Punishing your child by not letting them a birthday party last minute

[Anonymous]

I agree w/you.

There are other forms of punishment that do not affect others. This parent should not have banned her child from attending your child's party, most esp. knowing that he would be one of a few guests.

Shame on her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I don't understand is why a kid (bday kid) would be so disappointed. Does the kid really care or does the parent care? My DH doesn't seem to care about these things.

Are you socially inept? You wouldn't be disappointed if you planned dinner out with three friends and one of them cancelled at the last minute?

[Anonymous]

It's rude. The other mom punished the birthday child. Once the RSVP was given as "yes," you don't cancel. The punishment prior to that can be not being allowed to accept the invitation. Bad job, Other Mom.

[Anonymous]

OP here.Thanks for the array of opinions. I intentionally had a small party because I am tired of huge parties and I don't let my kids have medium-sized parties that tend to get discussed at school and result in hurt feelings. I am not fixated on this one family and my child has countless friends--if I had known this child would cancel due to something other than illness, I would have encouraged her to invite someone else. In fact, I ended up inviting a "replacement" who was happy to come (a neighbor who is younger and did not clue into the late invite anyway).

My argument about withholding the party as encouraging your child to believe the world revolves around her is that it fosters a belief that birthday parties are just for the guests' entertainment. I think they are to celebrate the birthday child, and I try to relay this to my kids. If you say you will go, you go. You buy a gift you think the kid will like and then you go have a good time helping that kid celebrate. It's not an event that is just being thrown for your entertainment that you or your parent can decide on a whim not to attend (as I see it), but rather someone else's special event that you were invited to attend. This is how I feel about weddings, too. You don't pull out at the last minute. I don't think my children are the center of the universe, and this was a very low-key party (at home, tea party, grocery store cupcakes, no planned games), but I do disagree with using our invitation/special event as a discipline tool when so many are available. I realize that my values may differ with some on this site (and I do honestly greatly appreciate your points of view), but this really conflicted with mine (reliability is very important to me).

All in all, my child did not seem to care too much about the other child's absence. I was the one who was offended and I posted here because it bothered me and I wanted to avoid the temptation to vent to friends who know the family who skipped because I don't want to gossip about it. Thanks for discussing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who punish their children instead of properly disciplining them don't do parenting right anyway. Flame away I don't care. All that child is learning right now is to be extremely sad and resentful towards the parents for not letting him/her go to the party. How about logical and natural consequences for bad behavior instead of parents just showing that they have the power to take away whatever they want from a child...

If your child behaves so badly that you feel the need to take away a birthday party where you are one of three invited and a close friend...maybe you've done something wrong along the way and your way of parenting isn't working very well to begin with...

OK wise parenting one-- tell us how you would have handled this? I do think not attending a birthday party CAN be a natural consequence of bad behavior. I tell my child all the time that only kids who behave can go out to dinner (for example) because kids who run around screaming aren't allowed in restaurants. Likewise, kids who are out of control (or hit other kids or scream etc) are not welcome at birthday parties where they will have to play nicely with other children. However...if I had RSVP'ed to attend a 3 person birthday party, I would not use that as the punishment unless it was really egregious. If it was a 30 person, whole-class party at chuck-e-cheese, I might think differently.

I am going to reply even though you started with a snarky remark...

Taking away a birthday party is NEVER a natural consequence. "Natural consequence" means a consequence that occurs naturally by the childs behavior - not a punishment artificially given to the child. Not attending a birthday party also most likely wasn't even a logical consequence in this case. This would have been logical for example:

1. Child needs to wear sunscreen to the birthday party because it's a pool party and the sun is blazing.
2. Child refuses to wear sunscreen.
3. You say "Okay, don't wear sunscreen - but you can not go to the party then as it requires you wear sunscreen."

That is logical consequence. Not natural. Natural would be:

1. Child needs to wear sunscreen to the birthday party because it's a pool party and the sun is blazing.
2. Child refuses to wear sunscreen.
3. You say "Okay, don't wear sunscreen." Child goes to the party and gets a very bad sunburn. Sunburn = Natural consequence of not wearing sunscreen.

IN OPs CASE:

1. Kid behaves badly at home.
2. Kid goes to party anyway.
3. Kid behaves badly at party.
4. Kid gets to hear how other kids don't want to play because of bad behavior. Kid is sent home early because of bad behavior. THAT is the natural consequence.

IN YOUR CASE:

1. Kid behaves badly at home.
2. Kid goes to restaurant anyway.
3. Kid gets mean stares, bad comments from other customers, eventually the family has to leave. THAT is the natural consequence.

The point of natural consequences is to let children experience by themselves what their behaviors do to other people and in return the consequences it has for them. It means a lot of stepping back and holding back on the parents part.
The point of logical consequences is to intervene as a parent mostly before a natural consequence occurs to actively teach children right from wrong and to teach them consequences that usually aren't as harsh as natural ones would be.

And then there's punishment. That's a whole different story and that's what has happened here.

I can not say what the natural or logical consequence would have been for the child not allowed to go to the party because I do not know what exactly that child even did wrong in the first place...but that child was being punished, not shown natural OR logical consequence.

Gotta say, with zero sarcasm, this is one of the best comments I've ever seen on dcum. So precise and explanatory!

Except that the "natural" consequence of leaving the restaurant due to bad behavior punishes the whole family more than the kid. Maybe kid didn't want to be there and that's why he was acting up--they leave, he wins.

It's not always so cut and dry.

No need to put "natural" in quotes. If you don't like to deal with natural consequences then be honest about it and use logical ones instead. If you don't want to deal with either form of consequences be honest about it and use punishment but don't go around telling people nothing else works for your child because the reason it doesn't is because you as parent chose not to stick with it and use the easier way instead. Nobody likes to hear it but it is the truth.
The natural consequence of a child acting up at a restaurant is that the child will be asked to leave - if the child is old enough child could be driven home by one parent and left alone for the rest of the night. If not one parent could leave with the child while everyone else stays. Or everyone could leave. It's not over with leaving the restaurant. Of course you also need to communicate how having to leave due to your childs behavior makes you feel. And the only reason this might not be affective is if a child has zero empathy (autistic kids for example) or if a child has been punished so long that at first using consequences doesn't seem affective. Stick with it and it will be. I know because I have worked with kids for over 10 years. I have met kids from all kinds of disciplinary backgrounds. Kids who were spanked. Kids who were punished. Kids who had no rules at home. Kids who were used to consequences as disciplinary tools. Kids who were just well behaved and kids who were all kinds of misbehaved. It is about being sincere, genuine and the most important part is communication.

The point is: Just saying "We don't yell in restaurants. No TV tonight." doesn't teach anything. It only punishes. And it makes kids try to avoid bad behavior because they don't want to be punished...not because they have learned that bad behavior is wrong and because they know how bad behavior affects others and they don't want to make others feel bad. Don't you want to raise socially skilled, empathetic children who later know right from wrong, have a conscience and WANT to treat others well because they know how their actions affect the world around them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who punish their children instead of properly disciplining them don't do parenting right anyway. Flame away I don't care. All that child is learning right now is to be extremely sad and resentful towards the parents for not letting him/her go to the party. How about logical and natural consequences for bad behavior instead of parents just showing that they have the power to take away whatever they want from a child...

If your child behaves so badly that you feel the need to take away a birthday party where you are one of three invited and a close friend...maybe you've done something wrong along the way and your way of parenting isn't working very well to begin with...

OK wise parenting one-- tell us how you would have handled this? I do think not attending a birthday party CAN be a natural consequence of bad behavior. I tell my child all the time that only kids who behave can go out to dinner (for example) because kids who run around screaming aren't allowed in restaurants. Likewise, kids who are out of control (or hit other kids or scream etc) are not welcome at birthday parties where they will have to play nicely with other children. However...if I had RSVP'ed to attend a 3 person birthday party, I would not use that as the punishment unless it was really egregious. If it was a 30 person, whole-class party at chuck-e-cheese, I might think differently.

I am going to reply even though you started with a snarky remark...

Taking away a birthday party is NEVER a natural consequence. "Natural consequence" means a consequence that occurs naturally by the childs behavior - not a punishment artificially given to the child. Not attending a birthday party also most likely wasn't even a logical consequence in this case. This would have been logical for example:

1. Child needs to wear sunscreen to the birthday party because it's a pool party and the sun is blazing.
2. Child refuses to wear sunscreen.
3. You say "Okay, don't wear sunscreen - but you can not go to the party then as it requires you wear sunscreen."

That is logical consequence. Not natural. Natural would be:

1. Child needs to wear sunscreen to the birthday party because it's a pool party and the sun is blazing.
2. Child refuses to wear sunscreen.
3. You say "Okay, don't wear sunscreen." Child goes to the party and gets a very bad sunburn. Sunburn = Natural consequence of not wearing sunscreen.

IN OPs CASE:

1. Kid behaves badly at home.
2. Kid goes to party anyway.
3. Kid behaves badly at party.
4. Kid gets to hear how other kids don't want to play because of bad behavior. Kid is sent home early because of bad behavior. THAT is the natural consequence.

IN YOUR CASE:

1. Kid behaves badly at home.
2. Kid goes to restaurant anyway.
3. Kid gets mean stares, bad comments from other customers, eventually the family has to leave. THAT is the natural consequence.

The point of natural consequences is to let children experience by themselves what their behaviors do to other people and in return the consequences it has for them. It means a lot of stepping back and holding back on the parents part.
The point of logical consequences is to intervene as a parent mostly before a natural consequence occurs to actively teach children right from wrong and to teach them consequences that usually aren't as harsh as natural ones would be.

And then there's punishment. That's a whole different story and that's what has happened here.

I can not say what the natural or logical consequence would have been for the child not allowed to go to the party because I do not know what exactly that child even did wrong in the first place...but that child was being punished, not shown natural OR logical consequence.

It depends on the child. One thing may work for your child but not mine. Taking away video games and using that as a token reward system works best but if my child acted up at a restaurant or prior to leaving, he would not be going - simple. I am not ruining another person's mean or wasting our money with an acting up child. If we leave, no, you are not going out in public for a long time again. Or, if my child acted up before a party and could not calm down, then no, he's not going. If he cannot behave at home, I cannot trust him to behave out in public. I would do my best to get him to the party (and its never been an issue for us) but actions have consequences and just someone gossiping about my kids poor behavior isn't going to do it for him. He will not care.

A natural consequence can be not going to a party. If we had to go out to eat with our family and my child severely acted up to the point we had to leave, a very appropriate consequence would be not to go to a party for him. That is very logical. Saying, hey, you act up and you are going to bed 30 minutes early for tonight would not be as effective as a party he looked forward to.

No. A natural consequence is one that occurs naturally without anyone artificially setting it up. Again: not driving your kid to the party because he/she misbehaves COULD be a logical consequence but never a natural one. For example:

1. Child misbehaves, throwing a tantrum.
2. You say "We want to go to Larlos party but to do that you need to get into the car, put on your seat belt and sit quietly so Mom can drive safely."
3. Child keeps throwing a tantrum.
4. You say "Okay, I can not drive to the party like this. When you have calmed down we can go. Let me know!"
5. Child keeps kicking and screaming so you can not go. THAT is a logical consequence.

So if the child's bad behavior is directly linked to going to the party THEN yes it could be a logical consequence not to go. But I very highly doubt that happened in OPs case. I also highly doubt that any child acting up right before leaving would not be able to get a grip and make it possible to still go. You may be a bit late but that's better than not going. It takes patience and time and effort on the parents part though.

And I agree with OP: birthday parties are for the birthday child. Birthdays are (to some people) the most important event of the year because that's when someone was born. Without a birthday we all wouldn't be here so how can it not be a very important event? You go to a birthday party to share joy with the birthday child, to say how happy you are that they were born. To give a gift to show your happiness. To celebrate that they exist and that you know each other. I know, I know...the actual meaning of birthday parties is lost to many people nowadays but clearly OP still holds that value dearly. Your child not going to a birthday party affects the birthday child. If you are into punishment I am absolutely certain there are at least 10 other things your child was looking forward to that you can take away. Things that don't partly ruin another child's most important day of the year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here.Thanks for the array of opinions. I intentionally had a small party because I am tired of huge parties and I don't let my kids have medium-sized parties that tend to get discussed at school and result in hurt feelings. I am not fixated on this one family and my child has countless friends--if I had known this child would cancel due to something other than illness, I would have encouraged her to invite someone else. In fact, I ended up inviting a "replacement" who was happy to come (a neighbor who is younger and did not clue into the late invite anyway).

My argument about withholding the party as encouraging your child to believe the world revolves around her is that it fosters a belief that birthday parties are just for the guests' entertainment. I think they are to celebrate the birthday child, and I try to relay this to my kids. If you say you will go, you go. You buy a gift you think the kid will like and then you go have a good time helping that kid celebrate. It's not an event that is just being thrown for your entertainment that you or your parent can decide on a whim not to attend (as I see it), but rather someone else's special event that you were invited to attend. This is how I feel about weddings, too. You don't pull out at the last minute. I don't think my children are the center of the universe, and this was a very low-key party (at home, tea party, grocery store cupcakes, no planned games), but I do disagree with using our invitation/special event as a discipline tool when so many are available. I realize that my values may differ with some on this site (and I do honestly greatly appreciate your points of view), but this really conflicted with mine (reliability is very important to me).

All in all, my child did not seem to care too much about the other child's absence. I was the one who was offended and I posted here because it bothered me and I wanted to avoid the temptation to vent to friends who know the family who skipped because I don't want to gossip about it. Thanks for discussing.

OP, you just compared your child's 3 person birthday party to a wedding. This mentality is why you're getting piled on.

[Anonymous]

I don't think its fair to punish your child for the other child's misbehavior. That mom sucks, sorry OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I don't understand is why a kid (bday kid) would be so disappointed. Does the kid really care or does the parent care? My DH doesn't seem to care about these things.

Are you socially inept? You wouldn't be disappointed if you planned dinner out with three friends and one of them cancelled at the last minute?

NP, I'm extremely socially inept, and I'm be very disappointed. PP is crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I don't understand is why a kid (bday kid) would be so disappointed. Does the kid really care or does the parent care? My DH doesn't seem to care about these things.

Are you socially inept? You wouldn't be disappointed if you planned dinner out with three friends and one of them cancelled at the last minute?

NP, I'm extremely socially inept, and I'm be very disappointed. PP is crazy.

I meant to say, PP is a sociopath.

[Anonymous]

Depends on the severity of the child's behavior. Did he do something so appallingly violent that you're not sure it's safe to allow your child around others and need to have your child evaluated before determining what will be safe going forward? If so, then yes, skip the birthday party.

Short of that, then punish the kid immediately and then move on with life. Have the kid miss out on cake at the party if you really want to reinforce the message.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.Thanks for the array of opinions. I intentionally had a small party because I am tired of huge parties and I don't let my kids have medium-sized parties that tend to get discussed at school and result in hurt feelings. I am not fixated on this one family and my child has countless friends--if I had known this child would cancel due to something other than illness, I would have encouraged her to invite someone else. In fact, I ended up inviting a "replacement" who was happy to come (a neighbor who is younger and did not clue into the late invite anyway).

My argument about withholding the party as encouraging your child to believe the world revolves around her is that it fosters a belief that birthday parties are just for the guests' entertainment. I think they are to celebrate the birthday child, and I try to relay this to my kids. If you say you will go, you go. You buy a gift you think the kid will like and then you go have a good time helping that kid celebrate. It's not an event that is just being thrown for your entertainment that you or your parent can decide on a whim not to attend (as I see it), but rather someone else's special event that you were invited to attend. This is how I feel about weddings, too. You don't pull out at the last minute. I don't think my children are the center of the universe, and this was a very low-key party (at home, tea party, grocery store cupcakes, no planned games), but I do disagree with using our invitation/special event as a discipline tool when so many are available. I realize that my values may differ with some on this site (and I do honestly greatly appreciate your points of view), but this really conflicted with mine (reliability is very important to me).

All in all, my child did not seem to care too much about the other child's absence. I was the one who was offended and I posted here because it bothered me and I wanted to avoid the temptation to vent to friends who know the family who skipped because I don't want to gossip about it. Thanks for discussing.

OP, you just compared your child's 3 person birthday party to a wedding. This mentality is why you're getting piled on.

A) That's called an analogy and was aimed at getting across that a birthday party is like a wedding in that it is not primarily about the guests, and I am trying to teach my kids that. I do not teach my children that the world is out there for their entertainment and they can just dip in as they see fit when the event is about someone else and they have committed to attend. Obviously a child's small tea party is not nearly as important as a wedding; the analogy was about who the event is about, not it's importance.

B) As I also explained, my DH and I emphasize reliability as an important value. Keeping your word, including by not flaking on events, is something we strive to do. I keep my word with my kids and we model that behavior with regard to family events, and I see them keeping their word and commitments and I am proud of that. I think that many people are pretty flakey these days, especially now that you can just text and say "oh sorry, we're not coming!" and this cultural shift is not something I or my kids will be embracing if I have anything to do with it. I think this is a key showing of respect for others. I am also always on time. Call me uptight, but my friends and colleagues appreciate these traits.

[Anonymous]

OP I just wanted to say to your last two posts...I hear you. And I absolutely agree with you. With everything you said. I am actually very happy and surprised to see someone on this board has the same opinion as me. Seems to be very rare these days. I wish I knew more people like you who share my values!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I just wanted to say to your last two posts...I hear you. And I absolutely agree with you. With everything you said. I am actually very happy and surprised to see someone on this board has the same opinion as me. Seems to be very rare these days. I wish I knew more people like you who share my values!

OP here. Thanks. Maybe we are friends already IRL

[Anonymous]

You know what? It is a free country. A parent can take away what they want as a punishment. But if you back out of my child's 3 kid party for that reason, you and your family will not be invited to any events in our home again. So you do what's best for you, and then I'll do what's best for me, and we'll go our ways.