What is the parenting secret of Orthodox Jewish families?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn’t grow up orthodox but another strict religion.

There seems to be something about following a religion that makes people happier and grounded. Not all people, and yes there is abuse and women who aren’t happy. But in general, people seemed 10000x happier than the families I encounter in my life today.

Happier people have an easier time raising kids and the kids are happier too.

My unpopular opinion is that women working FT corporate jobs make for very unhappy families, and few women in ultra religious homes are working these types of jobs.

OP here. I think that if a culture prioritizes lots of kids then the mom has to be a homemaker for obvious reasons. But I heard from a relative who was formerly orthodox that the dads actually do a lot of hands-on work around the home. And living in a community where you have other moms around during the day is different from the isolation of secular SAHM in this area. In thinking about my own family, our healthiest time period was when the kids were little and my dad spent a lot of time doing hands-on care of kids and the house.

That said I still cannot personally imagine having that many kids! One was like excruciatingly hard for me - but I am in that culture of moms working FT and my exDH was useless at home.

When I had my first I read an essay by a mother of ten about how “one baby” is actually the hardest stage of all. I thought it was insane. Now I have five and I understand. She was right.

To be fair presumably you wanted 5 and your DH is a supportive parent, no? In contrast I was destroyed by 1 and had zero meaningful support then had to go back to work FT. I honestly had panic attacks thinking about having a second other than a fleeting moment when the baby was adorable and sleeping better but not yet walking. Not everyone is cut out for it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like Catholics, Mormons, and other religious groups with big families, they expect the older children (especially the older daughters, but sons too) to help. It’s a lot easier to handle a bunch of kids when the big ones change diapers, wipe noses, put on shoes, read books, etc.

+1. I saw a group at a playground yesterday and my first thought was "I bet they were really glad the first 2 kids were girls" because the older girls were doing a lovely job helping the little ones, while the two oldest boys ran around with sticks. Not that boys couldn't help, but the gender divisions are pretty strict with the way they are raised, so they wouldn't naturally be asked to.

Palm to forehead. This is what happens when the broader culture knows nothing of raising children.
Children- males and females, but most especially females- LIKE doting on younger children. It’s *natural* even if they are NEVER asked to. How do I know? I have five kids and was so afraid of the allegation of “parentification” that I hired au pairs. But the older kids WANT to help just like you WANTED to have children. It’s human and good to have a desiring toward care for the more vulnerable.

You're not the only one in the world with kids and not all kids are the same. I can assure you my oldest never wanted to help until he was 10 years old. He would argue literally every time I said "can you please go get x." We had a LOT of conversations about his role in the family and how he needed to help. Only in the last 2 years has the answer changed to "sure mom" when I ask him to do things. If I'd had 5 kids and expected him to help with diapers and such, I'd have had to resort to corporal punishment, which I'm not a fan of.

Obviously cultural expectations may make things different too, not just personality. But Orthodox families do tend to be quite gender-conformist. The average such family is not having their oldest boys help with diapers and cooking if there are girls around to do that.

kids should not be parenting siblings Dont have more kids than you can care for.

[Anonymous]

Every family is different but what I see is its very secular and they don't fully socialize with outsiders (we belong to a pool where its primarily orthodox). Kids aren't in outside activities, which helps and often the oldest care for the youngest and kids basically care for themselves. Parents ignore the kids at the pool a lot and often they are there by themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think being serious about religion requires a lot of self- discipline. So it could be that religious parents have self-discipline and their children are more likely to be self-disciplined as well.
The other aspect is that these families have a strong culture and exist a little bit outside of mainstream American culture. So while I am sure they are influenced by parenting trends in pop culture, they likely also receive a lot of community support for parenting more or less like their parents did.

If all the women have 8 kids - what kind of support would be available? Oh, I'll watch 16 kids while you get your hair done?

Getting their hair done? Tell me you know nothing about Orthodox Judaism without telling me you know nothing about Orthodox Judaism.

The women are required to wear wigs and cover themselves completely when outside.

In New York, the Hasidic Jews use their own schools to educate their children at the same time getting hundreds of millions of dollars in public funding.

When the community finally agreed to test their children for New York , the school, the Central United Talmudical Academy, gave 1,000 of their students state standardized tests in reading and math. Every one of them failed.

There are extremists in every religion, usually a very small percentage, and they are never a good thing.

90% of this post is irrelevant to the comment you are responding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn’t grow up orthodox but another strict religion.

There seems to be something about following a religion that makes people happier and grounded. Not all people, and yes there is abuse and women who aren’t happy. But in general, people seemed 10000x happier than the families I encounter in my life today.

Happier people have an easier time raising kids and the kids are happier too.

My unpopular opinion is that women working FT corporate jobs make for very unhappy families, and few women in ultra religious homes are working these types of jobs.

I think it makes them dumber and poorer. But please do travel to Afghanistan and tell us all about the happy women in Taliban religious homes who don't have to earn their own money.

+1

I’m a mom of 5… I went to Northwestern. Maybe that can give some parents pause when they make college choice the pinnacle of everything

IDGAF? I’m a Christian with a large family and the American half of my family has been going to Dartmouth since before the US existed. We were responding to one of the posters claiming women belong in the home without careers. Disempowering women and using coercive control of women and children is a bad thing. The series of posts trying elevate this is disturbing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn’t grow up orthodox but another strict religion.

There seems to be something about following a religion that makes people happier and grounded. Not all people, and yes there is abuse and women who aren’t happy. But in general, people seemed 10000x happier than the families I encounter in my life today.

Happier people have an easier time raising kids and the kids are happier too.

My unpopular opinion is that women working FT corporate jobs make for very unhappy families, and few women in ultra religious homes are working these types of jobs.

OP here. I think that if a culture prioritizes lots of kids then the mom has to be a homemaker for obvious reasons. But I heard from a relative who was formerly orthodox that the dads actually do a lot of hands-on work around the home. And living in a community where you have other moms around during the day is different from the isolation of secular SAHM in this area. In thinking about my own family, our healthiest time period was when the kids were little and my dad spent a lot of time doing hands-on care of kids and the house.

That said I still cannot personally imagine having that many kids! One was like excruciatingly hard for me - but I am in that culture of moms working FT and my exDH was useless at home.

When I had my first I read an essay by a mother of ten about how “one baby” is actually the hardest stage of all. I thought it was insane. Now I have five and I understand. She was right.

To be fair presumably you wanted 5 and your DH is a supportive parent, no? In contrast I was destroyed by 1 and had zero meaningful support then had to go back to work FT. I honestly had panic attacks thinking about having a second other than a fleeting moment when the baby was adorable and sleeping better but not yet walking. Not everyone is cut out for it!

I didn’t go into it wanting five, and one was really really hard for me, but yes I was lucky in a lot of ways. I don’t mean to downplay your struggle or say you should have had more, just that baby 2 isn’t necessarily baby 1 all over again. IME it’s usually women who have it easier in some regard who are able to make a large family work — the regard can be supportive husband, money, naturally chill disposition, easy pregnancies, easy kids, starting young. I just think there’s something uniquely difficult about one infant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Fun fact. The rod in ancient shepherding times was used to guide sheep not best them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, they’ve probably never seen a screen/ipad in their life. Unless their mom is “influencer”

They haven’t seen too many books in their lives either. They are not brought up like other American children. Education consists solely of religion information and the women are expected to marry at a very early age and produce many children.

OP here. I don’t think that is all orthodox families. the family I saw was IN a book store.

DP. There is a wide range within what’s grouped under Orthodox Judaism. Some of them, actually quite a few of them, are educated well enough to become doctors, lawyers and college professors. Many more are accountants, teachers, software developers, etc. That includes both men and women. And then there are some fringe groups that barely educate their boys.

They aren’t a fringe group. They have a very large group in Brooklyn and an even bigger one outside of NYC. Heretic and Hasidic Orthodox Jews don’t educate their children except for religious stuff. Some work but most depend on welfare because their average families have 6-7 kids and it’s unaffordable. They annoy mainstream Jews in Israel because they are exempt from the military but other people’s children are required to serve.

It’s not an easy life for some of those kids. The ones who decide to leave are shunned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I sometimes see large Orthodox Jewish families out and about and the kids are so calm and presentable! Yesterday I saw a dad on his own with 6 kids that all appeared to be under 12, including two babies in a double stroller. The kids were all calm and happy, played with the babies, and stuck close to dad. Dad appeared a little weary (seems normal) but nothing like the extreme exhaustion I know I would project if I went out with six kids. I did not hear a single whine or argument from the kids or a single harsh word from the dad. Amazing! How do they do it?

Like most religious fundamentalist, I suspect there's a lot of "Old Testament" parenting.

[Anonymous]

When you see them they are well behaved because the kids aren’t typically in outside activities and they only go out and do things outside the community on some Sundays. (According to my frithe zoo on Sunday is a popular one). So you are seeing them only on these outings, which they take seriously.

Also, yes, the oldest daughters typically help raise younger kids, same as in the mormon community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, they’ve probably never seen a screen/ipad in their life. Unless their mom is “influencer”

Are you kidding? I live near a large orthodox community and the kids are on iPads constantly in their strollers. They aren’t Amish.

They might have some electronics but their media tends to be extremely locked down. They aren’t watching the things regular kids are, and certainly not dirty music, video games etc.

There is simply not a tolerance for acting out, cursing etc that many other parents tolerate. It’s just not done. But when a kid/teen acts out or defies their parents, it is a BIG deal and parents often overreact, and these kids seriously spiral. The cohesiveness of the community works… until it doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sometimes see large Orthodox Jewish families out and about and the kids are so calm and presentable! Yesterday I saw a dad on his own with 6 kids that all appeared to be under 12, including two babies in a double stroller. The kids were all calm and happy, played with the babies, and stuck close to dad. Dad appeared a little weary (seems normal) but nothing like the extreme exhaustion I know I would project if I went out with six kids. I did not hear a single whine or argument from the kids or a single harsh word from the dad. Amazing! How do they do it?

Like most religious fundamentalist, I suspect there's a lot of "Old Testament" parenting.

PP. there really isn’t but there is incredible social influence.

[Anonymous]

My mom was the oldest of 7 in a Catholic family. They weren't happy. Having lots of kids is not for everyone.

My DH and I are agnostic and have one child. We both work full time in flexible jobs and IMO we have the absolute best life for us.

Anyway watch those docs about the Duggars to understand how ultra-religious families keep their kids so well behaved. Spoiler alert - it's fear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like Catholics, Mormons, and other religious groups with big families, they expect the older children (especially the older daughters, but sons too) to help. It’s a lot easier to handle a bunch of kids when the big ones change diapers, wipe noses, put on shoes, read books, etc.

It is not the responsibility of older children to take care of their siblings. it is a form of child abuse.

If it is made *their* responsibility * elusively*. Look up parentification. Otherwise it’s no different then telling them to wash the dishes or so their homework.

“Elusively” is the wrong word, so maybe cool it with the excessive asterisks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like Catholics, Mormons, and other religious groups with big families, they expect the older children (especially the older daughters, but sons too) to help. It’s a lot easier to handle a bunch of kids when the big ones change diapers, wipe noses, put on shoes, read books, etc.

+1. I saw a group at a playground yesterday and my first thought was "I bet they were really glad the first 2 kids were girls" because the older girls were doing a lovely job helping the little ones, while the two oldest boys ran around with sticks. Not that boys couldn't help, but the gender divisions are pretty strict with the way they are raised, so they wouldn't naturally be asked to.

At risk of being a gender essentialist … sometimes girls really like to interact with and mother their younger sibs. I wasn’t like that to an extreme but I definitely really loved taking care of my baby sister born when I was 12. And my 8 year old sister was extremely close to the baby and was constantly playing school etc.

Same. My parents were very anti gender roles and would have loved to dress me in unisex/boy clothing. I showed them! I only wore pink and dresses (still do). I was beyond thrilled to take care of my younger siblings (8 years younger). I was a nanny throughout high school and college. Sometimes it’s not how you’re raised, sometimes people just gravitate towards certain things. I see this with my own kids. I have one girl who is a tomboy and the other wants to be a princess. It’s nothing I did. Not all kids resent taking care of others, but I know some do of course. My son has lots and lots of chores and does the same ones as my girls. I’m not raising a boy who watches women work while he sits.

To answer op, I think the people who have large families know how to take care of them and also like kids. The same can’t be said for most moms. Also, none of those families practice gentle/permissive parenting. Even if they don’t spank, bad behavior is NOT accepted.

My permissive parenting friends let their kids do anything. The other day at a playdate my friends two kids started jumping on her couch and she let them. I told my kids no, don’t get up there too. The friend was shocked and said they weren’t hurting anything. Ffs. Kids need to learn how to respect everything.

As a non abusive Catholic mom of a big family, I agree with this. No gentle or permissive parenting of a large family. Privileges like screens and sweets and fun are EARNED not the baseline. Kids are brought up to respect the parents who are their natural authority (underneath God) and to contribute to the good of the family (God’s design and plan). My oldest who is 13 is a boy and he does not gravitate towards childcare or younger kids, but he is able to perform his role in the family to look after his younger siblings and guide them as God designed for him (due to his birth order).

Does that make sense? It’s a different way of looking at the world than secular culture which does contribute to child behavior imo. Plus, 90 mins a week of mass with no entertainment and only boredom and hymns and liturgy does help forge self control and self restraint.

This sort of brainwashing is startling to me. I'd rather have a child that doesn’t get compliments on behavior than one who is stuck in a narrow "god given" box. I value free thought over obedience in general.

This. No, PP, “God has designed” for you and their father to take full responsibility for the care of all the children you chose to create, not to pawn it off on your barely teen kid.