Wanting to divorce a “recovered” spouse

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Op here- As you say- plenty of women do the “majority” of labor- are they screaming at their families constantly? Hitting their kids? Throwing things at their husbands? Breaking their golf clubs or whatever? Why would this give him a pass?

He’s always been a rager/angry/abusive regardless of his “stress” level- one job, two jobs, no job, tiny apartment, house, kids, no kids. It doesn’t really matter. I also always excused him for having a “temper” or “stress” or “working hard” or that whatever he was screaming at me about was my fault, or I would fight/yell back in an attempt to feel less weak.

But I hated my life, and I hated being his punching bag, I hated how out of control everything at home was. It left me physically and emotionally drained, and later, checked out and depressed and sleeping poorly. Which only made him angrier and created a sort of death spiral. He was only peaceful to me if I was crying or pregnant. I’ll sacrifice his “contribution” to feel peace.

Unfortunately his behavior was escalating to physical abuse to me and the kids, because that’s what happens when someone like this is left unchecked for years. His behavior was also beginning to have a visible impact on our kids, who were also learning that being disrespectful, screaming and breaking things and hitting and being a jerk is the way to handle your “stress,” particularly the older one.

At our house the kids and I call it the Raging Lunatic when he rages.

NP- Did everyone miss what OP said in bold above?
Screaming at their families constantly?
Hitting their kids? (???)
Throwing things at their husbands? (in this case wife)
Breaking their golf clubs or whatever?
I hated being his punching bag (figuratively or metaphorically?)
His behavior was escalating to physical abuse to me and the kids (escalating to? Or physically hitting you/kids?)

Op, can you clarify? Did your husband physically hit you and/or kids? How old are they? You said not yet in HS. Your decision to get out now or wait a year hinges on above.

Was that not a hypothetical?

NP

PP it seems implied in OPs response to a previous poster.
Op here- As you say- plenty of women do the “majority” of labor- are they screaming at their families constantly? Hitting their kids? Throwing things at their husbands? Breaking their golf clubs or whatever? Why would this give him a pass?

[Anonymous]

Seems ambiguous, or whatever

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Op here- As you say- plenty of women do the “majority” of labor- are they screaming at their families constantly? Hitting their kids? Throwing things at their husbands? Breaking their golf clubs or whatever? Why would this give him a pass?

He’s always been a rager/angry/abusive regardless of his “stress” level- one job, two jobs, no job, tiny apartment, house, kids, no kids. It doesn’t really matter. I also always excused him for having a “temper” or “stress” or “working hard” or that whatever he was screaming at me about was my fault, or I would fight/yell back in an attempt to feel less weak.

But I hated my life, and I hated being his punching bag, I hated how out of control everything at home was. It left me physically and emotionally drained, and later, checked out and depressed and sleeping poorly. Which only made him angrier and created a sort of death spiral. He was only peaceful to me if I was crying or pregnant. I’ll sacrifice his “contribution” to feel peace.

Unfortunately his behavior was escalating to physical abuse to me and the kids, because that’s what happens when someone like this is left unchecked for years. His behavior was also beginning to have a visible impact on our kids, who were also learning that being disrespectful, screaming and breaking things and hitting and being a jerk is the way to handle your “stress,” particularly the older one.

At our house the kids and I call it the Raging Lunatic when he rages.

NP- Did everyone miss what OP said in bold above?
Screaming at their families constantly?
Hitting their kids? (???)
Throwing things at their husbands? (in this case wife)
Breaking their golf clubs or whatever?
I hated being his punching bag (figuratively or metaphorically?)
His behavior was escalating to physical abuse to me and the kids (escalating to? Or physically hitting you/kids?)

Op, can you clarify? Did your husband physically hit you and/or kids? How old are they? You said not yet in HS. Your decision to get out now or wait a year hinges on above.

OP- yes, he has in fact smacked me, like on the arm or something, a couple of times, or shoved me. He has done other physically abusive things and other things he says are an “accident” over the course of 15 years. I felt really ashamed about this behavior and never told anyone until recently, and I would also hit him back, thinking that was taking my agency back. But it was all really damaging. It wasn’t a hypothetical but I don’t want to get into how bad his behavior was- it was BAD and inexcusable and not due to “stress.” Yelling when you have a work deadline is “stress.”

What he did has nothing to do with stress. He has also smacked the kids when he was frustrated with them. And it was more than physical abuse- the physical stuff was so sporadic, but the emotional and verbal abuse was more consistent and worse for all of us. The physical abuse never hurt that much but was incredibly demeaning. And confusing. Every single time he would beg for forgiveness and promise to never do it again, and then he would do it again months or even years later. Because I was so used to his crappy behavior it was like a frog in a boiling pot of water. He also thought it wasn’t a big deal because he never hit me that “hard.”

He is desperate to shove everything under the rug and “start over” yet again. Our marriage counselor told him this wasn’t a “domestic violence” situation and he happily latched onto that. Another counselor also told me he needs anger management, not intervention as an abuser. He is desperate to hang onto his self-image.

All of this massaging of his ego and parsing out whether he is an “abuser” or just a “good person who needs to learn to process his anger” is exhausting for me. I am increasingly not interested and more or less just trying to take care of myself. I like that he is finally acting like a normal person, but it really does feel like too little too late.

[Anonymous]

OP, having grown up in a home like this, then unconsciously repeated the pattern, listen to your gut but know that if he gets 50% and you are not there to buffer for the kids it may be worse for them. A narc is not going to let you move away or give up his "possessions" unless it is by HIS choice. There is no great outcome for the kids. There is no getting them into a safe environment 100% of the time and from that safety beginning to heal. The rage will come back when he gets tired of playing at "reformed." The kids anger will likely be directed at you as the "safe" parent when they get older no matter what. But if you bail for your "happiness" creating greater risk to their safety (and family courts do not do a great job protecting kids) you will have to live with that.

[Anonymous]

Op, I guess one way to look at it ~ you helped to get him to a better place, before you left. That was a good thing. You will need to not be concerned about what you perceive as other's opinions of your divorce. All people who divorce spend too much useless energy on trying to "frame" their decisions for others. It just makes them look worse, like they are making-up excuses and purposely trying to make the spouse look bad. So, don't reveal much. Those who are close to you, to him - they know or suspect how hard it's been.

[Anonymous]

Gray divorce.

Smile and nod

Hate him inside, don’t tell anyone.

Yellow rock him.

Rebuild your own life.

Mentally write him off as the abusive loser he is.

Gtfo one week after you drop the youngest at college. Tell them exactly why.

[Anonymous]

Go on a 3 month vacation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, having grown up in a home like this, then unconsciously repeated the pattern, listen to your gut but know that if he gets 50% and you are not there to buffer for the kids it may be worse for them. A narc is not going to let you move away or give up his "possessions" unless it is by HIS choice. There is no great outcome for the kids. There is no getting them into a safe environment 100% of the time and from that safety beginning to heal. The rage will come back when he gets tired of playing at "reformed." The kids anger will likely be directed at you as the "safe" parent when they get older no matter what. But if you bail for your "happiness" creating greater risk to their safety (and family courts do not do a great job protecting kids) you will have to live with that.

OP here- I genuinely do not think that he is a narcissist although I am not a psychologist and can't diagnose him either way. Based on how he has behaved for the last couple of months I really do think there has been a major behavioral change, which I see as a positive particularly for the kids. The shame of his parents, our closest friends, and our pastor all sort of asking him WTF was wrong with him was a big wakeup call.

But I feel he still doesn't "get" it. He doesn't get how damaging this was to our marriage. He truly doesn't understand how I wouldn't want to be with him since he is "good" now. He really does want a cookie or a trophy for being good for a few months, and sees any coldness or frustration from me as an insult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce.

Smile and nod

Hate him inside, don’t tell anyone.

Yellow rock him.

Rebuild your own life.

Mentally write him off as the abusive loser he is.

Gtfo one week after you drop the youngest at college. Tell them exactly why.

This was my plan for a long time, but I have 9 more years and it is absolutely untenable for me to live like that. Either I want to live with him happily (increasingly unlikely) or not live with him at all. I gritted my teeth and tolerated a lot for many years and I just don't think I can anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, having grown up in a home like this, then unconsciously repeated the pattern, listen to your gut but know that if he gets 50% and you are not there to buffer for the kids it may be worse for them. A narc is not going to let you move away or give up his "possessions" unless it is by HIS choice. There is no great outcome for the kids. There is no getting them into a safe environment 100% of the time and from that safety beginning to heal. The rage will come back when he gets tired of playing at "reformed." The kids anger will likely be directed at you as the "safe" parent when they get older no matter what. But if you bail for your "happiness" creating greater risk to their safety (and family courts do not do a great job protecting kids) you will have to live with that.

OP here- I genuinely do not think that he is a narcissist although I am not a psychologist and can't diagnose him either way. Based on how he has behaved for the last couple of months I really do think there has been a major behavioral change, which I see as a positive particularly for the kids. The shame of his parents, our closest friends, and our pastor all sort of asking him WTF was wrong with him was a big wakeup call.

But I feel he still doesn't "get" it. He doesn't get how damaging this was to our marriage. He truly doesn't understand how I wouldn't want to be with him since he is "good" now. He really does want a cookie or a trophy for being good for a few months, and sees any coldness or frustration from me as an insult.

I get it, OP. I'm the PP you are responding to. Whatever label you want to apply, he has changed due to his "image" being sullied and it is unlikely to last. He lacks empathy. You may get yourself out but your kids will be alone with a rager 50% of the time. As hard as the situation is for you as an adult, they will only have child coping skills. They will have feelings about that choice of yours. I'm not sure that you are getting that.

Consider getting the kids into something like Alateen as they get older. When they are adults they may benefit from Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families. Lots of people there struggling to not become the abuser, continue as a victim and to process feelings about both parents and the choices they made. Your kids don't have any good choices on the table, OP, but some may be less bad. Best case is if non-abusive parent has enough $ and abuser moves on and loses interest, stars almost never align that way.

I think you could benefit from processing trauma with a trauma informed therapist. When it comes to the kids think in terms of trying to mitigate the harm in ways that you can control. Your framing of all of this as a romantic relationship, which is has not been for years, leaves out what you can do to buffer their well being. Or leave them to the rage. That choice is yours.

And men like your ex LOVE family court drama, playing victim and playing experts as they did their therapists. You are right, if he can control himself now, he could all along. He chose not to. Those days are likely to come again. He enjoyed misusing power and control over those closest to him. Some people are like that. Being dragged to family court constantly can become a new reality and it is harmful to kids. As long as their is still $$$, and financial forms are filed, the lawyers and experts are happy to bleed you both dry. He may not be shoving you at that stage but he might get off on putting your job at risk with frequent court summons, for example. Leopards don't change their spots, you are right about that. He is never going to have empathy for how he harmed you, he is not wired that way, nor would his ego allow it. So let that go and focus on the things that YOU have control over putting the well being of young KIDS first.

Try framing it as survival, for you and the kids - physically, mentally and financially. The romance framework serves no real purpose. That is not the life you have right now. The yellow rock framing poster had some really good advice.

[Anonymous]

Whatever feelings you have about the abuse and 180, how are your kids feeling? Surely they also feel like they are waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Are they going to be able to give him enough "cookies" that he values to manage his moods if alone with him for 1/2 of their childhood? Or will the rage he feels at you sullying his rep find new targets?

Mistreating kids as a way to stick it to mom is a classic tactic and it sounds like he has crossed a lot of boundaries with ALL of you. You mentioned how long it will be until they finish HS, imagine what all that time will be like for them, not only shuttling back and forth and having to spend holidays with strangers, etc. but think how they will feel when you nope out and they are stuck there alone hundreds of days a year.

Your post mentions abuse of the kids but then focuses almost exclusively on your own feelings.

What was your own childhood like, OP? Was dad angry or mom non-protective? If you could find a DV support group it might be really helpful to you to hear the thought patterns of others in a similar situation. The status quo is not going to hold and it's best to have a plan. That is separate from addressing your own trauma, your post reads a bit like the dissociation of one is impacting the other. While you are pondering the emotional impact on you, where is the space to think your kids may feel the same way and then will have to cope with feeling abandoned on top of the abuse? No buffer and think how mad he will be then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, having grown up in a home like this, then unconsciously repeated the pattern, listen to your gut but know that if he gets 50% and you are not there to buffer for the kids it may be worse for them. A narc is not going to let you move away or give up his "possessions" unless it is by HIS choice. There is no great outcome for the kids. There is no getting them into a safe environment 100% of the time and from that safety beginning to heal. The rage will come back when he gets tired of playing at "reformed." The kids anger will likely be directed at you as the "safe" parent when they get older no matter what. But if you bail for your "happiness" creating greater risk to their safety (and family courts do not do a great job protecting kids) you will have to live with that.

OP here- I genuinely do not think that he is a narcissist although I am not a psychologist and can't diagnose him either way. Based on how he has behaved for the last couple of months I really do think there has been a major behavioral change, which I see as a positive particularly for the kids. The shame of his parents, our closest friends, and our pastor all sort of asking him WTF was wrong with him was a big wakeup call.

But I feel he still doesn't "get" it. He doesn't get how damaging this was to our marriage. He truly doesn't understand how I wouldn't want to be with him since he is "good" now. He really does want a cookie or a trophy for being good for a few months, and sees any coldness or frustration from me as an insult.

It’s a lot better than the cheaters who try to get you to just accept the situation. Why go to therapy if you didn’t want to actually fix things? Sounds like he’s doing the best he can and there are a lot of good things he’s done his life. I don’t actually hear you looking for solutions. Just venting for validation. People like this can also be exhausting. To his external anger you seem to have the same thing internalized. People used to spank their kids not a generation earlier. People are going to war right now killing each other. The idea that a man like him is never going to be physical even to throw a book at the wall when he’s angry may be a level of calm that he’s not able to achieve for the rest of his life which seems to be your ultimatum. You sound like you hate him and it must be miserable for him. I would leave and let him find someone that can actually love him and doesn’t mind a book against the wall once a year. You’ve given up and want excuses why you shouldn’t have to do any work on yourself or the relationship. The relationship is bound to fail without your part trying to heal it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DH had reached a point where his anger and rage were too much, and had escalated into physical aggression (I won’t go as far as saying domestic violence per our counselor but many people would consider what he did to be a dealbreaker).

I finally had enough and told people including our families and clergy that I was living with Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde, and reluctantly, he got into counseling, both individual and marriage counseling with me. He has committed to it. The counselors who have worked with us both believe he is on the right track. He has also stopped almost all of the behaviors that upset me for so long and is controlling himself completely and being the husband I have always wanted him to be. It’s only been a couple of months but I feel like there has been a real sea change, and it may be genuine. Our home environment is also so much more peaceful and pleasant for our kids, and with him controlling himself it is so much easier for me to be a better parent and less reactive too.

So why do I want to leave him more than anything? I have time benchmarks that I talked about with my counselor, for example I checked in with myself at the end of the school year and felt I could stay, I want to see how the summer goes, etc. I am trying to reconnect with him and do things with him.

He is an ultra responsible parent and partner: he works two jobs, makes decent money, does a majority of the housework, and is very involved with our kids. But for years he just treated me abysmally and I just did nothing about it for so long, feeling like I couldn’t leave. And now I am not seeing any sort of future with him. I love him, but in a detached sort of way, like a relative that I just don’t like very much.

It’s like the entire marriage was an uphill climb for me anyway. I’m tired, and I don’t know when my feelings will change or if they will change. I loved this man for so long, but I am spent and feel like I am in a totally different place now: I would like to find a partner that I don’t have this ugly history with. I feel calm, but that I do not want to stay married to this man. It was like the thought never realistically occurred to me, but once it did, it’s a siren song that I can’t get out of my head.

I don’t know if I am asking a question or venting. Have you been here? Do I need to give it more time? I don’t want 50/50 custody of my kids, I don’t want to lose half my finances (although I’d totally survive financially). I want to do the right thing for everyone but it feels like staying is not the right thing for me.

I emotionally detached a long time ago. I don't think my husband realized or noticed, but he'll express frustration at times that "I don't even like him." It's true. It's just not worth even arguing about anymore. We are going to have a very serious disagreement about long-term retirement plans and I plan to be estranged but still married. I literally have zero interest in another relationship and would prefer to strengthen my female friendships. I have been unhappy for a really long time and had some of my own issues over the years - I'm not perfect by any means.

Not gonna lie that it's hard to accept your "fate," so to speak, but finally doing it allowed me to let go of so much emotional investment in a relationship dumpster fire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH had reached a point where his anger and rage were too much, and had escalated into physical aggression (I won’t go as far as saying domestic violence per our counselor but many people would consider what he did to be a dealbreaker).

I finally had enough and told people including our families and clergy that I was living with Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde, and reluctantly, he got into counseling, both individual and marriage counseling with me. He has committed to it. The counselors who have worked with us both believe he is on the right track. He has also stopped almost all of the behaviors that upset me for so long and is controlling himself completely and being the husband I have always wanted him to be. It’s only been a couple of months but I feel like there has been a real sea change, and it may be genuine. Our home environment is also so much more peaceful and pleasant for our kids, and with him controlling himself it is so much easier for me to be a better parent and less reactive too.

So why do I want to leave him more than anything? I have time benchmarks that I talked about with my counselor, for example I checked in with myself at the end of the school year and felt I could stay, I want to see how the summer goes, etc. I am trying to reconnect with him and do things with him.

He is an ultra responsible parent and partner: he works two jobs, makes decent money, does a majority of the housework, and is very involved with our kids. But for years he just treated me abysmally and I just did nothing about it for so long, feeling like I couldn’t leave. And now I am not seeing any sort of future with him. I love him, but in a detached sort of way, like a relative that I just don’t like very much.

It’s like the entire marriage was an uphill climb for me anyway. I’m tired, and I don’t know when my feelings will change or if they will change. I loved this man for so long, but I am spent and feel like I am in a totally different place now: I would like to find a partner that I don’t have this ugly history with. I feel calm, but that I do not want to stay married to this man. It was like the thought never realistically occurred to me, but once it did, it’s a siren song that I can’t get out of my head.

I don’t know if I am asking a question or venting. Have you been here? Do I need to give it more time? I don’t want 50/50 custody of my kids, I don’t want to lose half my finances (although I’d totally survive financially). I want to do the right thing for everyone but it feels like staying is not the right thing for me.

OP are you me? My story is almost exactly aligned with yours, save for the fact that I married my husband because I fell in love with the perceived stability I thought he and his family would bring to my life because my mom had just died. My husband too is working on all of his anger issues but I feel like it is too little too late. Verbal and emotional abuse for 20 years and it just feels like I have so much resentment and sadness. I am now in a place of extreme calm but complete removal and distance in terms of emotional and physical intimacy. I’m kind of just enjoying the space and not making decisions right now. I am right there with you.

Yes, this is me, I am filled with resentment and sadness from 15 years of this. What are we going to do, pp? How long can we live like this? Do we leave now?

I don't know, OP. I've got 4 years until my youngest leaves the nest for college. My older one will be a junior in high school, and I feel like disrupting his high school life with a divorce would side track things like SAT prep, etc. I can't really imagine a life with my husband, I simply don't like being around him anymore, even though he is 'getting better.' I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm in therapy, which is helping TREMENDOUSLY. I was raised in an abusive household, and I'm learning about shifting my mindset to realize that I AM strong enough to do it on my own. BUT, this man is really my family, and I still am afraid of not having anyone who would be there in the middle of the night. (perhaps another cognitive distortion of mine, bc I have a very strong circle of friends.) I hear you so loudly, OP. I think the best advice I can give is to trust yourself. Trust your body and your mind. Take your time. AND, meet with a lawyer. I did this too, and it was very empowering.

OP here. Ok pp since you are several years ahead of me in child-rearing you can answer some of my most pressing questions, which are how all of this affects the kids. This is really what worries me the most.

Did you feel a negative impact in the kids behavior? How do they handle conflict? Do they follow the model their father has shown them or do they know it's wrong? What could you do to mitigate the impact of DH's behavior? Did you ever put the kids in therapy?

How long has your DH been "working" on it? Is he in therapy? Are you in couples therapy? Has his behavior changed in the long term?

As a pp above suggests, I am giving it a little less than a year to see where I am emotionally. I am taking care of myself- ramping up my career, starting new hobbies. I would like to see the results of therapy for him, marriage counseling, and therapy for me (and possibly the kids). I cannot imagine wanting to be married to this man. I just can't. I haven't wanted to be married to him in a long, long time. I am in my late 30s, my kids are not yet in high school, and I think the sooner the better if they are going to adapt ot 50/50 custody. I would also like to find a new partner, eventually, but not for a long time.

OP - I just posted above about my emotional detachment. I'm 51 and I have two kids - one in high school and one in middle school. You sound like me 6-8 years ago (but I was early 40's). I'd divorce now and not look back. 15-20 more years of this is going to grind you into dust.

[Anonymous]

In practice, you may get more than 50-50
He may not be able to handle the kids and he’ll rely on you

It’s not worth fighting for legally. Backlash is common. But practically, I can tell you things can settle more that 5o percent of the time in your favor