Career or divorce

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure why you are all emphasizing my daughter. She will go wherever we go. If we split, she will spend part of her time with each of us. I am not saying we will split. I am asking for advice on the Dallas market. Which big law firms are prominent there? Which areas of law should a litigator emphasize?

If you don't know this immediately, you are not Biglaw. Your a poseur.

"you're" not "your". Grammar!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure why you are all emphasizing my daughter. She will go wherever we go. If we split, she will spend part of her time with each of us. I am not saying we will split. I am asking for advice on the Dallas market. Which big law firms are prominent there? Which areas of law should a litigator emphasize?

If you don't know this immediately, you are not Biglaw. Your a poseur.

I agree. The type of litigation is very important here. OP, if you really were so important in your BL firm, you would know who your competitors are. I do. And it doesn't take an internet genius to search for what firms have Dallas offices. And there are several different types of litigation (appellate, toxic torts, commercial litigation, white collar crime, etc.). You need to know what firms do the kind you do. I don't believe in a million years you don't already know what are the big BL firms in your practice field. Saying "I'm a big deal litigator for a big law firm" tells me NADA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure why you are all emphasizing my daughter. She will go wherever we go. If we split, she will spend part of her time with each of us. I am not saying we will split. I am asking for advice on the Dallas market. Which big law firms are prominent there? Which areas of law should a litigator emphasize?

If you don't know this immediately, you are not Biglaw. Your a poseur.

"you're" not "your". Grammar!!!

What can i say? I'm a partner. I have minions to worry about that shit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your DH has moved for you several times and it's now his turn. Not at all complicated and mighty. And, if you were big important job is actually just working at the SEC or DOJ if you can manage to find work there, you have bigger issues.

But some moves are different from others. If you're a northeasterner, then moving around between DC and NYC isn't a huge big deal. Also, it sounds like the husband had obvious job opportunities in these cities.

It does sound like OP is having a panic attack over Dallas job prospects before actually investigating them - go investigate them! - but I don't think it's fair to lambaste her for being reluctant to leave the cities where she has great contacts and great works. Obviously, if her family moved a few times for her career prospects, her career means a lot to her - so saying, ok, now you go onto a totally different path, isn't really realistic.

No one is lambasting her for being reluctant to move or being reluctant to move to Dallas specifically. The criticism is that she appears pretty nonchalant about the prospects of ending her marriage - and subjecting her toddler to cross-country co-parenting - simply because of this reluctance to move cities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe all of the shitheads giving you a hard time and telling you to suck it up and move!!!! Sooooo sexist. You have a great career here, why should you give it up just because you're a woman? I would not move. Sometimes relationships just don't work out because of circumstance. This may be one of those situations.

I have a great career too, which I didn't want to sacrifice. So guess what -- I didn't marry and have a kid until I was ready to sacrifice; and if I wasn't ready, I would have stayed single. Point is -- OP's DH has moved for her FOUR times in EIGHT years. This isn't a man who won't sacrifice for a woman's career, yet she won't even CONSIDER the idea of sacrificing for him by even calling a headhunter and figuring out the Dallas market before she throws in the towel.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

It's clear to me that OP's concern career-wise isn't that there aren't firms in Dallas, it is that these firms might not hire *her* because she is pretty senior. I don't know why the so called partners here are acting like that isn't a valid concern. Many firms are not willing to just hire someone else's senior associate on the cusp of partnership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's clear to me that OP's concern career-wise isn't that there aren't firms in Dallas, it is that these firms might not hire *her* because she is pretty senior. I don't know why the so called partners here are acting like that isn't a valid concern. Many firms are not willing to just hire someone else's senior associate on the cusp of partnership.

Sure it's a valid concern. Except she hasn't even bothered looking in Dallas and has already decided there's no jobs, guess she'll get a divorce and her kid can deal. She literally has not even tried to reach out and find something despite this not happening til what, next year, and she's already just made up her mind that nobody will hire her. It's her marriage and family on the line and she's just so ambivalent and disinterested in doing anything that betters that situation.

[Anonymous]

I hope this is a troll post.

It's abundantly obvious that the op's husband has sacrificed time and again for her career--and now it's time to sacrifice for his career. So, get with the program, OP. Smart people with a JD can find a job.

If I were in your shoes, I'd consider switching gears a bit. Use the time to transition to a career you'd like to pursue for the next two decades. No clue why any mother would chain herself to big law.

Signed,

Nonprofit lawyer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Right. And did you also not realize that the SEC has a DFW regional office? And the USAO has an office there too? You really won't consider those things bc you'd have to apply thru USAJobs rather than thru connections? I got a job at SEC here in DC with ZERO connections as I was coming from a different city (and I mean in 2015 - not 20 yrs ago), so don't act like it isn't possible unless you at least attempt it.

NP. What do you think helped you stand out from other applicants in landing the SEC gig? Are you an enforcement attorney or working in a different area?

I think it's bc I am a biglaw litigator who WAS willing to go to a division other than enforcement. I think Enforcement gets thousands of apps per opening, while the other divisions may get hundreds -- so they do take more time to review credentials and you do stand out more if you cast your net broadly and don't take on a "enforcement or bust" mentality. Other than that, nothing much -- I have credentials similar to OP, though only 1 clerkship rather than 2.

What division are you in? How are your pay and hours compared to enforcement attorneys? I was under the impression that non-enforcement SEC gigs for attorneys are shittier in terms of career options within the SEC and exit options. -Np (different from the one you were responding to)

Pay will be the same -- same SK scale. Hours vary. I would say ENF probably has longer hours than a lot of other departments, but it will vary based on what is going on. ENF will have better exit options than a lot of other departments, but if you are in Trading and Markets or some other area where you really become an expert in a (in demand) regulatory area, you can have good options as well. If you are in, for example, investor education, your options will probably be more limited to cash out. Also, it is my understanding that most regional positions are in ENF or OCIE (exam staff) and you would likely find the work more interesting and the exit options better in ENF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure why you are all emphasizing my daughter. She will go wherever we go. If we split, she will spend part of her time with each of us. I am not saying we will split. I am asking for advice on the Dallas market. Which big law firms are prominent there? Which areas of law should a litigator emphasize?

That's not at all what your OP asked.

It isn't what you asked. Previous posters have questioned the fact that your first reaction was that your only option was divorce, before you even tried to research the Dallas legal market, much less made any effort at finding a job (or even found Irving on map? Yes, Irving is suburb of Dallas --think Fairfax County vs. DC). As someone noted, this is Dallas, not Baghdad. In fact, I find it hard to believe anyone active in biglaw in DC would be completely unaware of the big Dallas firms, since most of them have offices here in DC. (For example, I've never practiced in Cleveland, but I know the big firms there -- and it's a smaller legal market than Dallas.) I'm also questioning your bizarre idea that law firms don't hire mid-level associates as laterals. I'll chalk it up to the fact that you've spent most of your career clerking.

However, now you asked, here's a start:

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/best-law-firms-in-each-us-region/?sRankID=14

These firms are not all headquartered in Dallas, but I believe they all have substantial Dallas offices.

There are 21 Fortune 500 companies headquartered in Dallas-Ft. Worth area, including Exxon-Mobil (Irving), ATT&T, American Airlines, Flour (Irving) and Kimberly Clark (Irving), and more moving to the area all the time. The oil industry has been hit hard by low oil prices, but it's interesting to note that there are only three oil companies on this list.

A quick search using the term "Dallas legal market" turned up the following article, which notes:

Four elite firms — Gibson Dunn, King & Spalding, Latham & Watkins and Sidley Austin — have stormed the Texas market since 2009. They now have a combined 349 Texas-based lawyers generating more than $360 million in revenue...“We think there’s still significant growth opportunities here,” said Yvette Ostolaza, managing partner of Sidley’s Dallas operation. “Our revenues here are as good, maybe even better, than the national average. So we will continue to seek additional strategic hires.” http://www.dallasnews.com/business/business-headlines/20150523-elite-law-firms-take-texas-by-storm.ece

Finding this information took me about five minutes. In your years of clerking, you must have some finely honed research skills. The fact that you didn't even try to find this information yourself before contemplating divorce does make me think you have no intention of supporting your husband as he has supported you.

I am shocked by how blasé you seem to be about the impact of this on your child. Again, your husband is not asking you to move to an area in which you cannot practice the type of sophisticated litigation you seem to crave. If you can't make such a relatively minor sacrifice for your husband and child, then you really do have bigger problems.

+1. My law school roommate clerked for a district ct judge. I know it's a big deal and the kind if sacrifices she's gone through to get where she is. Op sounds book smart but pretty unwise, isolated, and almost stupid in dealing with real life. Why would you write such a post with such a heading here? Her question is not one to be crowdsourced by DCUMers.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, this is a troll.

[Anonymous]

Did anyone mention the subject line? Divorce OR career. Those aren't actually the opposites - you'd expect Divorce or Move, or Marriage or Career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's clear to me that OP's concern career-wise isn't that there aren't firms in Dallas, it is that these firms might not hire *her* because she is pretty senior. I don't know why the so called partners here are acting like that isn't a valid concern. Many firms are not willing to just hire someone else's senior associate on the cusp of partnership.

Sure it's a valid concern. Except she hasn't even bothered looking in Dallas and has already decided there's no jobs, guess she'll get a divorce and her kid can deal. She literally has not even tried to reach out and find something despite this not happening til what, next year, and she's already just made up her mind that nobody will hire her. It's her marriage and family on the line and she's just so ambivalent and disinterested in doing anything that betters that situation.

Totally a valid concern. It is hard to get hired as a 8th yr or 10th yr or whatever OP is. That doesn't mean that no one EVER gets a job. OP is choosing not to even look. I have known senior lawyers who have sacrificed for their spouses -- in one case the spouse was a tenure track prof and was lucky to get a job anywhere so the DH followed her to Dallas; in another the spouse was a clinical psychologist again in a tight market so the spouse followed to Denver; in another case the spouse was an FBI agent who got transferred so the atty spouse had to find a job in Minneapolis. All of these attorney spouses were either 7th-8th yr associates or junior partners (without a book) and all were general litigators without any kind of hook. Pretty "impossible" odds re finding a job. Yet the attorney spouses ended up: in house for a major investment bank; at a regional Colorado firm for a yr which wasn't great but the spouse stuck it out for 12-14 months and then landed in house at a healthcare company in Denver; at a regional firm in Minneapolis, where the spouse eventually made partner, respectively.

There are things one can do if they WANT to make it work -- often it's not going to biglaw but to a regional firm that may be a little more flexible re seniority when it comes to hiring. Sometimes it's going to biglaw but letting the recruiter know that you will take a step back (or 2-3 yrs step back) if the firm doesn't want you as an 8th yr. Sometimes it's trying for in house or gov't, even if it means not the best in house or gov't gig. In smaller cities, sometimes just being in the city and working someplace for a yr or two opens up options that wouldn't exist if you're searching from DC. I know someone who went to a DOJ job in Georgia -- not the best job at all and not one known for good exit options. Yet 18 months later he got into a great southeastern firm -- a firm that had turned him down earlier bc they questioned whether he REALLY wanted to be in Georgia; once they saw he was living there for almost 2 yrs, practicing, and admitted to the bar, they were willing to pull the trigger.

Point is -- try to look before you decide it's truly impossible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Right. And did you also not realize that the SEC has a DFW regional office? And the USAO has an office there too? You really won't consider those things bc you'd have to apply thru USAJobs rather than thru connections? I got a job at SEC here in DC with ZERO connections as I was coming from a different city (and I mean in 2015 - not 20 yrs ago), so don't act like it isn't possible unless you at least attempt it.

NP. What do you think helped you stand out from other applicants in landing the SEC gig? Are you an enforcement attorney or working in a different area?

I think it's bc I am a biglaw litigator who WAS willing to go to a division other than enforcement. I think Enforcement gets thousands of apps per opening, while the other divisions may get hundreds -- so they do take more time to review credentials and you do stand out more if you cast your net broadly and don't take on a "enforcement or bust" mentality. Other than that, nothing much -- I have credentials similar to OP, though only 1 clerkship rather than 2.

What division are you in? How are your pay and hours compared to enforcement attorneys? I was under the impression that non-enforcement SEC gigs for attorneys are shittier in terms of career options within the SEC and exit options. -Np (different from the one you were responding to)

Pay will be the same -- same SK scale. Hours vary. I would say ENF probably has longer hours than a lot of other departments, but it will vary based on what is going on. ENF will have better exit options than a lot of other departments, but if you are in Trading and Markets or some other area where you really become an expert in a (in demand) regulatory area, you can have good options as well. If you are in, for example, investor education, your options will probably be more limited to cash out. Also, it is my understanding that most regional positions are in ENF or OCIE (exam staff) and you would likely find the work more interesting and the exit options better in ENF.

The really small or specific offices/divisions become harder to exit from -- i.e. Investor Education; Women & Minority Inclusion (no clue what they even do) etc. I think with the bigger divisions you're generally fine -- even if it isn't a sexy division -- depending on what you want your exit to be. I mean if you're hellbent on partnership at Cravath or Deputy GC at Goldman Sachs, then you best be in the most prestigious division with the media worthy cases. If you merely want to go back to the private sector and are ok with any Vault 50 firm and will even consider regional firms, it's not going to be impossible even if you're in TM rather than Enf.

[Anonymous]

This post only makes sense if the DH is posing as the wife to see average person's reaction. No clerk or Biglaw associate would write like this (phrasing seems off but makes sense if you're not in the legal world) or pose such simple and stupid questions (lawyers would know where to look).