I am so sick of talking about sexuality, gender, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

OP here. Yes -- thank you, PP. You summed up well what I feel I am often witnessing.

There was talk about this among my DD's group in 6th and 7th grade. My DD would tell me how annoying she found it all. In her view, it was kids just trying to be "different" or "interesting." But by 8-9 grade, it mostly seems to be over.

Nobody is talking about sex in 9th grade. Lol! You wish!

What are you talking about? Nobody said kids stopped talking about sex in 9th grade. The thread is about MS kids' obsession with where they fit in on the gender spectrum. That discussion, IME, wanes by 8th or 9th grade. Why would you respond to a thread you haven't read or is it that you just don't understand?

The PP said kids stop talking about sex is over at 8-9 th grade. See bolded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

I didn’t kiss anyone til I was 16 and never once played spin the bottle or was pressured to go with anyone. I was the quiet, studious girl who boys paid no attention to. (But I secretly had crushes on boys.) In today’s world, based on my observations among my DD’s friends, I’m pretty sure I would feel the obligation to identify as asexual, pansexual or lesbian, to keep my options open and ensure that I wasn’t acting in any sort of -phobic way. Don’t even try to tell me this is how it’s always been.

But it's all harmless! How can anyone be harmed by a label?

/s

Your talking to somebody tgat did not know kids were talking about kissing until she was 16.

[Anonymous]

MS kids have always talked about this stuff in one form or another, it's just taking this particular form now based on what is happening culturally. I can see it being annoying at times, but there is now way it is one tenth as toxic and oppressive as the MS culture I was in, where there was a ton of pressure on girls to be sexually active even from an incredibly young age (often before they even had periods), and the pressure on boys was to project this gross toxic masculinity that was focused on being wanted by girls and not on their own actual feelings or attractions. It was horrible. The 90s were awful in this regard.

I do think the current pressure in some circles to explore gender non-conformity or non-heterosexuality can be a bit much at times. There are certainly plenty of kids who are playing with these identities and sexualities at a young age who will ultimately just be cis and heterosexual. But since there is WAY less pressure on kids to actual have sex, and since the gender expressions that people are being pushed towards are much less harmful than the ones I was pushed towards, I view the whole thing as a net positive. I'd rather see a 12 yr old girl feel pressure to experiment with being non-binary as expressed in her clothes, than see her feel pressured to heavily sexualize herself via hyper-feminine, porn-influenced presentations, AND to feel pressure to offer her up for sexual experimentation with male peers. There's just no comparison for me -- this is better.

Obviously the ideal would be if kids this age were not pressured to do or be anything, if they could just be allowed to come to sexuality and gender expression in their own time without this level of pressure and scrutiny. Certainly I try to cultivate that environment in my own house for my own kids. But if they are going to feel pressure, I'd rather have it be this occasionally annoying but otherwise pretty reasonable and age appropriate pressure to experiment with sexuality and gender, without actually having sex.

I just remember being a tween and having there be absolutely no room for me to just figure this stuff out myself. I think there is at least a little more space now. That's good!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

I didn’t kiss anyone til I was 16 and never once played spin the bottle or was pressured to go with anyone. I was the quiet, studious girl who boys paid no attention to. (But I secretly had crushes on boys.) In today’s world, based on my observations among my DD’s friends, I’m pretty sure I would feel the obligation to identify as asexual, pansexual or lesbian, to keep my options open and ensure that I wasn’t acting in any sort of -phobic way. Don’t even try to tell me this is how it’s always been.

No because you would self segregate like you did when you were a teen. If you did not have 1 friend ask you what boy you liked when you were 11-12 you clearly were choosing friends that were not the norm.

Ok. Let me try this again. In my day, yes, the heteronormative question was “what boy do you like?” Today, the question is more like “what is your orientation?” Which is completely fine, except that in some circles, heterosexual is clearly the wrong answer. I have seen text chains where middle schoolers attempt to bait kids into saying something that could be perceived as homophobic or transphobic, so that they can publicly shame them. These are kids grappling with some complex ideas, with the whole internet in their hands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is exhausting. I just had a FTM trans kid telling me to change the way I talked about Roe and "women" yesterday to say something like "people who can become pregnant." I really can't even deal with talking about women's rights being considered transphobic. Like, enough.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

I didn’t kiss anyone til I was 16 and never once played spin the bottle or was pressured to go with anyone. I was the quiet, studious girl who boys paid no attention to. (But I secretly had crushes on boys.) In today’s world, based on my observations among my DD’s friends, I’m pretty sure I would feel the obligation to identify as asexual, pansexual or lesbian, to keep my options open and ensure that I wasn’t acting in any sort of -phobic way. Don’t even try to tell me this is how it’s always been.

No because you would self segregate like you did when you were a teen. If you did not have 1 friend ask you what boy you liked when you were 11-12 you clearly were choosing friends that were not the norm.

Ok. Let me try this again. In my day, yes, the heteronormative question was “what boy do you like?” Today, the question is more like “what is your orientation?” Which is completely fine, except that in some circles, heterosexual is clearly the wrong answer. I have seen text chains where middle schoolers attempt to bait kids into saying something that could be perceived as homophobic or transphobic, so that they can publicly shame them. These are kids grappling with some complex ideas, with the whole internet in their hands.

Ok. Let me try this again. It is no different than when you were in middle school. Kids talked about sex, gender and sexuality. There was pressure to act more boy, or girly, or to like people you did not like because you were gay or not ready for sex or because you were asexual. Middle schoolers are shitty, perhaps in your day they baited people to say they were interested in the cutest popular boy or the black kid so they could publicly shame them.

You just don’t see these existed because you were socialized too think heteronormative bullying is okay.

All bullying is bad. It’s not new.

Talking about sex/gender is not bad. Bullying is bad. You can’t separate the 2 in your head when it comes to LGBT issues but you can when it’s a cis gender issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is exhausting. I just had a FTM trans kid telling me to change the way I talked about Roe and "women" yesterday to say something like "people who can become pregnant." I really can't even deal with talking about women's rights being considered transphobic. Like, enough.

It’s exhausting to say women and other people who can become pregnant ?

It’s like how exhausting it was to say congressperson instead of congressman, mail carrier instead of mail man, trash truck driver instead of trash man, spokes person instead of spokesman,

Sit down and rest this is all too much.

[Anonymous]

It makes me smile a little to see OP so tired of discussing tween/teen gender and sexuality … that they started (yet another) thread to talk about tween/teen gender & sexuality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

OP here. Yes -- thank you, PP. You summed up well what I feel I am often witnessing.

There was talk about this among my DD's group in 6th and 7th grade. My DD would tell me how annoying she found it all. In her view, it was kids just trying to be "different" or "interesting." But by 8-9 grade, it mostly seems to be over.

Nobody is talking about sex in 9th grade. Lol! You wish!

What are you talking about? Nobody said kids stopped talking about sex in 9th grade. The thread is about MS kids' obsession with where they fit in on the gender spectrum. That discussion, IME, wanes by 8th or 9th grade. Why would you respond to a thread you haven't read or is it that you just don't understand?

The PP said kids stop talking about sex is over at 8-9 th grade. See bolded.

First of all, you bolded nothing. Second of all, this is what the PP said: "There was talk about this among my DD's group in 6th and 7th grade. My DD would tell me how annoying she found it all. In her view, it was kids just trying to be "different" or "interesting." But by 8-9 grade, it mostly seems to be over." The "it" that mostly seems to be over by 8-9 grade is MS kids' obsession with talking about where they and others fall on the gender spectrum. This thread has nothing to do with sex. You have very poor reading comprehension skills, just FYI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It makes me smile a little to see OP so tired of discussing tween/teen gender and sexuality … that they started (yet another) thread to talk about tween/teen gender & sexuality.

OP here. Hah. Yep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

I didn’t kiss anyone til I was 16 and never once played spin the bottle or was pressured to go with anyone. I was the quiet, studious girl who boys paid no attention to. (But I secretly had crushes on boys.) In today’s world, based on my observations among my DD’s friends, I’m pretty sure I would feel the obligation to identify as asexual, pansexual or lesbian, to keep my options open and ensure that I wasn’t acting in any sort of -phobic way. Don’t even try to tell me this is how it’s always been.

No because you would self segregate like you did when you were a teen. If you did not have 1 friend ask you what boy you liked when you were 11-12 you clearly were choosing friends that were not the norm.

Ok. Let me try this again. In my day, yes, the heteronormative question was “what boy do you like?” Today, the question is more like “what is your orientation?” Which is completely fine, except that in some circles, heterosexual is clearly the wrong answer. I have seen text chains where middle schoolers attempt to bait kids into saying something that could be perceived as homophobic or transphobic, so that they can publicly shame them. These are kids grappling with some complex ideas, with the whole internet in their hands.

Ok. Let me try this again. It is no different than when you were in middle school. Kids talked about sex, gender and sexuality. There was pressure to act more boy, or girly, or to like people you did not like because you were gay or not ready for sex or because you were asexual. Middle schoolers are shitty, perhaps in your day they baited people to say they were interested in the cutest popular boy or the black kid so they could publicly shame them.

You just don’t see these existed because you were socialized too think heteronormative bullying is okay.

All bullying is bad. It’s not new.

Talking about sex/gender is not bad. Bullying is bad. You can’t separate the 2 in your head when it comes to LGBT issues but you can when it’s a cis gender issue.

Ok, fair enough. I don’t disagree with you and that’s lots for me to think about. I think one difference, though, is that the middle schoolers doing the types of shitty, baiting things you describe likely knew they were being shitty, at least deep down. The ones I described honestly think they are warriors for justice, doing good in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It makes me smile a little to see OP so tired of discussing tween/teen gender and sexuality … that they started (yet another) thread to talk about tween/teen gender & sexuality.

It's a grass roots build up to the backlash on all this gender stuff. It will be funny when Generation LGBTQabcde,etcetc has to parents the generation this f#ckery produces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

I didn’t kiss anyone til I was 16 and never once played spin the bottle or was pressured to go with anyone. I was the quiet, studious girl who boys paid no attention to. (But I secretly had crushes on boys.) In today’s world, based on my observations among my DD’s friends, I’m pretty sure I would feel the obligation to identify as asexual, pansexual or lesbian, to keep my options open and ensure that I wasn’t acting in any sort of -phobic way. Don’t even try to tell me this is how it’s always been.

No because you would self segregate like you did when you were a teen. If you did not have 1 friend ask you what boy you liked when you were 11-12 you clearly were choosing friends that were not the norm.

Ok. Let me try this again. In my day, yes, the heteronormative question was “what boy do you like?” Today, the question is more like “what is your orientation?” Which is completely fine, except that in some circles, heterosexual is clearly the wrong answer. I have seen text chains where middle schoolers attempt to bait kids into saying something that could be perceived as homophobic or transphobic, so that they can publicly shame them. These are kids grappling with some complex ideas, with the whole internet in their hands.

Ok. Let me try this again. It is no different than when you were in middle school. Kids talked about sex, gender and sexuality. There was pressure to act more boy, or girly, or to like people you did not like because you were gay or not ready for sex or because you were asexual. Middle schoolers are shitty, perhaps in your day they baited people to say they were interested in the cutest popular boy or the black kid so they could publicly shame them.

You just don’t see these existed because you were socialized too think heteronormative bullying is okay.

All bullying is bad. It’s not new.

Talking about sex/gender is not bad. Bullying is bad. You can’t separate the 2 in your head when it comes to LGBT issues but you can when it’s a cis gender issue.

This 100%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is exhausting. I just had a FTM trans kid telling me to change the way I talked about Roe and "women" yesterday to say something like "people who can become pregnant." I really can't even deal with talking about women's rights being considered transphobic. Like, enough.

+100

The simple fact is that our rights as "humans with uteruses" (aka, women) to control our own bodies are now limited. Republicans and the religious right won't recognize that type of language so we need to simplify and unite. I fear that it just dilutes the issue to keep piling yet more issues on top of the other. But the more they can get us to fight amongst ourselves, the more they can laugh and feel pride in what they've done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is a rising 7th grader and luckily not quite there yet. He does inundate me with all the videogame and YouTube talk though!
He seems to think it’s stupid to have so many genders - he was talking about the latest Wings of Fire book and how “they now have pronouns, oh no!” I just tell him to be very careful when discussing it with friends for fear to be labeled a bigot or whatnot. But I secretly agree with him lol

To add: I actually went so far as to tell him that it’s a fad for 99% of people talking about it. If he is the 1% who is serious about it he should come to me and I will support him. But if he just wants to fit in - fine but I won’t be going out of my way to support him, just not disparage. And he shouldn’t dismiss other people who think it’s serious for them even if he thinks it’s not. And he shouldn’t question others, except at home with me we can roll eyes together
He knows society is not too tolerant to all the homophobic and transphobic stuff, at least not where we live.

Do you think that society should tolerate homophobia and transphobia, when it literally leads to violence, murder, bullying and keeping people from getting jobs and housing, etc.? Serious question. I genuinely want to know your answer.

I am not sure I understand your question? There should be no “phobias” ideally. And definitely no violence. What I meant was - he shouldn’t say things that can be interpreted as phobic, such as “you are just falling for the fad”, even though it may be true. He should NOT say it, period.

Thank you for clarifying. I did not mean to put you on the spot, I genuinely could not tell if you wanted homophobia and transphobia to be "tolerated," even though they cause people to be directly harmed.

No, I am just against labeling any thought dissenting from “it’s so cool to talk about genders and pronouns every time, everywhere” as trans- or whatever phobia.

Shouldn't an individual who wants their name and pronouns to be used and respected be free to say so anytime, anywhere? Where and when is it "not OK" for them to do so? Should they not feel welcome and safe and respected in church, in school, in your neighborhood--where/when is it not OK? Genuine question.

They are not safe from eye rolls! Genuine answer.