Divorce over chores and WOHM

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What part of the house does your DH clean? If it is all on you, and he is wanting a minimalist house without the work of it- then he is delusional.

I agree that couple therapy is due and he needs to step up with 50% of the cleaning OR get over his reluctance to outside paid help. You also need to hire an organizer to help you get rid of all the old kids stuff and organize the rest.

OP here: Yes, DH is delusional! Thank you! I’m the one who wants to stay married and not seethe and resent DH, so I’m trying to solicit how others might feel. I seek to understand. I also recognize I’m delusional...I just don’t “see”the clutter as a problem.

He does nearly nothing around the house as related to daily chores. One of our biggest fights was over all the work a new baby requires.

Me: Crying and yelling because dishwasher was loaded but wasn’t run and I have no clean bottles, after I asked him to do the dishes. I felt like I had to do everything
He: Why are you mad...I’m doing everything you tell me.
Me: If you can’t figure out the baby needs to eat again soon and needs a clean bottle, washed pump flange, etc., then I am just too tired to even begin to explain. Run the goddamn dishwasher on half cycle instead of waiting for a full load.

I used to be married to someone who was a tidy non-cleaner, while I am a messy deep cleaner (wash and dry clothes, but leave them clean in the basket or don't make the bed but do sweep and mop the bedroom floor). My ex either happily did 20% or unhappily did 50% of household chores. I don't know what the answer is. I felt like so much of my work went unseen and somehow my spouse was able to outlast me when I went on strike and the ring in the tub got dirtier and the piles of lint under the bed got bigger. At one point shaming by older relatives helped temporarily "you really expect her to come home from work, cook, and then do the dishes!"

Maybe writing out tasks with time estimations and then dividing them, so you each have areas of work you are responsible for?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if your DH is bothered by the laundry on the couch, then one of his DAILY tasks should be to run a load, dry a load, and put away a load. He should also be in charge of changing and washing all the bedding and towels as that is a related task.

Agree.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous]OP here: Regarding question about what other room(s) are not being used. My response is long winded but the clutter and chaos can be pretty bad.

Can park in only one space out of two in garage. The former nursery room is a staging room for next DIY bathroom renovation (finished one year before). Living room has mirrors and paintings leaning in corner with boxes of outgrown baby toys (but I cleaned out this corner on Monday but added two glass-door cabinets for books; DH prefers empty corner). Half of guest room used for toy storage and kids’ clothes. Horizontal surfaces have clutter. The dining room table usually has stacks of paper, work notes, items to return to store, bags of googly eyes and sequins for puppetmaking, etc. I leave the “inert” clutter until the next party or big seasonal cleanup. The house is clean and decorated when we have big parties, but it’s cluttered during the rest of the time. Toys underfoot in master bedroom and den. Clean laundry sits on sofa during the week until I fold it. Hallways are clear of stuff and clutter, which allows robot vac to sweep. Bathrooms are clean but lots of bath toys surrounding kids’ tub. It’s definitely the volume and clutter. Basement is a mini Costco with floor-to-ceiling stuff: paper towels, boxes of diapers, extra hiking boots, place settings and serving sets, and toothpaste; boxes from move not yet unpacked; and next year’s Christmas presents (yes, already).

I thought this was mostly normal messiness (esp. laundry on sofa) for a family with two WOH spouses, little kids, and no cleaning service—but it sounds like many families do better on a daily basis. People in our circle with neater houses have no (young) kids, a SAHM/D, neatnik spouse (WOHM/D) who cleans everything, and/or cleaning service.

Was open about clutter and habits during dating but the means and volume have increased. I am using elfa, shelving and other storage solutions (color-coded bins for holiday decor in the basement) but DH minds the clutter (e.g., two Christmas trees). I love a wall of books from floor to ceiling, but he just sees clutter and visual noise. He likes a mostly empty space...imagine one book or item on each bookshelf.


[/quote]

None of this, I repeat none of this, is normal. Except maybe bath toys in the bathtub.

[Anonymous]

If DH isn't going to be responsible for the work and expects you to be the responsible one, he has no say in how it gets done. If that means hiring help, hire help. DH shuts up or puts up.

[Anonymous]

OP I mean this nicely. You need help for a mental health issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I mean this nicely. You need help for a mental health issue.

+1. And you need a professional declutterer. And stop buying shit. If you want out of the hole, first you have to put down the shovel.

[Anonymous]

OP needs to unpack her issues before she unpacks your clutter. It would be good if her husband did so too but that's not up to her. Therapy and then tackle the cleaning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. You're only thinking of the most extreme cases of hoarding. And since its not that bad, you think it's okay. Obviously, no one can see into your home but the level of the clutter, you're describing is excessive and possibly on the mild end of the hoarder scale.

So definitely therapy for you, possibly a regular cleaning service, and your dh should definitely also be doing his part. For example, if having laundry sit on the sofa all week really bothers him, he can be responsible for doing the laundry and putting it away.

OP here: Takeaways so far include reduce buying and get cleaning service (I know enough that you’ve got to clean/dexlutter before the cleaning service comes) as part of an overall decluttering effort. I really need to understand how the other side is feeling. DH is not a talker.

Just getting a baseline: So a model in a magazine is understoood universally as an impossible standard and no one walking around looks like that (withiut just looking good being a full-rime job). I don’t wear any makeup unless I have a presentation t work. I similarly assumed that photos in House Beautiful and home blogs are the same...an impossible unrealistic standard that some do choose to chase. I assumed it was fake nd similarikynimprison women in a trap of their own making. BTW, no one else keeps laundry on the sofa? I guess I am ashamed if it’s so out of the norm.

I feel like I got clutter but little to no crud (I hope that’s not delusional but just my threshold). It’s kinda easy to avoid crud because no food is allowed anywhere outside the kitchen unless it’s a party or movie night (popcorn) and I’d know I’d need to wipe down, etc. My ongoing assumption that clean clutter (fresh laundry on sofa) would be “acceptable because we’re busy” is not working, because he’s stressed about it. I guess my natural tolerance is different from DH. I think he is feeling burned out as am I.

Regarding chores, DH is mechanically inclined and (competently) repairs and installs things (washing machine, 40 feet of kitchen drain plumbing, new front door, apron front kitchen sink, pot lights, hardwood flooring) and DH is a helpful person (shovels for elderly neighbors, checks nd replace their roof flashing, clean out gutters, etc.). We both generally have been beloved by our elderly neighbors but they make a point to tell me i’m lucky to have him esp after he’s fixed something for them. I join him for shoveling and some projects (been staying on sidelines more now that there is a toddler to watch) but I always stayed off of the roof. ? I also have big projects: installed mosaic marble floor tile in the bathroom, installed garage elfa on three walls, breastfed DD and DS until 18-20 months (stopped now), etc. These big projects are great and feel like accomplishments but it’s the daily stuff that’s hard. There’s stuff you have to do everyday: plan and buy food, feed kids, wash out pumping gear and bottles (stopped now), wash toddler’s poop butt, walk dogs, have enough clean clothes (my solution was multiples of same clothing), etc. I like to be chill and happy and I feel like most housework sucks away your time and no one appreciates it. If we do need to clean, let’s make it a family activity with everyone. And really it’s a self-imposed standard...why choose that over taking DS to the park? I said I wanted to take kiddos to visit family in Orlando during President Day weekend and he said I should stay home to clean. (He hates traveling.)

My neatnik roommate during grad school for many years notes, when asked, that I was terrible at the daily chores but rocked on the periodic big projects: seasonal detailing of bathroom, fridge, ceiling fans, tile grout; cleaning showerhead mineral buildup; reorg contents of kitchen drawers and pantry, etc. [b]how can I get DH’s recognition that the cooking (groceries, budgeting) and childcare are big projects too?

I’d like to hear more from posters who had insight from being messy/cluttered/hoarding or living or experiencing hoarding from a DH or DW. Maybe more detail on what frustration DH is feeling. I feel like daily pickup/clean up is a no-win situation. Why vacuum everyday when once a week (hmmm...fessing up to every other week) works just as well? We do wear slippers or house Uggs at home. Literally, what is a good mopping/vacuuming frequency? Is it okay to keep the clean laundry that we on th sofa in four baskets at the foot of the master bed? DH says it’s an eye sore. I feel like there is no winning. My coworker vacuums twice daily, because she likes to see the vacuum lines, but she’s fessed up that she knows she’s the crazy one.

I think my threshold will be to get those rooms to their official purpose (park second car in garage, guest room will be guest ready, dining table will be ready for possibility of dinner guests at short notice, etc.) and then if that’s not good enough (re: baskets in bedroom), then I’m done.

Thanks.

Is your dh from a culture where men don't do any sort of domestic work? Most neatniks will naturally clean/organize because in their nature to do so. It's unusual to have a neatnik who doesn't do anything sort of cleaning/organizing on their own initiative. Anyways, if your dh isn't willing to put in any effort, then he doesn't get a say.

For this to work, each individual should have chores that they are solely in charge of it. Since your husband complains a lot about laundry, he can be in charge of laundry (washing/folding/putting away). He can also vacuum once a week. Then, you can have cleaners once or twice a month to deep clean? While you can be in charge of grocery shopping and cooking.

So basically, make a list of all things necessary for daily upkeep and split the list in half.

[Anonymous]

Clutter stresses me out. I have a 6 and a 3 year old, so theres always toys and kids' stuff/junk around. Their PJs or socks, their artwork/scribbles they bring home/crayons/paper/books/chapstick/goodie bag junk/costumes/gloves. I make them clean up but its limited in what they can do. I tell them whatever toys end up in tbe kitchen, the hallways, and the master bedroom will go in the trash. That helps, though the 3 year old still leaves stuff in the prohibited places.

Anyway, DH and I are both a bit of a packrat, but too much clutter makes me stressed, overwhelmed, snippy, tired, and frustrated. Our arguments over the clutter level of the house (he can tolerate more clutter and does nothing related to cleaning and we both WOH) decreased once we got a cleaner every 3 weeks. The great thing about them coming is that it forces me to pick up messes, declutter a bit, do the dishes or clear away the table since they need access to vaccum, mop, clean the sink, whatever. DH was against spending $ on cleaners, but with two young kids, it becomes worth it. I convinced him and he now agrees.

Btw if youre doing the cooking what is he doing? Maybe let him do that and you can do more cleaning. Lastly, I can totally see your DH point of view that you respect guests enough to clean up but disrespect DH by not doing it for HIM. If you left the house a mess for guests too, then he wouldn't feel as disrespected.

[Anonymous]

OP, I loved you including toddler poop butt. I have to follow my just turned 3 year old to the bathroom after poops, because he leaves streaks. I wash his but with water because TP is too abrasive on his unusually sensitive skin. Then I need to supervise his handwashing. I often have to help him back into his underwear and pants. Then I need to put the poop from the potty into the toilet, flush, wash my hands. I do this poop chore morning and evening. Just yesterday I got angry at my husband because I do 99 of out 100 of these and he does 1. I've done this poop duty hundreds of times. Its one of those things that add up to sucking up one's hours and its not even something evident/noticeable like cooking and putting a meal on the table you can see. Moms as default patents have so much of this type of tasks to do it's exhausting. What makes it worse is that oftentimes husbands dont even realize how much of a time suck it is. Like setting up and washing breast pump parts, washing bottles. I pumped over 3,000 times and really resented how time consuming it was. Anyway, my main point is that maybe it's time to re-divide the household chores. And hugs.

[Anonymous]

I also think OP and her husband need to not take on new “projects” which she sort of uses as 1) an excuse for clutter and 2) a reason why her husband can’t do more day to day stuff.

This is not too say that I think OP’s husband should be constantly picking up after OP.

But I think decluttering should be “project” numero uno.

[Anonymous]

OP, I am kind of you. My husband would probably say I'm 100% you - ha ha.

I am not great at housework. I can't walk through a room and just pick everything up and get it where it's supposed to go - it is a process for me, and not a quick one.

While I definitely think you need to work on de-cluttering, I think your husband needs to work in doing, well, ANYTHING. Mine is kind of like yours - thinks somehow the house should look like House Beautiful without him lifting a finger while I do pretty much 100% of cooking, grocery shopping, kids' stuff, etc. He's gotten a little better recently (will do laundry and put it away) but never mops, sweeps, vacuums, etc. Oh, and he's not at all handy.

So, I sympathize more than offer a solution. One thing my husband will and did do was just got rid of the stuff I kept saying I was going to post on the work message board to sell, etc. He just took it away and now it's gone. That was a little tough for me, but he was 100% in the right.

After reading this thread my plan is to put my routine in writing, be tougher on my kids (8 and 12, but spoiled by life overseas with nannies/maids), bi-weekly cleaner, and negotiate with my husband on the rest.

[Anonymous]

OP, I’m the neat nick wife of the boarderline hoarder who posted earlier, and am replying again because you asked to hear more.

I wonder if it would help to start with some clutter free zones. I would probably want those to be dining room table, kitchen counter, and entire living room (or wherever you hang out as a family). It sounds like laundry is a problem. I have decided that our bedroom is going to have baskets of clean laundry, and I can live with it. Maybe you could have one basket per family member, and the basket simply goes from bedroom to washer to dryer and back to bedroom without stops in between? Forget folding and putting away.

While it sounds like your house is clean (yay!) your DH may not be able to feel the clean due to clutter. Clutter looks the same as dirt to him - stuff that shouldn’t be there. But clutter is bigger and harder to ignore than dirt! Why not take a break on cleaning, and focus on making clutter-free space? See how DH reacts.

[Anonymous]

Are you cool with delegating him to throw stuff out? Like could he go through the toys or kid clothes with your kids one day while you're gone and get rid of 70% of it, or would you be upset? What about the bathroom renovation staging room/former nursery?

Laundry on the couch all week every week isn't normal. I suspect that's only partly because you don't have time to put clothes away and partly because if all the clothes are clean they don't fit neatly and easily into the closets/dressers.

If there is usually stuff on the dining room table, can it be put in its proper place in 15 minutes or so? After a long battle with my own clutter tendencies, I'm still a pretty messy person and things tend to pile up. But it only takes me 20 minutes or so to clean up the main floor because everything has a clear and easily accessible (not stacked or buried) place. (Except for the floating island of crap-with-no-home, which is small, has a dedicated corner in the basement, and I work on regularly). So not only does it not take that long, anyone can do the putting away who knows the basic storage areas of the house. I had to get rid of about 50% of my possessions to achieve this (not kidding).


All of that is tidying, not really cleaning, and it's harder to hire someone to help with it. It also makes cleaning pretty difficult and basically impossible for an outside hire. So the hiring is only part of the issue. It honestly sounds like you have a pretty serious hoarding issue and you should probably be looking for a specialist to help you cull the stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I doubt OP is a hoarder if her house can be cleaned up to host Christmas parties.. You need a lot of clean surface to make gingerbread houses.

Yeah but under normal circumstances what would still be lingering from the gingerbread house making clean up?