I am so sick of talking about sexuality, gender, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My son is a rising 7th grader and luckily not quite there yet. He does inundate me with all the videogame and YouTube talk though!
He seems to think it’s stupid to have so many genders - he was talking about the latest Wings of Fire book and how “they now have pronouns, oh no!” I just tell him to be very careful when discussing it with friends for fear to be labeled a bigot or whatnot. But I secretly agree with him lol

To add: I actually went so far as to tell him that it’s a fad for 99% of people talking about it. If he is the 1% who is serious about it he should come to me and I will support him. But if he just wants to fit in - fine but I won’t be going out of my way to support him, just not disparage. And he shouldn’t dismiss other people who think it’s serious for them even if he thinks it’s not. And he shouldn’t question others, except at home with me we can roll eyes together
He knows society is not too tolerant to all the homophobic and transphobic stuff, at least not where we live.

Do you think that society should tolerate homophobia and transphobia, when it literally leads to violence, murder, bullying and keeping people from getting jobs and housing, etc.? Serious question. I genuinely want to know your answer.

I am not sure I understand your question? There should be no “phobias” ideally. And definitely no violence. What I meant was - he shouldn’t say things that can be interpreted as phobic, such as “you are just falling for the fad”, even though it may be true. He should NOT say it, period.

Thank you for clarifying. I did not mean to put you on the spot, I genuinely could not tell if you wanted homophobia and transphobia to be "tolerated," even though they cause people to be directly harmed.

No, I am just against labeling any thought dissenting from “it’s so cool to talk about genders and pronouns every time, everywhere” as trans- or whatever phobia.

Shouldn't an individual who wants their name and pronouns to be used and respected be free to say so anytime, anywhere? Where and when is it "not OK" for them to do so? Should they not feel welcome and safe and respected in church, in school, in your neighborhood--where/when is it not OK? Genuine question.

nobody is respected everywhere. nobody feels safe and welcome everywhere. but you already know this.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is exhausting. I just had a FTM trans kid telling me to change the way I talked about Roe and "women" yesterday to say something like "people who can become pregnant." I really can't even deal with talking about women's rights being considered transphobic. Like, enough.

It’s exhausting to say women and other people who can become pregnant ?

It’s like how exhausting it was to say congressperson instead of congressman, mail carrier instead of mail man, trash truck driver instead of trash man, spokes person instead of spokesman,

Sit down and rest this is all too much.

Oh, for goodness sake. This is why Democrats are going to lose elections this November. Because they aren't allowed to talk about abortion as a women's rights issue. People care about inflation, global warming, gun control, access to health care... when Democrats start fixating on changing signs by restaurant restrooms, they lose voters. Not because the majority of voters are against changing the signs, but because the majority of voters simply do not care about those things.

That’s what they said to feminazis for wanting to be called congressperson, mail delivery person, spokes person, … it’s the same old boring song. Boo boo!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

Not PP you are replying to but I have a conforming kid and it’s just too much talk all around on the topic that doesn’t quite concern him. I would prefer there was talk about peer Pressure etc than focus on genders

The problem is not discussing gender, the problem is your child needs to learn not to confirm to … gender, sex, drinking, drugs, racism, vandalism, bullying, etc.

But your only worried about kids talking about their gender?

Believe me the cis kids are talking about sex … actually having sex! But okay clutch your pearls over “gender talk”.

I am not sure what you are trying to say.
I think kids need to learn how to be ok with not conforming. But this skill shouldn’t be so heavily focused on gender issues

So it can be focused on sex and drugs?

Among other things, yes. Everything in moderation.

[Anonymous]

mail delivery person is still stupid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

Not PP you are replying to but I have a conforming kid and it’s just too much talk all around on the topic that doesn’t quite concern him. I would prefer there was talk about peer Pressure etc than focus on genders

The problem is not discussing gender, the problem is your child needs to learn not to confirm to … gender, sex, drinking, drugs, racism, vandalism, bullying, etc.

But your only worried about kids talking about their gender?

Believe me the cis kids are talking about sex … actually having sex! But okay clutch your pearls over “gender talk”.

I am not sure what you are trying to say.
I think kids need to learn how to be ok with not conforming. But this skill shouldn’t be so heavily focused on gender issues

NP. How can we teach kids that they don't need to conform? I mean, I can say it till I'm blue in the face but to actually teach that skill... I have no idea how.

I am trying to do it by example plus acknowledging that it is indeed hard to not conform, that the pressure is real, and that yes I have been there too. I also tell stories, some of them not entirely factual but they are supposed to illustrate the point.
I have no idea how successful I am.
My parents were quite non conforming in many ways and I am a much more traditional person, but the older I get the more I value the message they sent me - it’s ok to not be like others. I had to figure out how different I wanted to be but the general message still stands

Right now in beltway schools, it’s “confirming” to say you’re confused about your gender and orientation.

It’s non confirming to not discuss this a ton and focus on your studies, sports (oops, sports are bad around here in some circles!), outside interests.

Yes I agree, that’s why I am fairly open with my kid about my attitude though it’s not popular

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is a rising 7th grader and luckily not quite there yet. He does inundate me with all the videogame and YouTube talk though!
He seems to think it’s stupid to have so many genders - he was talking about the latest Wings of Fire book and how “they now have pronouns, oh no!” I just tell him to be very careful when discussing it with friends for fear to be labeled a bigot or whatnot. But I secretly agree with him lol

To add: I actually went so far as to tell him that it’s a fad for 99% of people talking about it. If he is the 1% who is serious about it he should come to me and I will support him. But if he just wants to fit in - fine but I won’t be going out of my way to support him, just not disparage. And he shouldn’t dismiss other people who think it’s serious for them even if he thinks it’s not. And he shouldn’t question others, except at home with me we can roll eyes together
He knows society is not too tolerant to all the homophobic and transphobic stuff, at least not where we live.

Do you think that society should tolerate homophobia and transphobia, when it literally leads to violence, murder, bullying and keeping people from getting jobs and housing, etc.? Serious question. I genuinely want to know your answer.

I am not sure I understand your question? There should be no “phobias” ideally. And definitely no violence. What I meant was - he shouldn’t say things that can be interpreted as phobic, such as “you are just falling for the fad”, even though it may be true. He should NOT say it, period.

Thank you for clarifying. I did not mean to put you on the spot, I genuinely could not tell if you wanted homophobia and transphobia to be "tolerated," even though they cause people to be directly harmed.

No, I am just against labeling any thought dissenting from “it’s so cool to talk about genders and pronouns every time, everywhere” as trans- or whatever phobia.

Shouldn't an individual who wants their name and pronouns to be used and respected be free to say so anytime, anywhere? Where and when is it "not OK" for them to do so? Should they not feel welcome and safe and respected in church, in school, in your neighborhood--where/when is it not OK? Genuine question.

They are not safe from eye rolls! Genuine answer.

Got it, so you’re teaching your kid to be a jerk. Because when a person says, “Hi, I’m Kevin,” and you roll your eyes, you’re a jerk, and there’s no other word for it.

If a person doesn’t look like Kevin at all, yes, I will roll my eyes later in private. Not to “his” face of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If rules must be put in place just to make you feel affirmed and if “deadnaming” and “misgendering” feel like a form of murder, and if you need the whole world to enforce your perception of yourself, perhaps you should consider why your self-identity is so incredibly fragile.

Most of us don’t have this problem. We aren’t going to melt or die if someone uses the wrong name or pronoun. We are totally secure in our identity. We don’t need anyone to affirm it. So why is your identity so brittle and fragile and weak? Have you asked yourself this question?

this has nothing to do with identity - it's a power trip. making others do exactly what you want elevates you above them. the people who everybody is afraid to offend are the most powerful.

Excellent point. Power move

[Anonymous]

My MS DD declared that she liked girls to me, but a few months later I overheard her talking to a friend of hers that she liked a boy in their class. So... I guess she's Bi? Or still figuring it out? Honestly, it makes no difference to me, I just love getting to know her better as she's figuring out who she is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:mail delivery person is still stupid

Nobody says that. It's "mail carrier".

[Anonymous]

Wait, we're supposed to say "people who can become pregnant" instead of "women" so as not to offend trans men, even though it means implying that infertile women are not women?
How is that progress?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Um, didn't you frequently talk about dating and sex when you were a middle schooler? Didn't you frequently talk about trappings related to gender, such as who had great clothes, who had great hair, who was allowed to wear makeup, etc.?

So if it was OK for you to talk with your friends about topics related to sex and dating and gender, that was fine--because you were sticking to mostly straight and heteronormative topics?

But somehow it's not OK for middle schoolers to talk about dating, sex and topics related to gender...just because they are discussing more than just straight and heteronormative topics?

My brother came out as gay when he was 28 years old. He was gay as a middle schooler but didn't talk about it with his family, friends or anyone because he was afraid of being ostracized and even harmed or killed. And you think it's a bad thing for kids who are gay now to be comfortable talking about it? You'd rather they live in fear and silence and contemplate suicide, like my brother did?

No, almost no one ever talked about dating or gender topics when I was in middle school here. I had a "boyfriend," and it was considered kind of taboo and gross. I'm 47.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:mail delivery person is still stupid

Nobody says that. It's "mail carrier".

It's mail man or mail lady for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait, we're supposed to say "people who can become pregnant" instead of "women" so as not to offend trans men, even though it means implying that infertile women are not women?
How is that progress?

You can say women. You might get some flack in chronically online spaces where they use language like “people with uteruses” etc but this isn’t actually a huge movement in real life like some people make it out to be. It’s just another boogeyman designed to rile you up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MS kids have always talked about this stuff in one form or another, it's just taking this particular form now based on what is happening culturally. I can see it being annoying at times, but there is now way it is one tenth as toxic and oppressive as the MS culture I was in, where there was a ton of pressure on girls to be sexually active even from an incredibly young age (often before they even had periods), and the pressure on boys was to project this gross toxic masculinity that was focused on being wanted by girls and not on their own actual feelings or attractions. It was horrible. The 90s were awful in this regard.

I do think the current pressure in some circles to explore gender non-conformity or non-heterosexuality can be a bit much at times. There are certainly plenty of kids who are playing with these identities and sexualities at a young age who will ultimately just be cis and heterosexual. But since there is WAY less pressure on kids to actual have sex, and since the gender expressions that people are being pushed towards are much less harmful than the ones I was pushed towards, I view the whole thing as a net positive. I'd rather see a 12 yr old girl feel pressure to experiment with being non-binary as expressed in her clothes, than see her feel pressured to heavily sexualize herself via hyper-feminine, porn-influenced presentations, AND to feel pressure to offer her up for sexual experimentation with male peers. There's just no comparison for me -- this is better.

Obviously the ideal would be if kids this age were not pressured to do or be anything, if they could just be allowed to come to sexuality and gender expression in their own time without this level of pressure and scrutiny. Certainly I try to cultivate that environment in my own house for my own kids. But if they are going to feel pressure, I'd rather have it be this occasionally annoying but otherwise pretty reasonable and age appropriate pressure to experiment with sexuality and gender, without actually having sex.

I just remember being a tween and having there be absolutely no room for me to just figure this stuff out myself. I think there is at least a little more space now. That's good!

You keep saying this, but is there any evidence that this is true? This has not been my experience. Girls are much more likely to be allowed to sleep over with other girls — there have been questions about this on this forum (re: what to do about lgbt kids sleeping over together).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait, we're supposed to say "people who can become pregnant" instead of "women" so as not to offend trans men, even though it means implying that infertile women are not women?
How is that progress?

You can say women. You might get some flack in chronically online spaces where they use language like “people with uteruses” etc but this isn’t actually a huge movement in real life like some people make it out to be. It’s just another boogeyman designed to rile you up.

Ironic since pp was reacting to someone who had to deal with it “in real life.”