated from the community or peers at the family's temple, the child's impulse to question the tenets of her faith -- all of which I have seen with Jewish children who were (note the past tense) not adopted. The parents certainly need to address that, but to approach this by saying, "You're (note the present tense) adopted, so you aren't really part of our family heritage" would be hurtful and cruel and insensitive.

[Anonymous]

Check out "That Adoptee"

[Anonymous]

I don't think the adoption part is even relevant, if the child doesn't want a bat mitzvah, she shouldn't be forced to have one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But one can be both Chinese—the ethnicity—and Jewish—the religion.

DP. Here’s what I told my former SIL about the difference between her transracially adopted son and her friend’s adopted white son who is the same race. “Your child’s face tells part of his story. He can’t easily step into any shul in the US and be accepted the way Friend’s white son can. Give him options for finding community.”

This, so this.

My father is Chinese. My mom is Polish and Jewish. They met in Ny. I was raised Jewish. My facial features are clearly Chinese. I have always been welcome in any shul I’ve entered. I have never found it difficult to become a part of the multiple Jewish communities that I have lived in due to my facial features.

That’s entirely different and you know it. Your mother is Jewish.

+1. What a dumba$$ post.

OP's niece is adopted. Her mother is Jewish, too.

You k is you are being wilfully obtuse. Jewish identity is ttraditionally passed through blood on the maternal line. OP’s neice’s first mother is (presumably, most likely) not Jewish. Her adoptive mother is. That doesn’t automatically make her Jewish, whereas being born to a jewish mother would even if she didn’t practice the faith. Yes, that’s creepily racial/archaic but it is what it is, and it is undeniably very different in terms of Jewish identity to be born to a Jewish woman.

It really feels like some people want to completely pretend that adoption is not significant or real.

Presumably this child was converted when adopted, because her family is planning a Bat Mitzvah for her. So she is a Jewish child with a Jewish mother. The implication that this child isn't REALLY Jewish is racist and gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can never understand why parents need their children to follow the same religion as them. Or even follow religion at all. It just breeds resentment to be harassed into learning prayers and going to places you have no interest in. If a child wants to enter a religion out of their own interest, then That is fine. If a child wants to be an atheist, that should also be fine. More often than not, I think this whole “my child needs to practise my religion” business is very much based on the parents’ need to keep appearances in the community. It’s fake and disingenuous while also psychologically damaging to the poor kid who didn’t choose that belief system to begin with

I'm an atheist, but it seems to me that if you believe your religion is the way to get to heaven, you'd want your child to follow it. Or if you've gotten peace and comfort from following your religion, you'd want your child to have that, too.

DP. Judaism doesn’t work like that, but for other religions that could certainly be true.

Judaism has a strong belief in education and learning about the world around you. For many parents, that means not only the secular education their children get in school, but also the education of our culture and religion. A bar or bat mitzvah is the culmination of that childhood learning, and an entry point into adult education.

It’s hard for a person to choose this education on their own as an adult if there isn’t a background or a foundation.

This plus it's not just religion, it's culture and values. What, the parents are going to go to synagogue and leave the kids home? Doesn't work like that.

If a child truly has no interest as they get older then they can make that choice. After receiving an education that will let them function in their community should they choose to. If they choose not to, fine, but at least they'll have the skills. Do you not make your kids learn to read, write, and do math, even when they whine about those things being boring?

It's not a fair comparison. Academic skills have value while religiosity doesn't. The worst hypocrites always tend to be the Bible or Koran thumpers. I wasn't raised in any religion but my family is historically from Indonesia and my mom identifies as Muslim. She wasn't really religious until I was in my late teens, but her own religious awakening wasn't just about her- it was about ME. I would get cornered at home with "Why don't you believe?" "Recite these prayers" "One day, God will show you"...it was awful and proved to me that organized religion was really about control. Granted, my mom has some mental issues and I'm wondering if there's some self-selection involved given that she's possibly borderline without any strong sense of self except being "a moderate Muslim". This whole religious nonsense with her continues to take form in emotional blackmail and guilting whenever I visit home and I am so tired of deflecting her requests to join her at some prayers hall or see her religious leader friends. Sorry for the rant but I agree with OP and think many people underestimate how awful it is to have something like religion foisted on you by family, and so I'm glad OP that you are thinking of your niece.

Religiosity absolutely has values. In my kids' (Jewish) Sunday School, they learn and discuss the ten commandments, for example. Discussing why we should not murder or spread gossip are valuable lessons. They learn to give to the less fortunate in the community - collecting coins each week and deciding on a charity to donate to. Doing charitable acts is an important part of the Jewish religion. In addition to the values of the religion, they learn the traditions and history of their ancestors. When I was in secular school and learned about World War 2, I had already learned at synagogue how my ancestors were affected by it. In Judaism, we are also taught to think - read a biblical passage, for example and then think critically about what the passage is saying. You are also encouraged to debate and back up why you think it says what it says. You are not forced to believe, but encouraged to question, formulate your own ideas and understanding, debate it with classmates and grow and learn from others.

I can only speak for Judaism, but it has academic values and emotional values as well as spiritual values. I'm sure other religions have similar values. Teaching your child your religion is no different than teaching them academic information, teaching them your views on various topics, living out your values, etc. No child in any family - religious or not - is going to be a replica of their parents. But all good parents teach their children what is important to them - what they think they should know for when they become an adult. For me, that involves bringing my children - both biological and adopted - to Sunday School and synagogue. I hope they use the valuable lessons they learn there - to think for themselves, to challenge, debate, to have confidence, and to have pride in who they are - later in life.

great post

[Anonymous]

She's Jewish. Why focus so much on her being Asian?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can never understand why parents need their children to follow the same religion as them. Or even follow religion at all. It just breeds resentment to be harassed into learning prayers and going to places you have no interest in. If a child wants to enter a religion out of their own interest, then That is fine. If a child wants to be an atheist, that should also be fine. More often than not, I think this whole “my child needs to practise my religion” business is very much based on the parents’ need to keep appearances in the community. It’s fake and disingenuous while also psychologically damaging to the poor kid who didn’t choose that belief system to begin with

The parents are the parents and the children are the children. For thousands of years parents have practiced their family's religion. Once the young person is
18 and an adult they are free to explore and chose their own religion.

The default of today's families is practicing no religion and parents saying they want their child to select their own religion. Essentially we are becoming a secular
society by default and Europe is even more so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was also wondering the same. Why mention that the kid is adopted, what does this have to do with bat mitzvah

When you go through the adoption process the social worker wants to make sure you will preserve the child's cultural identity as much as possible. The child's culture is supposed to supersede the parent's.

That never happens
An adopted child belongs to the family that adopted. You do not get a foreign child, the child is your very own

There is no way to preserve a cultural identity that you have never been part of. You could have awareness of the culture.

Uh no, you absolutely are expected to honor the child's culture as part of their upbringing. There is a difference between exposing them to your belief system and forcing this on them. The child is not a prize you bought. It is a human you have the privilege of raising. That human has many needs.

No wonder in the African American community there is so much controversy over the idea of a white person raising a black child. You are not purchasing a doll that you program. Kids need to be around others who look like them. They need to learn about the culture of origin.

This 10000000+

You have the privilege of raising this child in your family, but you do not get to erase her identity (though many adoptive parents try). She is Chinese. She doesn’t not want a Bat Mitzvah. It is absolutely worth mentioning that she is adopted because issues of identity formation are infinitely more important to adopted people. She had no choice about being taken from her first family or cukture or home country. Now that she is a near teenager, to force her to do this...it is the height of arrogance and insensitivity and selfishness. She deserves some say in her identity.

This + a billion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the adoption part is even relevant, if the child doesn't want a bat mitzvah, she shouldn't be forced to have one.

That's a very insightful take.

I agree.

That she's Chinese makes it even more clear, but it's not even needed.

[Anonymous]

The family is Jewish. The child is Jewish. The family are
following their Jewish faith. Once the child is 18 and an
adult she can practice whatever faith she wants.

Signed....Christian female who did not always like
my family's faith practices but when you are raised
in a family you follow family rules. Many children
are not crazy about religious family requirements.

Sometimes as a child in a family setting you have
to do things you don't want to.

The reality is the child is extremely fortunate she was
adopted by a loving family. She most likely would still
be in a Chinese orphanage if not adopted. Girls are
second class citizens in China.