Need outside perspective on a fight with DH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah women are complete hypocrites about everything. The same women at work going on and on about diversity and emotional intelligence head out running in the morning to playlists full of talk about hoes, drinking, being sluts etc. it's ...empowering or something

You can be empowered, be emotionally intelligent, have a career, and still enjoy sex. Even rough sex, degrading sex, casual sex, sex with multiple men.

The key is consent. If you didn’t consent to sexual contact with a man, he has zero right to touch you, send you pictures, or talk to you sexually. If you say no, he needs to stop.

I absolutely respect those rights, but please don't play songs about it in front of my children

Hate to break it to you, but your kids are gonna hear it anyway. And god help you when your sheltered child grows up and moves away.

I grew up in a very evangelical, Focus On The Family community where kids were sheltered and sex was seen as bad. Every single one of those kids ended up promiscuous after they left home, with many unplanned pregnancies.

Better to have open and honest conversations with your kids about sex. Sheltering never helped anybody.

Do you understand the difference between anecdotes and data?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah women are complete hypocrites about everything. The same women at work going on and on about diversity and emotional intelligence head out running in the morning to playlists full of talk about hoes, drinking, being sluts etc. it's ...empowering or something

You can be empowered, be emotionally intelligent, have a career, and still enjoy sex. Even rough sex, degrading sex, casual sex, sex with multiple men.

The key is consent. If you didn’t consent to sexual contact with a man, he has zero right to touch you, send you pictures, or talk to you sexually. If you say no, he needs to stop.

I absolutely respect those rights, but please don't play songs about it in front of my children

Hate to break it to you, but your kids are gonna hear it anyway. And god help you when your sheltered child grows up and moves away.

I grew up in a very evangelical, Focus On The Family community where kids were sheltered and sex was seen as bad. Every single one of those kids ended up promiscuous after they left home, with many unplanned pregnancies.

Better to have open and honest conversations with your kids about sex. Sheltering never helped anybody.

Do you understand the difference between anecdotes and data?

Data shows that abstinence only education has zero impact on pregnancy and STD rates, and in some cases actually increased them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah women are complete hypocrites about everything. The same women at work going on and on about diversity and emotional intelligence head out running in the morning to playlists full of talk about hoes, drinking, being sluts etc. it's ...empowering or something

You can be empowered, be emotionally intelligent, have a career, and still enjoy sex. Even rough sex, degrading sex, casual sex, sex with multiple men.

The key is consent. If you didn’t consent to sexual contact with a man, he has zero right to touch you, send you pictures, or talk to you sexually. If you say no, he needs to stop.

I absolutely respect those rights, but please don't play songs about it in front of my children

Hate to break it to you, but your kids are gonna hear it anyway. And god help you when your sheltered child grows up and moves away.

I grew up in a very evangelical, Focus On The Family community where kids were sheltered and sex was seen as bad. Every single one of those kids ended up promiscuous after they left home, with many unplanned pregnancies.

Better to have open and honest conversations with your kids about sex. Sheltering never helped anybody.

Ironically, an open and honest conversation is what OPs dh started. The kids even got involved thinking about what the song meant, and maybe even the societal meaning.

It wasn’t open and honest. Open and honest would be “as a woman, how do you feel about XYZ?” Instead he just went on the attack and did the dreaded “you people”. He wasn’t interested in hearing other perspectives, he was interested in bullying people and feeding his own ego.

I think you and I agree on the value of open discussion. But I don't think open discussion always has to be presented softly like you're saying. Sometimes it's confrontational, and that's fine.

Also, for the record, if my dd has multiple partners and unplanned pregnancies, I would not judge her. If she decided to become a stripper in west Hollywood, I would be be so disappointed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah women are complete hypocrites about everything. The same women at work going on and on about diversity and emotional intelligence head out running in the morning to playlists full of talk about hoes, drinking, being sluts etc. it's ...empowering or something

You can be empowered, be emotionally intelligent, have a career, and still enjoy sex. Even rough sex, degrading sex, casual sex, sex with multiple men.

The key is consent. If you didn’t consent to sexual contact with a man, he has zero right to touch you, send you pictures, or talk to you sexually. If you say no, he needs to stop.

I absolutely respect those rights, but please don't play songs about it in front of my children

Hate to break it to you, but your kids are gonna hear it anyway. And god help you when your sheltered child grows up and moves away.

I grew up in a very evangelical, Focus On The Family community where kids were sheltered and sex was seen as bad. Every single one of those kids ended up promiscuous after they left home, with many unplanned pregnancies.

Better to have open and honest conversations with your kids about sex. Sheltering never helped anybody.

Ironically, an open and honest conversation is what OPs dh started. The kids even got involved thinking about what the song meant, and maybe even the societal meaning.

It wasn’t open and honest. Open and honest would be “as a woman, how do you feel about XYZ?” Instead he just went on the attack and did the dreaded “you people”. He wasn’t interested in hearing other perspectives, he was interested in bullying people and feeding his own ego.

I think you and I agree on the value of open discussion. But I don't think open discussion always has to be presented softly like you're saying. Sometimes it's confrontational, and that's fine.

Also, for the record, if my dd has multiple partners and unplanned pregnancies, I would not judge her. If she decided to become a stripper in west Hollywood, I would be be so disappointed.

Good thing the song is about drag shows, not stripping.

[Anonymous]

Name the song OP.

"women" are so confused, that "you claim to not want to be objectified" but then "you like songs that are totally about objectifying women"." But generally he's not wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Need an outside perspective for a stupid fight I had with DH.

I was playing a song, and DH made a comment about it to basically crap on it. Something to the effect of how "you women" are so confused, that "you claim to not want to be objectified" but then "you like songs that are totally about objectifying women". It led to a disagreement - I disagreed that the song was objectifying - my interpretation was that it was about freedom to be who you wanted to be. He had a completely different take, and said it was about wanting to work as a stripper. I did not agree. He also said he was surprised my relative, who claims to be a "christian" likes the song also.

It led to a heated argument. He went on one of his rants as I call it - he says it is a logical argument. He says he only says this because he deeply sympathizes with the absolute tragedy of women's utter confusion with these toxic messages that they are bombarded with. I said, "thanks for your sympathies - but really, I'M GOOD.". It led to some other B.S. arguments where he was just really trying to prove his point, and start talking circles around me with all of these "logical arguments".

The kids were listening and apparently getting tired of hearing it. My son looked up the meaning of the song and it basically lined up with my interpretation. But DH kept digging deeper to prove me wrong. I said, maybe you should apologize for making judgments about me. He said he wasn't judging me, he was referring to ALL women. Kept rambling on. Eventually acknowledged that I simply had a different interpretation of the song. I said, instead of attacking me with your litany of words, it would just be so much simpler if you just said "I'm sorry". He says "I'm sorry you have the complete wrong idea about what I'm trying to say--You always do this to me, you completely misinterpret my intention and it's really hurtful and offensive that you think so little of me." He started getting really upset.
I said "and you always turn everything around to make yourself the victim". On and on.

So honest opinions welcome. If I was in the wrong, I want to know. If I need to apologize, I will.

Pink Pony Club is a great song!

And Chappel is super-gay, which probably doesn’t align with what OP’s husband thinks

Stripping, regardless of the sexual orientations, is about objectification and commoditization.

The author of the song escaped one hellhole for a different hellhole

+1 normalizing sexual display for public entertainment is not healthy and positive in my book. That's just spin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Need an outside perspective for a stupid fight I had with DH.

I was playing a song, and DH made a comment about it to basically crap on it. Something to the effect of how "you women" are so confused, that "you claim to not want to be objectified" but then "you like songs that are totally about objectifying women". It led to a disagreement - I disagreed that the song was objectifying - my interpretation was that it was about freedom to be who you wanted to be. He had a completely different take, and said it was about wanting to work as a stripper. I did not agree. He also said he was surprised my relative, who claims to be a "christian" likes the song also.

It led to a heated argument. He went on one of his rants as I call it - he says it is a logical argument. He says he only says this because he deeply sympathizes with the absolute tragedy of women's utter confusion with these toxic messages that they are bombarded with. I said, "thanks for your sympathies - but really, I'M GOOD.". It led to some other B.S. arguments where he was just really trying to prove his point, and start talking circles around me with all of these "logical arguments".

The kids were listening and apparently getting tired of hearing it. My son looked up the meaning of the song and it basically lined up with my interpretation. But DH kept digging deeper to prove me wrong. I said, maybe you should apologize for making judgments about me. He said he wasn't judging me, he was referring to ALL women. Kept rambling on. Eventually acknowledged that I simply had a different interpretation of the song. I said, instead of attacking me with your litany of words, it would just be so much simpler if you just said "I'm sorry". He says "I'm sorry you have the complete wrong idea about what I'm trying to say--You always do this to me, you completely misinterpret my intention and it's really hurtful and offensive that you think so little of me." He started getting really upset.
I said "and you always turn everything around to make yourself the victim". On and on.

So honest opinions welcome. If I was in the wrong, I want to know. If I need to apologize, I will.

Pink Pony Club is a great song!

And Chappel is super-gay, which probably doesn’t align with what OP’s husband thinks

Stripping, regardless of the sexual orientations, is about objectification and commoditization.

The author of the song escaped one hellhole for a different hellhole

+1 normalizing sexual display for public entertainment is not healthy and positive in my book. That's just spin.

I think it’s reasonable to have that opinion and unreasonable to express it randomly to your family when they are having a good time and listening to music.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Need an outside perspective for a stupid fight I had with DH.

I was playing a song, and DH made a comment about it to basically crap on it. Something to the effect of how "you women" are so confused, that "you claim to not want to be objectified" but then "you like songs that are totally about objectifying women". It led to a disagreement - I disagreed that the song was objectifying - my interpretation was that it was about freedom to be who you wanted to be. He had a completely different take, and said it was about wanting to work as a stripper. I did not agree. He also said he was surprised my relative, who claims to be a "christian" likes the song also.

It led to a heated argument. He went on one of his rants as I call it - he says it is a logical argument. He says he only says this because he deeply sympathizes with the absolute tragedy of women's utter confusion with these toxic messages that they are bombarded with. I said, "thanks for your sympathies - but really, I'M GOOD.". It led to some other B.S. arguments where he was just really trying to prove his point, and start talking circles around me with all of these "logical arguments".

The kids were listening and apparently getting tired of hearing it. My son looked up the meaning of the song and it basically lined up with my interpretation. But DH kept digging deeper to prove me wrong. I said, maybe you should apologize for making judgments about me. He said he wasn't judging me, he was referring to ALL women. Kept rambling on. Eventually acknowledged that I simply had a different interpretation of the song. I said, instead of attacking me with your litany of words, it would just be so much simpler if you just said "I'm sorry". He says "I'm sorry you have the complete wrong idea about what I'm trying to say--You always do this to me, you completely misinterpret my intention and it's really hurtful and offensive that you think so little of me." He started getting really upset.
I said "and you always turn everything around to make yourself the victim". On and on.

So honest opinions welcome. If I was in the wrong, I want to know. If I need to apologize, I will.

Pink Pony Club is a great song!

And Chappel is super-gay, which probably doesn’t align with what OP’s husband thinks

Stripping, regardless of the sexual orientations, is about objectification and commoditization.

The author of the song escaped one hellhole for a different hellhole

+1 normalizing sexual display for public entertainment is not healthy and positive in my book. That's just spin.

I think it’s reasonable to have that opinion and unreasonable to express it randomly to your family when they are having a good time and listening to music.

Is it reasonable to play a song normalizing stripping in front your kids and get offended when their other parent criticizes it?

[Anonymous]

i dont think it was about you. I think we as women have made messaging somewhat confusing and frustrating for men and created a scenario where they 'can't win'.

I saw an instagram post yesterday of british celeb myleene klass where she was wearing a dress in multiple snaps where you could clearly see her nipples and someone had commented 'was it cold in there? had to say it' and she clapped back 'actually you didn't have to say it'. on the one hand she's completely right but on the other hand she clearly deliberately posted pics where that was a pretty stand out feature. I found it contradictory and i'm a woman. Your dh is probably reacting to years of that kind of crp, not you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. In retrospect, a PP hit on a fundamental communication problem between Dh and me. He has said before that he just wants to engage in an intellectual debate with me, but instead, I take things personally, feel attacked, and just get my feelings hurt instead. I do think he probably wishes he married someone who he could verbally spar and debate with, where both parties are trying their best to "win". Anger, insults, rude comments - all fair game.

I take this with a giant grain of salt though, because the very second I disagree with him on something, HE is the one who gets very defensive. He wants me to be supportive of him 100% and takes any disagreement as an attack on him. So I think in this case, he probably wanted me to say something like, oh hmmm, yeah I never thought about that way, maybe you're right, tell me more about why you think that way?

But I was irked because here I was just enjoying a song. And in my view, not only did he crap on me for it, he also judged me for it and tried to make me feel ashamed or less than evolved for liking it. It didn't even matter what the song was about. I felt judged, and I felt I didn't want to be boxed in or told what I should and shouldn't like.

I didn't come here for validation. I came here because I knew this argument was stupid and we fell into old patterns and I'd rather not do that anymore. If I was in the wrong, I'm willing to apologize and take accountability. If there is feedback I can give him, I'd like to be able to talk about that with him, instead of do what we normally do - just pretend it didn't happen and move on, so that it can just pop up again next time.

Oh, God, men like this are exhausting. They want to debate everyone but the second someone disagrees they blow up. My xH was like this and it’s a large part of why we divorced.

No, you’re not in the wrong and I’d be having a serious come to Jesus talk with him about this behavior. Is therapy an option?

My "D"H is like this too - it's maddening. And I think some of it is that guys like this (unconsciously maybe) think they are smarter than most/all women and can't process an actual debate. I usually try to stop the discussion not because I'm getting too emotional, but because it's not healthy for our relationship to continue. Partly because I usually start to lose respect for him - not because of his opinions but because of the poor reasoning he used to get there.

But to give him some credit, he has changed his views on somethings. Often the arguing is just him playing devil's advocate, and I will hear him arguing my position when discussing the same topic with friends. But that's also annoying and exhausting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i dont think it was about you. I think we as women have made messaging somewhat confusing and frustrating for men and created a scenario where they 'can't win'.

I saw an instagram post yesterday of british celeb myleene klass where she was wearing a dress in multiple snaps where you could clearly see her nipples and someone had commented 'was it cold in there? had to say it' and she clapped back 'actually you didn't have to say it'. on the one hand she's completely right but on the other hand she clearly deliberately posted pics where that was a pretty stand out feature. I found it contradictory and i'm a woman. Your dh is probably reacting to years of that kind of crp, not you.

Yuck. She's almost 50.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i dont think it was about you. I think we as women have made messaging somewhat confusing and frustrating for men and created a scenario where they 'can't win'.

I saw an instagram post yesterday of british celeb myleene klass where she was wearing a dress in multiple snaps where you could clearly see her nipples and someone had commented 'was it cold in there? had to say it' and she clapped back 'actually you didn't have to say it'. on the one hand she's completely right but on the other hand she clearly deliberately posted pics where that was a pretty stand out feature. I found it contradictory and i'm a woman. Your dh is probably reacting to years of that kind of crp, not you.

Fair. Everyday life is getting porny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i dont think it was about you. I think we as women have made messaging somewhat confusing and frustrating for men and created a scenario where they 'can't win'.

I saw an instagram post yesterday of british celeb myleene klass where she was wearing a dress in multiple snaps where you could clearly see her nipples and someone had commented 'was it cold in there? had to say it' and she clapped back 'actually you didn't have to say it'. on the one hand she's completely right but on the other hand she clearly deliberately posted pics where that was a pretty stand out feature. I found it contradictory and i'm a woman. Your dh is probably reacting to years of that kind of crp, not you.

Women have nipples. I find it more weird to expect women to hide their nipples and pretend they don’t have them.

Those same guys wouldn’t like it if a woman said to them, “is it cold? Had to say it”.

Kindergarten rules apply. If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah women are complete hypocrites about everything. The same women at work going on and on about diversity and emotional intelligence head out running in the morning to playlists full of talk about hoes, drinking, being sluts etc. it's ...empowering or something

You can be empowered, be emotionally intelligent, have a career, and still enjoy sex. Even rough sex, degrading sex, casual sex, sex with multiple men.

The key is consent. If you didn’t consent to sexual contact with a man, he has zero right to touch you, send you pictures, or talk to you sexually. If you say no, he needs to stop.

I absolutely respect those rights, but please don't play songs about it in front of my children

Hate to break it to you, but your kids are gonna hear it anyway. And god help you when your sheltered child grows up and moves away.

I grew up in a very evangelical, Focus On The Family community where kids were sheltered and sex was seen as bad. Every single one of those kids ended up promiscuous after they left home, with many unplanned pregnancies.

Better to have open and honest conversations with your kids about sex. Sheltering never helped anybody.

Do you understand the difference between anecdotes and data?

Data shows that abstinence only education has zero impact on pregnancy and STD rates, and in some cases actually increased them.

Data also shows that children raised in Christian environments are on average less promiscuous than those who aren’t.

But you can’t comprehend that because you only can universalize your own personal experiences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i dont think it was about you. I think we as women have made messaging somewhat confusing and frustrating for men and created a scenario where they 'can't win'.

I saw an instagram post yesterday of british celeb myleene klass where she was wearing a dress in multiple snaps where you could clearly see her nipples and someone had commented 'was it cold in there? had to say it' and she clapped back 'actually you didn't have to say it'. on the one hand she's completely right but on the other hand she clearly deliberately posted pics where that was a pretty stand out feature. I found it contradictory and i'm a woman. Your dh is probably reacting to years of that kind of crp, not you.

Women have nipples. I find it more weird to expect women to hide their nipples and pretend they don’t have them.

Those same guys wouldn’t like it if a woman said to them, “is it cold? Had to say it”.

Kindergarten rules apply. If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.

Men have balls. I find it odd that men are expected to hide their balls and pretend they don’t have them.

Those same women would not like it if a man said to them “is it cold? Had to say it”.