I am so sick of talking about sexuality, gender, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, didn't you frequently talk about dating and sex when you were a middle schooler? Didn't you frequently talk about trappings related to gender, such as who had great clothes, who had great hair, who was allowed to wear makeup, etc.?

So if it was OK for you to talk with your friends about topics related to sex and dating and gender, that was fine--because you were sticking to mostly straight and heteronormative topics?

But somehow it's not OK for middle schoolers to talk about dating, sex and topics related to gender...just because they are discussing more than just straight and heteronormative topics?

My brother came out as gay when he was 28 years old. He was gay as a middle schooler but didn't talk about it with his family, friends or anyone because he was afraid of being ostracized and even harmed or killed. And you think it's a bad thing for kids who are gay now to be comfortable talking about it? You'd rather they live in fear and silence and contemplate suicide, like my brother did?

OP here. I am truly sorry that your brother went through this. No one deserves to be silenced or to live in fear; I did not say that and never would.

I grew up with a gay family member whose partner died of AIDS. I remember all too well the sadness and fear everyone went through at the time of diagnosis and illness -- separately because, of course, no one talked *really* about it back then.

I am very glad that these can be topics of open conversation in many circles, but I think the constant media focus, kid focus on the topic, etc. can be a bit overdone at times. But: I am not gay. Or trans. So, really, my opinion and feelings are not what needs to be considered here. I was really looking for a reality check, as I don't know many other parents well enough to discuss in person.

And, again, I am sorry for what your brother experienced. I hope he is able to live more freely now.

PP here. Thank you for sharing these kind thoughts. I agree to you that it is A Lot right now, but when I think of a pendulum swinging, I am reassured that it usually settles toward the middle. But you have to understand that where we started was a pendulum swing that--even in the 1990s--my brother thought he was completely alone. He had no one to talk to. If he had even had one friend, or one sibling of a friend, or one cousin, or one teacher he looked up to--someone, ANYONE--he would not have felt so alone, so abnormal, so isolated, so miserable. If we are now erring on the side of talking and normalizing it to the point of it being a bit of a fad to some kids, yeah that's problematic: but it's not as problematic as dead silence, and I do mean dead unfortunately in the cases of some desperate teenagers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is a rising 7th grader and luckily not quite there yet. He does inundate me with all the videogame and YouTube talk though!
He seems to think it’s stupid to have so many genders - he was talking about the latest Wings of Fire book and how “they now have pronouns, oh no!” I just tell him to be very careful when discussing it with friends for fear to be labeled a bigot or whatnot. But I secretly agree with him lol

To add: I actually went so far as to tell him that it’s a fad for 99% of people talking about it. If he is the 1% who is serious about it he should come to me and I will support him. But if he just wants to fit in - fine but I won’t be going out of my way to support him, just not disparage. And he shouldn’t dismiss other people who think it’s serious for them even if he thinks it’s not. And he shouldn’t question others, except at home with me we can roll eyes together
He knows society is not too tolerant to all the homophobic and transphobic stuff, at least not where we live.

Try 10%: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna16556

Kind of proves my point, this article, no? 20% identify as lgbtq, really?

Yet you persist in your use of 99%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is a rising 7th grader and luckily not quite there yet. He does inundate me with all the videogame and YouTube talk though!
He seems to think it’s stupid to have so many genders - he was talking about the latest Wings of Fire book and how “they now have pronouns, oh no!” I just tell him to be very careful when discussing it with friends for fear to be labeled a bigot or whatnot. But I secretly agree with him lol

To add: I actually went so far as to tell him that it’s a fad for 99% of people talking about it. If he is the 1% who is serious about it he should come to me and I will support him. But if he just wants to fit in - fine but I won’t be going out of my way to support him, just not disparage. And he shouldn’t dismiss other people who think it’s serious for them even if he thinks it’s not. And he shouldn’t question others, except at home with me we can roll eyes together
He knows society is not too tolerant to all the homophobic and transphobic stuff, at least not where we live.

Try 10%: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna16556

Kind of proves my point, this article, no? 20% identify as lgbtq, really?

Yet you persist in your use of 99%.

You misread the PP. They said 99% of the kids talking about it [obsessively], not 99% of all kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, when you say you're so sick of talking about sexuality and gender, you mean you are so sick of kids talking about sexuality and gender?

Because you definitely don't have to talk about it if nobody brings it up with you (beyond your obligatory sex talks), and you definitely don't have to involve yourself in their conversations.

OP here. I overhear some conversations because I am often the driver to events, and also host kid events. Also: they chat online (loudly; we have a small house, so it is impossible not to hear!), etc.

And: my kid brings the topics up to me when confused or concerned about something. For that, I do consider myself lucky! I would never, in a million years say, "Don't talk to me about this!"

Yeah but you can subtly share your thoughts about it. Like, I am not going to take all this stuff seriously, though I respect their need to discuss it and think about it. But no way I am going to use a new pronoun unless my kid is super serious and insisting etc etc.
i think I will be able to tell if he is just following his peers or there’s really something going on

I would have said the same thing about my son. No one suspected it, not even the gay friends/family/teachers. He came out in college.

DP. The thing that’s so difficult about this from a parenting perspective is that kids can sense your doubt (or at least lack of enthusiasm) and the messaging they’re getting about this online is that that equates to transphobia or homophobia. If you want to maintain any level of trust with your kid, you have to be really, really careful in discussing these topics.

I have thought about this. Yes it seems like if you aren’t enthusiastic you are a horrible terrible awful person. Silence is violence and all that.
Honestly, I think two things. First, my kid seems to be pretty gender conforming, always was, not a jock but just comfortable being a boy if you know what I mean, subtle things. Second, I am human and am entitled to my own opinions. Not shutting down conversations and not raging at these topics is enough parenting here. Kids learn by reading out subtle approvals and disapprovals; if it helps him avoid falling for the fad - so be it. I am pretty sure I will notice and would have noticed long ago if he were non conforming in any way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

OP here. Yes -- thank you, PP. You summed up well what I feel I am often witnessing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, didn't you frequently talk about dating and sex when you were a middle schooler? Didn't you frequently talk about trappings related to gender, such as who had great clothes, who had great hair, who was allowed to wear makeup, etc.?

So if it was OK for you to talk with your friends about topics related to sex and dating and gender, that was fine--because you were sticking to mostly straight and heteronormative topics?

But somehow it's not OK for middle schoolers to talk about dating, sex and topics related to gender...just because they are discussing more than just straight and heteronormative topics?

My brother came out as gay when he was 28 years old. He was gay as a middle schooler but didn't talk about it with his family, friends or anyone because he was afraid of being ostracized and even harmed or killed. And you think it's a bad thing for kids who are gay now to be comfortable talking about it? You'd rather they live in fear and silence and contemplate suicide, like my brother did?

That's awful about your brother, and I'm sorry. I am sure his experience was unfortunately not unique and that makes me sad.

However, I doubt that 50% of the middle school girls in my neighborhood are actually trans or gay. It is, for many of these girls, a fad and a way to express how uncomfortable they are with the changes their bodies are going through and how they dont feel they fit into the mold of a straight, girly girl. And now, they have a label they can put on it, to feel more sure of themselves and to explain to themselves why they are uncomfortable with their body's changes. I think it's natural, and fine. But it's also a fad, and 50% of 12 year old girls are not , in reality, trans.

I mean, OK, so they're talking about it. You know, like TALKING? If your tween or teen starts asking you about hormone therapy or surgery, then you can be concerned. But in the meantime, they're talking. I know girls in middle school who coped with the changes in their body by developing eating disorders, because that is a form of controlling the changes that feel out of your control, and getting parental attention that otherwise they felt they were losing. Would you prefer that to talking?

Of course not. I should have clarified that i'm not OP. And as I said in my post- "I think it's natural, and fine". It doesn't mean I think they're all trans or all gay or all pansexual or all asexual. But I think its 100% normal for them to be talking about their bodies and their sexuality or their lack of sexuality (as of yet, for most of them) in a way that fits in with the current dialogue about sexuality in the media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, didn't you frequently talk about dating and sex when you were a middle schooler? Didn't you frequently talk about trappings related to gender, such as who had great clothes, who had great hair, who was allowed to wear makeup, etc.?

So if it was OK for you to talk with your friends about topics related to sex and dating and gender, that was fine--because you were sticking to mostly straight and heteronormative topics?

But somehow it's not OK for middle schoolers to talk about dating, sex and topics related to gender...just because they are discussing more than just straight and heteronormative topics?

My brother came out as gay when he was 28 years old. He was gay as a middle schooler but didn't talk about it with his family, friends or anyone because he was afraid of being ostracized and even harmed or killed. And you think it's a bad thing for kids who are gay now to be comfortable talking about it? You'd rather they live in fear and silence and contemplate suicide, like my brother did?

That's awful about your brother, and I'm sorry. I am sure his experience was unfortunately not unique and that makes me sad.

However, I doubt that 50% of the middle school girls in my neighborhood are actually trans or gay. It is, for many of these girls, a fad and a way to express how uncomfortable they are with the changes their bodies are going through and how they dont feel they fit into the mold of a straight, girly girl. And now, they have a label they can put on it, to feel more sure of themselves and to explain to themselves why they are uncomfortable with their body's changes. I think it's natural, and fine. But it's also a fad, and 50% of 12 year old girls are not , in reality, trans.

I mean, OK, so they're talking about it. You know, like TALKING? If your tween or teen starts asking you about hormone therapy or surgery, then you can be concerned. But in the meantime, they're talking. I know girls in middle school who coped with the changes in their body by developing eating disorders, because that is a form of controlling the changes that feel out of your control, and getting parental attention that otherwise they felt they were losing. Would you prefer that to talking?

Of course not. I should have clarified that i'm not OP. And as I said in my post- "I think it's natural, and fine". It doesn't mean I think they're all trans or all gay or all pansexual or all asexual. But I think its 100% normal for them to be talking about their bodies and their sexuality or their lack of sexuality (as of yet, for most of them) in a way that fits in with the current dialogue about sexuality in the media.

Do you or do you not feel some level of responsibility with how your children are exposed to "the media"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

OP here. Yes -- thank you, PP. You summed up well what I feel I am often witnessing.

There was talk about this among my DD's group in 6th and 7th grade. My DD would tell me how annoying she found it all. In her view, it was kids just trying to be "different" or "interesting." But by 8-9 grade, it mostly seems to be over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, didn't you frequently talk about dating and sex when you were a middle schooler? Didn't you frequently talk about trappings related to gender, such as who had great clothes, who had great hair, who was allowed to wear makeup, etc.?

So if it was OK for you to talk with your friends about topics related to sex and dating and gender, that was fine--because you were sticking to mostly straight and heteronormative topics?

But somehow it's not OK for middle schoolers to talk about dating, sex and topics related to gender...just because they are discussing more than just straight and heteronormative topics?

My brother came out as gay when he was 28 years old. He was gay as a middle schooler but didn't talk about it with his family, friends or anyone because he was afraid of being ostracized and even harmed or killed. And you think it's a bad thing for kids who are gay now to be comfortable talking about it? You'd rather they live in fear and silence and contemplate suicide, like my brother did?

That's awful about your brother, and I'm sorry. I am sure his experience was unfortunately not unique and that makes me sad.

However, I doubt that 50% of the middle school girls in my neighborhood are actually trans or gay. It is, for many of these girls, a fad and a way to express how uncomfortable they are with the changes their bodies are going through and how they dont feel they fit into the mold of a straight, girly girl. And now, they have a label they can put on it, to feel more sure of themselves and to explain to themselves why they are uncomfortable with their body's changes. I think it's natural, and fine. But it's also a fad, and 50% of 12 year old girls are not , in reality, trans.

I mean, OK, so they're talking about it. You know, like TALKING? If your tween or teen starts asking you about hormone therapy or surgery, then you can be concerned. But in the meantime, they're talking. I know girls in middle school who coped with the changes in their body by developing eating disorders, because that is a form of controlling the changes that feel out of your control, and getting parental attention that otherwise they felt they were losing. Would you prefer that to talking?

Of course not. I should have clarified that i'm not OP. And as I said in my post- "I think it's natural, and fine". It doesn't mean I think they're all trans or all gay or all pansexual or all asexual. But I think its 100% normal for them to be talking about their bodies and their sexuality or their lack of sexuality (as of yet, for most of them) in a way that fits in with the current dialogue about sexuality in the media.

Do you or do you not feel some level of responsibility with how your children are exposed to "the media"?

DP. I can (and do) control my own kid’s exposure to “the media,” but I can’t do a thing about what her friends are exposed to. And it’s completely developmentally appropriate for kids this age to care way more about what their friends/peers say and think rather than their parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is a rising 7th grader and luckily not quite there yet. He does inundate me with all the videogame and YouTube talk though!
He seems to think it’s stupid to have so many genders - he was talking about the latest Wings of Fire book and how “they now have pronouns, oh no!” I just tell him to be very careful when discussing it with friends for fear to be labeled a bigot or whatnot. But I secretly agree with him lol

To add: I actually went so far as to tell him that it’s a fad for 99% of people talking about it. If he is the 1% who is serious about it he should come to me and I will support him. But if he just wants to fit in - fine but I won’t be going out of my way to support him, just not disparage. And he shouldn’t dismiss other people who think it’s serious for them even if he thinks it’s not. And he shouldn’t question others, except at home with me we can roll eyes together
He knows society is not too tolerant to all the homophobic and transphobic stuff, at least not where we live.

Try 10%: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna16556

Kind of proves my point, this article, no? 20% identify as lgbtq, really?

Yet you persist in your use of 99%.

99% of those WHO TALK ABOUT IT (them possibly being transgender etc)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, didn't you frequently talk about dating and sex when you were a middle schooler? Didn't you frequently talk about trappings related to gender, such as who had great clothes, who had great hair, who was allowed to wear makeup, etc.?

So if it was OK for you to talk with your friends about topics related to sex and dating and gender, that was fine--because you were sticking to mostly straight and heteronormative topics?

But somehow it's not OK for middle schoolers to talk about dating, sex and topics related to gender...just because they are discussing more than just straight and heteronormative topics?

My brother came out as gay when he was 28 years old. He was gay as a middle schooler but didn't talk about it with his family, friends or anyone because he was afraid of being ostracized and even harmed or killed. And you think it's a bad thing for kids who are gay now to be comfortable talking about it? You'd rather they live in fear and silence and contemplate suicide, like my brother did?

That's awful about your brother, and I'm sorry. I am sure his experience was unfortunately not unique and that makes me sad.

However, I doubt that 50% of the middle school girls in my neighborhood are actually trans or gay. It is, for many of these girls, a fad and a way to express how uncomfortable they are with the changes their bodies are going through and how they dont feel they fit into the mold of a straight, girly girl. And now, they have a label they can put on it, to feel more sure of themselves and to explain to themselves why they are uncomfortable with their body's changes. I think it's natural, and fine. But it's also a fad, and 50% of 12 year old girls are not , in reality, trans.

I mean, OK, so they're talking about it. You know, like TALKING? If your tween or teen starts asking you about hormone therapy or surgery, then you can be concerned. But in the meantime, they're talking. I know girls in middle school who coped with the changes in their body by developing eating disorders, because that is a form of controlling the changes that feel out of your control, and getting parental attention that otherwise they felt they were losing. Would you prefer that to talking?

Of course not. I should have clarified that i'm not OP. And as I said in my post- "I think it's natural, and fine". It doesn't mean I think they're all trans or all gay or all pansexual or all asexual. But I think its 100% normal for them to be talking about their bodies and their sexuality or their lack of sexuality (as of yet, for most of them) in a way that fits in with the current dialogue about sexuality in the media.

Do you or do you not feel some level of responsibility with how your children are exposed to "the media"?

I feel like you're going for a "gotcha" moment with me, but, I'm not sure why. Yes, I think it's normal for 12-13 year olds to have watched the news, or to have read NBC online, or to have heard friends talking about actors like Elliot Page. I think it would be abnormal for 12-13 year olds to NOT consume any mainstream media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, when you say you're so sick of talking about sexuality and gender, you mean you are so sick of kids talking about sexuality and gender?

Because you definitely don't have to talk about it if nobody brings it up with you (beyond your obligatory sex talks), and you definitely don't have to involve yourself in their conversations.

OP here. I overhear some conversations because I am often the driver to events, and also host kid events. Also: they chat online (loudly; we have a small house, so it is impossible not to hear!), etc.

And: my kid brings the topics up to me when confused or concerned about something. For that, I do consider myself lucky! I would never, in a million years say, "Don't talk to me about this!"

Yeah but you can subtly share your thoughts about it. Like, I am not going to take all this stuff seriously, though I respect their need to discuss it and think about it. But no way I am going to use a new pronoun unless my kid is super serious and insisting etc etc.
i think I will be able to tell if he is just following his peers or there’s really something going on

Thank you. That is helpful. I am learning that I'm a better listener than sharer of my feelings w/my kid on these subjects.

I think as long as you are not afraid to share your true feelings like you posted them here (and I see nothing wrong with them!) in an appropriate way for you should be fine. I feel like many parents are afraid to even subtly disagree with all the gender obsession for the fear of their kids rejecting them or calling them transphobic or whatever. It shouldn’t be the case. People are afraid to call out the absurdity… Emperor’s new clothes anyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What planet and what decade did middle schooler not talk about dating/who they like?

Not the OP, but in my experience, this group of middle schoolers is not talking about who they like, as in this person or that person. It’s more like they feel pressured, starting at the age of 11-12, to figure out and publicly identify both their gender identity and sexual orientation. And it’s all very hypothetical at this point, i.e. not based on actual crushes, but more about which group you want to align yourself with based on styles and tastes. This absolutely has not been a widespread thing in decades past.

Really? Do when you were growing up 11-12 year olds who were not interested in dating were not pressured to identify “who they liked”? They were not pressured to “go together”. 7th- 8th graders were not pressured to kiss somebody? Nobody played spin the bottle even if they didn’t care to kiss anybody?

Girls were not called tomboys, boys were not called “Tom girls”.

Boys were called “gay” or “f@g” if they did not act jock?

Your just remember it in a way you think is “normal” because hetero pressure is just normal to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is a rising 7th grader and luckily not quite there yet. He does inundate me with all the videogame and YouTube talk though!
He seems to think it’s stupid to have so many genders - he was talking about the latest Wings of Fire book and how “they now have pronouns, oh no!” I just tell him to be very careful when discussing it with friends for fear to be labeled a bigot or whatnot. But I secretly agree with him lol

To add: I actually went so far as to tell him that it’s a fad for 99% of people talking about it. If he is the 1% who is serious about it he should come to me and I will support him. But if he just wants to fit in - fine but I won’t be going out of my way to support him, just not disparage. And he shouldn’t dismiss other people who think it’s serious for them even if he thinks it’s not. And he shouldn’t question others, except at home with me we can roll eyes together
He knows society is not too tolerant to all the homophobic and transphobic stuff, at least not where we live.

Do you think that society should tolerate homophobia and transphobia, when it literally leads to violence, murder, bullying and keeping people from getting jobs and housing, etc.? Serious question. I genuinely want to know your answer.

I am not sure I understand your question? There should be no “phobias” ideally. And definitely no violence. What I meant was - he shouldn’t say things that can be interpreted as phobic, such as “you are just falling for the fad”, even though it may be true. He should NOT say it, period.

Thank you for clarifying. I did not mean to put you on the spot, I genuinely could not tell if you wanted homophobia and transphobia to be "tolerated," even though they cause people to be directly harmed.

No, I am just against labeling any thought dissenting from “it’s so cool to talk about genders and pronouns every time, everywhere” as trans- or whatever phobia.